Knights vs Deathguard, How do I kill mortarian!

[Brother Achiles]

Hi guys

 

I am going up against mortarian this week in a game for the first time. Is he as scary as people make him out to be? How do we go about killing him, massed shots etc ? The following is what I thought I would take in a 1500 point game

 

House raven Castellan

 

Gallant

2 x Helverin

Not sure on house yet for these three

 

Loyal 32

 

Other option I was thinking was dropping the gallant and a helverin for a crusader and some mortars but thought the gallant might be a good distraction and if it gets into combat first with morty then could put him down before he gets a chance to strike back.

 

The castellan has been put as raven so that I can use the reroll ones strat in first round of shooting vs him and hopefully knock him down quite abit.

[Focslain]

If you can get first turn that will be a great help, otherwise DG have two very good defensive powers and if he gets them off it will be very hard to kill morty.

 

Those are:

Cloud of Flies: This unit is your only target for shooting until it's dead.

Miasma of Pestilence: -1 to hit this unit.

 

If you have a loyal 32, one of those 32 is best to be a psyker to give you at least some defense.

 

Out side of that mass fire and if you have a clean shot hit morty with your shieldbreakers, that way he only has his FNP.

 

He is also a good target for your lance, the rest of your weapons should focus on the rest of the army. Lots of multi-damage weapons would be nice, so the helverins are a solid choice.

 

The gallent may not be a good choice, a Warden would be better since depending on the rest of morty's force he could just bog it down.

 

Too that do you have an idea of his force?

[Gederas]

Having played Mortarion:

Yes. Lots of shots. It doesn't MATTER if he has a 3+/4++/5+++ and Toughness 7 if you throw 300 shots at him :lol:

But yes, Cloud of Flies and Miasma of Pestilence are not good for you if they're used on Mortarion. Even more so if Putrescent Vitality is used on him (though, with Knights, that's less of an issue).

 

In regards to the Gallant: No. A Gallant cannot do enough damage to reliably kill Mortarion, but HE can sure kill that Knight very quickly.

[Focslain]

Only way a Gallent can stand up to Morty is with the Adminatium Knight trait and the Sanctuary relic and only if morty is rolling sub-par. 

[synthaside]

I actually found the way to kill Morty was to throw Everything and the kitchen sink at him , Ranger rifles ,  Even Rad Carbines , which despite wounding on 6's  are two damage ;-)  and thus excellent against his feel no pain.

Morty is almost a bane to a pure knight list ... he can smite he can fight and he's as fast as you are ..  viable options are anything that could kill another knight .

[Stray]

A House Terryn Gallant with the Paragon Gauntlet will kill him reliably (just on average dice - no hot or cold rolling) in a single round if it uses the fight twice strat. Give him the extra attack trait, and they'll do it even if Morty gets Miasma up for the -1 to hit.

 

The vitality power is irrelevant in this case as the Gauntlet could care less about the extra toughness.

 

Of course, you better get to attack first (which again should be possible as Terryn to be fair with their charge shenanigans).

 

None of the above takes in account additional things like death grip etc which you also have available if needed.

[Focslain]

A House Terryn Gallant with the Paragon Gauntlet will kill him reliably (just on average dice - no hot or cold rolling) in a single round if it uses the fight twice strat. Give him the extra attack trait, and they'll do it even if Morty gets Miasma up for the -1 to hit.

 

The vitality power is irrelevant in this case as the Gauntlet could care less about the extra toughness.

 

Of course, you better get to attack first (which again should be possible as Terryn to be fair with their charge shenanigans).

 

None of the above takes in account additional things like death grip etc which you also have available if needed.

 

While this could work, it relays on the gallent getting the charge, which if morty's player isn't daft, will not happen. 

 

Another reason to get intel on the rest of the army because DG can put down some decent blocking units. As well as having more then three plans for taking out morty.

 

Also this might sound weird, but is relevant, can a flying hive tyrant land on the second floor of a ruin? 

[Stray]

 

A House Terryn Gallant with the Paragon Gauntlet will kill him reliably (just on average dice - no hot or cold rolling) in a single round if it uses the fight twice strat. Give him the extra attack trait, and they'll do it even if Morty gets Miasma up for the -1 to hit.

 

The vitality power is irrelevant in this case as the Gauntlet could care less about the extra toughness.

 

Of course, you better get to attack first (which again should be possible as Terryn to be fair with their charge shenanigans).

 

None of the above takes in account additional things like death grip etc which you also have available if needed.

 

While this could work, it relays on the gallent getting the charge, which if morty's player isn't daft, will not happen. 

 

 

Hmm. Respectfully, I have to disagree. Couldn't the exact same thing be said about the Knight player? What makes Mortarion any more difficult to charge than a Knight in this match up?

 

Additionally, I can't think of any significant charge advantages that Mortarion has over the Gallant (maybe fly in certain circumstances), while the Gallant on the other hand has a longer average charge range (thanks to the house trait), and can advance and charge (thanks to full tilt). Quite honestly unless one player is vastly more capable than the other, the advantage is decidedly with the Gallant here.

 

Unless I'm missing something? (Which is quite possible :P)

[hermanista]

Mortarion + Warp time + VoTLW tears knights to bits. Add other strats from the deamon book to taste.

 

Having been on the receiving end of it previously

[Stray]

Mortarion + Warp time + VoTLW tears knights to bits. Add other strats from the deamon book to taste.

 

Having been on the receiving end of it previously

 

Screen your Knights (if you're taking troops, this should really be a given - especially if you know you're facing an opposing unit like this), and in this case, at the very least, you're forcing him to choose between being trampled by a Gallant, or shot to pieces by the Castellan - because one or the other is going to happen should he charge in this scenario.

 

During the BAO, a correctly screened Castellan handily blew away both Morty and Magnus, tag-teaming. They're nasty units (hell, I can field them myself in a Renegade list), but not nearly as unkillable as is being made out - especially if you're bringing Knights.  

 

You've certainly got all the tools you need - don't lose the psychological battle before you ever get to the table

 

Hell, punish his Psychic shenanigans with your essentially free Culexus as well now. (I still think this is adding Edam on top of Gouda, but it's legal, so you may as well).

[Brother Achiles]

He is playing a purely death guard list. Im sure there will be pox walkers, plague marines, termis etc but being pure death guard he cant warp time can he. The new chapter approved rules with whoever deploys first can choose to go first etc can also add in deciding on a strategy by knowing whether morty will get closer to me first so deploy further back in that case. The gallant is more a distraction then anything. He no doubt will go for the gallant if its moving up the board leaving the raven castellan to shoot him to bits. The 32 will be right in front of the castellan blocking off a successful charge which will guarantee two turns of shooting potentially. The crusader is an option instead of the gallant and a helverin but as said, if the gallant gets a charge in first turn which can be possible, then morty should die after the castellan more than likely takes a number of wounds off with the raven stratagem.

[Focslain]

 

 

A House Terryn Gallant with the Paragon Gauntlet will kill him reliably (just on average dice - no hot or cold rolling) in a single round if it uses the fight twice strat. Give him the extra attack trait, and they'll do it even if Morty gets Miasma up for the -1 to hit.

 

The vitality power is irrelevant in this case as the Gauntlet could care less about the extra toughness.

 

Of course, you better get to attack first (which again should be possible as Terryn to be fair with their charge shenanigans).

 

None of the above takes in account additional things like death grip etc which you also have available if needed.

 

While this could work, it relays on the gallent getting the charge, which if morty's player isn't daft, will not happen. 

 

 

Hmm. Respectfully, I have to disagree. Couldn't the exact same thing be said about the Knight player? What makes Mortarion any more difficult to charge than a Knight in this match up?

 

Additionally, I can't think of any significant charge advantages that Mortarion has over the Gallant (maybe fly in certain circumstances), while the Gallant on the other hand has a longer average charge range (thanks to the house trait), and can advance and charge (thanks to full tilt). Quite honestly unless one player is vastly more capable than the other, the advantage is decidedly with the Gallant here.

 

Unless I'm missing something? (Which is quite possible )

 

 

Cheap durable screens (poxwalkers) and with fly if there is a multi-floor ruin then the gallent can't charge without the use of CP and even then you can't use the gauntlet. 

 

With the adding of the castellan there is an added avenue, but if morty goes first then the CoF/Miasma combo goes off and he has a turn or two to weaken the gallent and/or the castellan. Plus with Miasma that makes a moderate roll into a bad one. 

 

I agree that one-on-one the gallent has a good chance of taking morty in a straight fight barring some crappy dice rolls. But this battle is not one-on-one and DG has some decent combos. If the gallent gets a charge against morty that telling of the DG player. That gallent will not get to morty at full health if at all depending on the rest of the DG army composition.

 

Which brings me to a prior question, other then morty do we know what is in the rest of the DG list. Cause if the DG player made a meh list then your more then good.

 

meh list = small amounts of infantry.

 

Edit: Looks like a none meh list then.

 

 

 

The new chapter approved rules with whoever deploys first can choose to go first

That rule was in the base book at release, the CA rule is the person that finishes deploying first gets +1 to the roll to go first. Unless the mission has stated otherwise.

 

Also your going to have to back the castellan into a corner and screen a bit to keep the terminators from dropping too close. You have the right ideas, it's just hoping in the dice at this point.

[shanewatts]

FYI - Cloud of Flies can't be used on Mortarion, it must be used on DG Infantry. So as long as you can draw LoS to him, the Castellan should tear him a new one easily.

[Focslain]

FYI - Cloud of Flies can't be used on Mortarion, it must be used on DG Infantry. So as long as you can draw LoS to him, the Castellan should tear him a new one easily.

 

Only if his the closest unit. The issue with cloud of flies is that you use it on, say a, unit of poxwalkers, then cast miasma on them and your forced to shot the poxwalkers at a -1 to hit. The combo is to give him a screen.

[Lysere]

 

FYI - Cloud of Flies can't be used on Mortarion, it must be used on DG Infantry. So as long as you can draw LoS to him, the Castellan should tear him a new one easily.

 

Only if his the closest unit. The issue with cloud of flies is that you use it on, say a, unit of poxwalkers, then cast miasma on them and your forced to shot the poxwalkers at a -1 to hit. The combo is to give him a screen.

 

 

Cloud of flies doesn't make the unit the only possible target, it makes them benefit from a better version of the character rule since it can't be ignored by things that can freely target characters. They even have it in the Errata in regards to how it works with characters making the intent clear.

 

Otherwise Morty is just like any other tough model, focused fire with decent weapons. Personally my Valiant has done the most work on him in the past since the auto hitting dmg 2 re-rolling wounds is solid, and charging a Valiant is never really safe. Half the battle with deathguard and primarchs is just positioning so you can maximize your firepower without leaving yourself to open to things like warp time.

[Stray]

Yeah, I'm still not seeing it. He is just not as tough as people are making out.

 

You have a Castellan on the field, so Mortarion essentially has to move up and deal with that, or lose two thirds of his wounds (on average), to that unit alone. The Castellan can be rocking a 3++ all day, and you can't pin it down in CC with infantry either. Screen it correctly, and you've really got no option but to try and beat that 3++

 

Cloud of Flies doesn't stop Morty being shot, it merely makes it harder to target his screening unit. No-one is forced to target a unit under the effect of cloud of flies, you merely are restricted FROM targeting them, UNLESS they are the closest shooting target.

 

If the Castellan is allowed more than one round of shooting... you've a dead Primarch. If Morty closes (which is where he's most dangerous), counter charge with the Gallant and you've a dead Primarch again. 

 

Worried about Miasma? Field a Culexus. Hell, place him near the Gallant (for example) and if Morty does charge, spend 2CP and play Soul Horror - Morty now fights last, even IF he charged. Dead Primarch again.

 

At that point, you just mop up.

[Focslain]

 

 

FYI - Cloud of Flies can't be used on Mortarion, it must be used on DG Infantry. So as long as you can draw LoS to him, the Castellan should tear him a new one easily.

 

Only if his the closest unit. The issue with cloud of flies is that you use it on, say a, unit of poxwalkers, then cast miasma on them and your forced to shot the poxwalkers at a -1 to hit. The combo is to give him a screen.

 

 

Cloud of flies doesn't make the unit the only possible target, it makes them benefit from a better version of the character rule since it can't be ignored by things that can freely target characters. They even have it in the Errata in regards to how it works with characters making the intent clear.

 

Otherwise Morty is just like any other tough model, focused fire with decent weapons. Personally my Valiant has done the most work on him in the past since the auto hitting dmg 2 re-rolling wounds is solid, and charging a Valiant is never really safe. Half the battle with deathguard and primarchs is just positioning so you can maximize your firepower without leaving yourself to open to things like warp time.

 

 

I may have to smack someone then. There was a strat that caused the unit to be fired on unless the other target was closer. He tended to combo that with miasma to get his army closer without worry of taking fire.

[shanewatts]

Focslain - Yeah, it sounds like someone was cheating you.

[Prot]

I’m sure it was a mistake. I’ve seen people misread Cloud of flies many times. But yes, he can’t benefit from it.

Honestly Mortarion on his own is terrible. You only really see him in competitive play wth Magnus buffing the heck out of him, and then sending him in like a cannonball. Even that list is not doing as well with all the poison.

As a Knight player you can ally in some simple Deathwatch with stormbolters and erase any Flymarch with poison. But as others have said he’s really not hard to kill especially with Knights. If you get first turn, before he gets miasma off, you’ll definitely do it just that much easier.

I’ve played tournaments with Mortarion in my Deathguard. I’ve gone 5-1 with him in a ITC GT... the truth is he was always my red herring... he just absorbed fire power, died before making close combat and that was it.