Darkshrouds - the case for a rethink?

[Angel of Solitude]

Everybody knows the benefit of the Darkshroud - a 6", -1 to hit bubble. For a long time, it's been an auto-include for me, but I'm starting to rethink that.

 

My recent experiences of playing the Darkshroud is that it is nothing better than a poor man's distraction carnifex, and (perhaps because I'm not the most experienced player) causes me maneuvering challenges. Typically:

• If I get first turn, then it advances to give 4++ but contributes nothing to the offense;
• If I don't get first turn, then it is usually the first thing to be destroyed (and if I'm really unlucky, it explodes...)

After this exact thing happening to me last night, I started to think that the -1 to hit bubble is actually not as helpful as first thought, and so perhaps it is time to think about re-investing those points elsewhere. Off the top of my head:

• Upgrade the usual scout squads to Intercessors;
• Bring another Intercessor squad and scout squad
• Bring another bike squad;
• ...

What are other people's thoughts - do people get more success from their Darkshroud than I do?

[G8Keeper]

My 'Shroud is often a huge thorn in my opponents sides.  It regularly survives a huge onslaught of fire on a couple of wounds, sometimes I roll well and it's even funnier.  The trick I think is to use it's benefits early on to castle up and maximise the -1, especially on Dark Talons for the -2.

[Hantheman]

Yeah I know what you mean. It's not exactly cheap for zero offensive output in a game all about attacking and alpha strikes. The problem is, space marines in general are so fragile you need to protect them. I've started dropping them from my non-ravenwing lists, but keep them in my ravenwing

[Berzul]

The thing with the Shroud for me is the same with our Terminators, our Veterans and our Bikes: "Well, if I am not going to use it, why not just play vanilla marines?"

Sans Grim Resolve, everything our greenwing can do, vanilla marines can do too (and sometimes even better, with access to toys we do not get). So, these particular units are what makes us special as an army, beyond the color of our armor.

 

This actually ties with a comment made about the Shadowspear, that these new primaris look cool... but not Gothic Sci Fi as Dark Angels are meant to be. They feel just futuristic, and could fit well with other armies, but they lack a look and a feel to fit in well with the First Legion.

Now,  terminators, as we know, are tough to fit into a list, and have serious issues that make playing with them a fluff choice more than a competitive one. Veterans are rarely used as well, given that they can get wiped out so easily and transports this editions are complicated to use. Bikers, no issue. Our army practically begs being pretty much the Ravenwing plus some scouts, at this point. But, the Landspeeder Vengeance is... Well, does anyone USE the Vengeance at all? Our fly wings are good but expensive.

 

So, in the end, what do we have that makes us unique?

Well, our shrouds.

Our bikes and our infantry march to war, under the old icons of caliban, like the crusading knights and men at arms of ancient times did, under the shadow of the the reliquaries and banners of their old god.

Its fitting, characteristic, and unique.

 

So, we might as well use it.

[UtariOnzo]

Seems to be another edition of where it’s worth contemplating simply playing Green Space Marines.

 

That said, while the shroud boxes you into specific play styles (Ravenwing spam or Castle lists) when used right it is useful. Several games it’s helped me out just letting my hellblasters survive a couple more turns to rain some plasma death on my foes.

 

Looking further in the DA list, Darktalon is also fairly unique compared to vanilla fighters, usually seems to be run in pairs, and vanilla marines don’t have HQ level speeder characters like we do, which can be a big deal so long as you manage that playstyle well.

 

DA has options and the shroud supports them, but the meta does feel like it’s boxing us into Ravenwing or azrael castle lists so I can appreciate the grumbling

[ValourousHeart]

I feel that the Shroud has a stronger synergy with the Azreal Castle than it does with Ravenwing.

 

With the Azreal castle, you can keep the Shroud in range of your firebase and potentially out of LOS behind whatever structure your firebase is in.

This provides the Shroud some protection, as it won't be able to take advantage of Azreal's 4++

 

The 12" movement of the Shroud is just to slow to keep up with Ravenwing without using Advance.

This isn't as bad with the 14" movement from bikes, but the bikes don't block LOS to the Shroud which means it becomes a high priority target, and won't be able to stay out of LOS if it is trying to stay close to the bikes.

 

When you consider speeders and their 16" movement the issue gets worse.

With bikes, you only needed to roll a 2+ on the advance for the Shroud, but with speeders, you need to roll 4+ on the Shroud's advance to keep up.

Otherwise, you have to slow your speeders down to keep in range of the Shroud.

Again the Shroud won't be able to keep out of LOS if it is trying to keep close to the speeders.

 

The nice part about speeders is that they might potentially block LOS for a Shroud or provide a cover save, but to do that you need to take Speeder Squadrons, which only exacerbates the speed issue.

Speeder Squadrons of 3+ models increase their movement to 20" per turn.

That means those speeders get the benefit of advancing 4" and still getting to shoot, without having to spend a CP, the only cost is that they don't get to Jink.

 

Even if the Shroud rolls a 6 on its advance roll, it is still falling behind 2" a turn.

And let's also admit that the Shroud more than likely started 2"-4" behind the speeders, meaning you are only going to get 1 movement phase with those speeders before you have to drastically reduce their speed in order for the Shroud to keep up.

 

If you ever want to advance your speeder squadron, you are intentionally sacrificing your Shroud, because it has zero chance to even keep close to that pace.

I don't like units whose only roll in an army is to run forward and give my opponent first blood.

I feel that this is always better use for those points.

 

As for the Unique things available to DA, we have a lot more than just Shrouds.

Dark Talons, Black Knights, Talonmaster, Sableclaw, and our Speeder Squadrons can go to 5 models just to point out the other Ravenwing units that no one else gets.

 

Shrouds are a very unique item DA get, and we should use them if they work well with the rest of the army we are fielding.

However, we should not use them just because they are unique... and we should especially not use them if they make the army weaker by trying to take advantage of the aura the Shroud provides.

[Solrac]

The Shroud is one of the major defensive tools we have access to. -1 to hit is very strong but -1 to hit to every unit within 6" is even stronger.

 

As you said if you get first turn then happy days, your shroud will have a 4++ and will be infinitely harder to shift for the rest of the game. Because it is providing such a good defensive buff it doesn't matter that it contributes nothing on offense. It's your job to pick up the offense in other parts of the list.

 

If you go second yes it get's trickier. If there is no LOS blocking the Shroud is pretty much toast if your opponent has a lot of guns. Defensive positions helps with this (and compounds the resilience of your army turn 1) so spend those 2 CP because it does help. -1 to hit, T6, 9 W, 2+ save is no slouch and unless you have a super heavy shooting at it then your opponent will have to dedicate a lot of his fire to kill it T1 which means it's still doing its job as nothing else in your army may die.

 

If your army is really built around the -1 and its super important for you to keep it past turn 1 then your only option is to take a second shroud for redundancy.

 

Dark Shrouds aren't as useless as you make them out to be past their -1. I've used them mid to late game very effectively to advance onto objectives and use speed of the Raven to charge planes with a 4++ to eat the overwatch so Sammael and my Talonmaster can remove them.

[Angel of Solitude]

Thanks all for you responses - it has given me some very useful perspective on how to best make use of it.

 

On reflection, I think perhaps that my disdain for the Darkshroud the other night was actually more to do with the mistakes that I made with my target priority, but we all live and learn.

 

I've plenty more games to play, so plenty of opportunities to test and learn!

[sneakybamsen]

I think there is one factor that needs to be kept in mind when using dark shrouds - the rest of your army needs to be a bit more effective because you are bringing 138 points to the table (in a somewhat elite army) that doesn't carry it's own weight in damage output. It does make it harder to kill whatever DA stuff that is within 6", which is a big deal. But I too have sometimes thought of how little it feels like it is bringing to the table.

[G8Keeper]

I think there is one factor that needs to be kept in mind when using dark shrouds - the rest of your army needs to be a bit more effective because you are bringing 138 points to the table (in a somewhat elite army) that doesn't carry it's own weight in damage output. It does make it harder to kill whatever DA stuff that is within 6", which is a big deal. But I too have sometimes thought of how little it feels like it is bringing to the table.

 

I used to wince seeing the points on my rosters.  Now with Bolter Discipline I feel the cost is offset by the increase in power of my other units.  This is in a mainly RW army by the way.

[sneakybamsen]

But, the Landspeeder Vengeance is... Well, does anyone USE the Vengeance at all?

 

I haven't played my DA in a while for several reasons, the primary being that my wife gave birth to our second kid in December. But I did run the LSV previously for two reasons - It's painted and it sits well besides a Talonmaster and Sableclaw. When it's configured with an assault cannon though, you kind of end up often being on the move if you want to fire both weapons, and that makes it hit like crap and you don't really want to supercharge the plasma battery. I've only used it for casual games, and it is far off the target for my planned DA + assassins list I'll be running at a danish GT in June.

[Hellunder]

Probably not competitive, but I’ve been fielding a Lascannon dread and a Lascannon razorback, and they usually get all the attention T1 so my hellblasters are usually safe, with or without Darkshroud. Having a third Lascannon threat instead of Darkshroud could maybe keep them even more safe?

[Cpt_Reaper]

 

Now,  terminators, as we know, are tough to fit into a list, and have serious issues that make playing with them a fluff choice more than a competitive one. Veterans are rarely used as well, given that they can get wiped out so easily and transports this editions are complicated to use....But, the Landspeeder Vengeance is... Well, does anyone USE the Vengeance at all? 

Now I haven't had a huge amount of games in 8th with my Angels, but in the past my Veteran squad and LSV performed rather well. The increase of the Plasma Storm Battery's range was a huge help (the jump from 24 to 36 was sorely needed). I ended up proxying it as a Darkshroud mostly in 8th simply to test out a Darkshroud to see if i wanted to invest in one as I plan to convert one.

 

But my Veterans always performed well. 5 man, TH/SS, 2x power sword/combat shield and 2 BP/CS as bodyguards to my Master. They tank a lot of damage (the record is 21 wounds from a Leman Russ squadron...then getting wrecked by lasguns).

 

My philosophy with difficult units isn't that they are bad, you just need to find out where they work. If you work on it, find that sweet spot then you can take advantage of your opponent's inexperience against it.

[Angel of Solitude]

I had an interesting epiphany last night. Reflecting back on my game on Tuesday night, one of the disadvantages is that I had nothing in reserve, so everything was on the board available to be targeted, and I once I was committed in one direction, then there was not much more than I could do. The two reserve options are Inceptors or Deathwing, and as I started to think about it, what if I advanced my Darkshroud to a particular position and then BOOM! Teleport the unit in front and within the 6" bubble? -1 to hit makes the Termies more durable, and they can just sit there with their 20 base shots and 20 DWA shots. Keep them within the magic 12"-24" range, and they'll survive for some time.

 

Worth a try I guess. If the Darkshroud splits away from the main Sammael / Talonmaster strike force, then it might become less of a target.

[ValourousHeart]

I had an interesting epiphany last night. Reflecting back on my game on Tuesday night, one of the disadvantages is that I had nothing in reserve, so everything was on the board available to be targeted, and I once I was committed in one direction, then there was not much more than I could do. The two reserve options are Inceptors or Deathwing, and as I started to think about it, what if I advanced my Darkshroud to a particular position and then BOOM! Teleport the unit in front and within the 6" bubble? -1 to hit makes the Termies more durable, and they can just sit there with their 20 base shots and 20 DWA shots. Keep them within the magic 12"-24" range, and they'll survive for some time.

 

Worth a try I guess. If the Darkshroud splits away from the main Sammael / Talonmaster strike force, then it might become less of a target.

 

I really like the idea.

 

Reserves come in at the end of the movement phase, so you'll get to move your Shroud 24" + 2d6", which should get your TDA units in a good position.

The only downside to this is that you will be telegraphing your DW drop a turn ahead of time.

 

Now your opponent could still choose to target the Shroud even if none of your units are making use of the aura.

But it has been my experience that most players focus on where the damage is coming from, or where they expect the damage to be coming from.

[Eldorien]

Hello.

 

This morning, I had a battle against a Tyranid and after loosing vs him (as usually hehe) I thought that is time to put aside the DarkShroud. At least in my Greenwing list.

I usually play against Ad mech and Tyranids, and always the -1 to impact is not as hard to counter as with other armies. The Ad mech have a lot of stratagems that give them +2 to impact and the Tyranids have a lot of tools to boost the units, even to shoot twice.

I am going to try other things without it. I can field a Venerable Dreadnought with TLC and ML with those 136 points plus 4 more. Or even try other things.

My experience with the Darkshroud is that is a must in Ravenwing lists, but not in multiwings or greenwing lists. Nowadays, there are a lot of buffs or stratagems to counter that -1 in all the armies, and even without boosting them, other armies have a huge amount of fire that will hurt you even with that -1.

What I dont like is that we are going to be just "Green Space Marines" and no Dark Angels if our unique units dont work really well in Greenwing lists...

Regards.
 

[Berzul]

Well, that is one of the "problems" with Dark Angels. Our Greenwing doesn't get anything that special. Our uniqueness is in the RW and DW

[Berzul]

Personally, I usually don't bother with the shroud against Tyranids, but that is because Tyranid players in my gaming group tend to be overly reliant in Genestealers and Broodlords, and go really melee-focused for their lists. What little shooting they bring, it tends to be hindered with a "36 inch range" most times, so my missile launchers and lascannons can frequently outshoot them early on.

 

Still, just to take it as a consideration, if your -1 bubble is making your opponent spend CPs in getting bonuses to cancel it, then the shroud is having a huge impact. Specially considering ad mech and tyranids can get more CP than us, due to model costs and accessibility to double batallions over any space marine army. If you can force them to spend those CP in pushing through your Shroud's aura, then I think that is a good benefit to have on the board with the speeder.

[BlackTriton]

I had initially some success with the azrael, helblaster, dark shroud classic.

 

Im transitionning to no helblaster and intead multiple inceptor that deepstrike near azrael and delete turn 2 and 3.

Dark shroud is therefore no longer needed.

 

I am also toying with 10 Deathwing knight as a brawler unit to hold center board and force reaction.

 

The rest of the list is mostly intercessor and RW bikers, they benefit from azrael and thin the crowds turn one and on.