After some advice on sw in 8th

[cravgar]

Hey all,

 

I’ve been building up my see army for a ‘while to say the least’ and I’ll have to admit I’m a part timer when it comes to army building and gaming. Me and a friend tend to just face off against each other when we find a bit of time that works.

 

My current stock pile is:

10 x scouts

15 x blood claws

26 x Grey hunters

10 x skyclaws

6 x TWC

1 pack of fenrisian wolves

10 x WG terms

10 x Long Fangs

24 x models still on sprue

 

Njal in term

Ragnar

Wolf Priest with Jump pack

Iron Priest

Ulric

World lord on TW

 

Landraider (crusader i think)

Stormwolf

2 x Rhino/Razorback

1 x Dual lass Pred

 

Bjorn - bnib

1 x pack of wolfen - bnib

 

 

Now here comes the tricky part for me :-)

 

My friend is playing Astra militarum and basically beats me every time, I got one lucky game in out of many. He’s rolled a inf heavy and vehicle heavy list and both times mine is really subpar.

 

So this all got me questioning things:

- have I been building the right units?

- is there anything I should be getting?

- are as the right army for a ‘beginner’?

- how much terrain should I be aiming to get on the table? And how high etc

- would I be better picking something else? Ideally this should be a no as I love the sw lore :-)

 

Some advice and opinions would be great if anyone is willing to/ able to help

 

Cheers

 

Crav

[CaptainStabby]

I think you have a good footprint for a Wolf army there, the problem is you are always going to be giving up pure wound count to just about any flavor of IG army.

 

The Termies just got a big bump in thinning out squishy things like Guard and TWC are ace at it. With what you've got there, off hand I would say buy another at least 2 packs of fenrisian wolves. They are by far our most efficient screen unit and can all but guarantee that TWC you have will get stuck in and start mulching guard.

If he will let you, run that Thunder Wolf Lord as Harald and have him come in on a table edge with plasma scouts and go hunt light vehicles.

 

Just off the top of my head that's the general idea of what I would throw at him with that footprint.

 

Kill the shooty things, shoot the killy things. :)

[Karack Blackstone]

Hello Crav,

 

Tactics can be the single biggest difference in terms of paths to victory.

Sadly, Wulfen, or you're doing it wrong, to some.

Multiple Small Units, MSU, seems to be the way to go at times, if you just want to meet the minimums to get a detachment onto the field.

 

Given the options, and i'm pretty sure others can think of better lists...

 

Grey Hunters x 10, WGPL if wanted, 9 GH + WGPL if you need. Take as many as you feel like having. A Battalion Detachment with GH's and maybe Blood Claws to fill out its base Troops slots will net you a rather sturdy firebase. Just ensure that if you're going to do MSU, you need to do LOTS of MSU; don't go halfway. If you're going to go full 10-man packs, please fill the unit fully out. If you're footslogging, go 11; if you're using Rhinos or some other transport, 1 WGPL + 9 GH's, including GHPL, can be solid, if you kit them out right.

 

Here's a quick mashed together list based on what you have thus far:

 

Battalion

 

Ulric

 

TDA - If you can, the LRC or Stormwolf can best carry these guys. That Wulfen pack is pretty mobile on foot, they can hoof it pretty well. 10 TDA is going to bring the hurt.

 

15 Blood Claws

10 Grey Hunters - Special weapons to taste, lots of chainswords if you can model them, or just spend the points - zero is nice and cheap

10 Grey Hunters - On Special Ranged weapons, consider Plasma for objective holders, maybe Melta if you're going to assault; going without can also work

 

Wulfen - 10 on foot, or move the BC's to the Stormwolf, and the Wulfen ride in that LRC; either way, LRC or Stormwolf, there's 8 to the pack.

 

LRC

Long Fangs x 5/6, if you have the models, 5 HW's is great, with the sixth being the LFPL - That Razorback is a fine ride for the LF's if you can manage it.

Long Fangs x 5/6, again, if you can fit it in.

 

Rhino

Rhino

 

Stormwolf

 

Depending on the mission, if you have a solid firebase and figure out what you want to use to kill what, you need to present enough threatening targets to force your foe to shoot at what you want him to, not to fire as he wills.

 

If you press with that LRC filled with the BC's and Ulric, you're going to lay on the hurt if it gets into the foe. After they're likely footslogging, and since the Stormwolf starts on the table turn 1, you can also press with the Stormwolf carrying either Wulfen or the BC mess and Ulric, and the LRC packing the other along, there's always a press attack threat. If you have two Rhinos and can spare the points to throw in some GH's, you can run around on the field pretty quickly to get some ability to maneuver.

 

PA models are way too expensive and need something more to be better than they are right now. That typed, there's every reason to favor large packs if able, as there's no real reason to figure on having the foe get to dictate how you fight. Make the foe react to you.

 

Using the above list...

 

LRC with either Ulric and BC's or Wulfen presses one way; if you take TDA they should go in here, they're not fast enough on their own

Stormwolf with the other option above goes into a push towards a threatening area they can slaughter.

Two Rhinos with GH's to press as an additional option is going to be impressive as well.

 

If you can, the TDA are going to be pretty decent at fighting IG. There's stuff they don't do well, but give them plenty of stuff to shoot with, and they'll shred a pretty decent number of Guard.

 

Please don't take what I typed up as gospel; I'm not as well gamed this edition as I once was, but do realize that the more threats you can present, the better.

[cravgar]

Thanks guys that’s all great stuff to start taking in, I think that’s something I’ve not done for sure regarding getting sHooty. Th/ss tda probably aren’t the best thing :-)

 

We do proxy units he does more than me. The biggest challenge I face at times is he is a stickler for the tinyest part of the model being visible then pow I get shredded.

 

I often try to run razorbacks with smaller packs instead of rhinos so that I have some firepower against his armour the hardest thing is know how to balance good tank busting ability vs great inf killing and i think that’s where I get lost as I’m trying to , counter so perhaps he takes an advantage on that straight away

[PeteySödes]

Against AM (or really anything) you should always cunning of the wolf to mess with their deployment. Forces them to keep track of what’s NOT on the table too. If they screw up you can hug their tank line and if they don’t, worst case you get a full str infantry squad mid game for obj.

[Karack Blackstone]

Crav, thanks for continuing to monitor this thread.

 

As far as that situation goes, Dreadnoughts and some Predators can really help. I think you have a Pred, but be sure you can squeeze it in, and another target won't hurt you.

 

Adding maybe, if able, Bjorn with TLLC or HPC, and a Las-Pred won't hurt you, either.

 

You need to fight both his tank lines and his infantry wall. You're the one with the uphill battle, so, yes, MSU in Razorbacks will help, but if you can get more bodies and then move some points over to better and more Anti-Tank targets, you losing both the mobility of a GH pack AND the Heavy Weapons that Razorback ride was carrying, you're doing better.

 

If you squeeze your force so tightly that your anti-armor doubles as a Troop transport, you're going to suffer in both areas if you get your 'Backs sniped out from under its passengers who are now footslogging, and to add insult to injury, you just lost a pretty hefty chunk of your anti-armor weaponry from your list.

 

Please read into this and then out of this what-all you can and hopefully will use.

 

Target saturation for PA armies is a must against Guard. If he's going to try to push against your lines, which he most likely won't, he's going to let you come to him.

 

Charge on your terms, not his.

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Crayg - If I may ask, when you say he goes very tank heavy, how many tanks are we talking about? Been a long time since I faced a fully mechanized guard, so I'm not sure just how many Leman Russ and other vehicles he can take in a list.

 

Anyway, my general advice is :

 

1) to not get shot first. Meaning hide everything behind cover or LOS blocking terrain. Minimise the number of units his Tanks can focus fire on you. If he has a lot of Wyverns, that's where your Rhinos and Razorbacks come in. Per ITC rules, units in the bottom level of ruins cannot be fired at even if there is a window or door there.

 

If you have 3 Long Fang Squads, you can hide them in lower level of ruins behind LOS or in Rhino on Turn 1. If you go first, deploy out of Rhino, use Keen Senses to remove hit penalties from moving and focus fire on one tank to either kill it or get it to next damage tier level. But be careful not to overexpose the Long fangs to everything.

 

If you go second, ensure the Fangs are out of LOS or inside transports.

 

A very risky method is to load up multi meltas and Cunning of the wolf them. Not very efficient but can potentially wreck havoc. 

 

2) As everyone mentioned, use Cunning of the Wolf to make him spread his units over his board edge instead of concentrating or camping in one corner of the table and shooting you at his leisure. Actually with the new Bolter rules, terminators can do a lot of damage to his infantry from far range. You don't HAVE to deepstrike close to him, as long as you are killing something every turn and capturing objectives, good enough.

 

3) Regarding the terrain question, just try to ensure that there is sufficient TALL buildings such as Bastions. it would be unfair to you to play an otherwise clear flat terrain table with no way to hide your units, especially if you are not playing ITC rules. When there is, hug the terrain like no tomorrow for your units.

 

4) If you are going mechanized yourself and use your 2 Rhinos, Razorback, and Land Raider, remember to pop smoke for -1 to hit and at the same time, have a Rune Priest try to Cast Storm Caller and if necessary, Cloak by Storm strategem for additional -1 to hit. Do this if you fill up the Rhino and Land Raider with something nasty like big blob of blood claws or Wulfen.

 

These are general ideas to be used as situation demands, item 1 won't work for examply if you don't use that many Long Fangs. Actually this will be my only advice on your models: you need another squad of Long Fangs I feel, but then again, I've not been very successful lately with my triple Long fang list so take my advice with pinch of salt.

 

Item 3 on the other hand is absolutely essential to give yourself a fighting change against a gunline.

 

Hope this helps.

[cravgar]

Thanks for the further help guys. 

 

There is a lot for me to start considering but I think i definitely need to try and focus on having a well rounded list and just playing it over and over to learn it and the rules better. 

 

ITC - Thats a tournament right? if so then no we just play standard rules, so how should i defend to the bassilisks and wyerns in this scenario? I find the squads get wrecked with the amount of fire, he was able to use 'something' i can't remember what exactly but it fired so many shots, and although they weren't the most powerful, its a numbers game and get enough dice to roll and i'm going to start to lose out. 

 

@Karack, just checking i'm on the same page, you think less MSU with razorbacks and a full squad in rhino, and a pred is better as an example?

 

 

As for the Armor, IIRC i think there was like 3 or more LemanRuss, the bassilisks/ Wyverns (2 of) and then a few chimeras to. It just spelled disaster. He has also '1 shotted' my LRC before but just the shear amount of firepower he was able to bare down on it. again I think might be a terrain issue. They're old photos but typical of what we would see. 

 

https://imgur.com/cU8Nx0x

https://imgur.com/0gMdG2v

 

 

Here is the new terrain style we have, yet to be built

https://imgur.com/4oFs9Wo

https://spikeybits.com/2015/03/laser-cut-terrain-sets-for-your-tabletop.html

 

Its not strictly 40k stuff but i't will provide more flexibility to having different types of games and terrain and a much lesser cost

 

 

So with the 26 odd models I have left to build I'll get myself some more LF, do you think a 3rd 10man GH pack or a 15 strong BC pack will be the best to compliment? is there any worth in going for WG in PA?

 

This is a little off topic, but is anyone magnetizing their wolves? i'm not bothered about buy lots, but painting them can become cumbersome. I tried magnetizing and failed but i think that was down to potentially not magnetizing the right 'parts' of the model etc and not really having a clear view on which bits i should do.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

On magnets I do vehicles and dreads and the like but not infantry, though I am considering taking apart my TDA and doing them too. Anything smaller than terminators seems excessive to me

[Kallas]

It can worthwhile magnetising characters, as they are generally able to have a massive range of options - and as GW is actually giving us balance updates with Chapter Approved and the Big FAQs, it's a good idea to have the flexibility to switch your gear if you feel the need.

 

 

 

For Space Wolf tactics, I think the others have given a lot of good advice. Personally, I feel like one needs a decent amount of Troops (or bodies in general) to be able to hold objectives reasonably well - the list that Karack posted is pretty solid for that, as there are 35 Troops models, plus additional elite units; moreover, with the LRC and Stormwolf there's transport for them too, which is incredibly important. Marines without Storm Shields out of transports will evaporate faster than you can say, "Power Armour!"

 

Karack's suggested list, I feel, is actually very solid. Wulfen certainly can footslog, but without sufficient screening or numbers they'll get focused down. I'd definitely recommend dropping them to 8-man and put them in a transport as that means that the opponent won't have any good targets for their anti-infantry firepower early on.

[PeteySödes]

I magnetize almost everything.

 

Grey Hunters/Bloodclaws: Pack leader (both hands), 2 special weapons (both hands)

WG: Both hands

 

You get the idea, if it has options I'll mag it. It's almost always worth the time, and the more you do it the less time it takes.

 

I recommend these for infantry:

https://www.amazingmagnets.com/p-162-r063-063.aspx

 

 

Plenty strong and easy to hide. Maybe go bigger for vehicles but it you order through that site you can get a sample pack with the order which has larger ones you can use for vehicles. Win Win.

[Karack Blackstone]

Crag, the idea here is, MSU folds fast as there's not enough Wounds in normal 1 W, 4 T 3+ PA models to weather the amount of anti-PA fire any army let alone IG can muster.

 

I'd favor at least considering the list I thought up, but clearly, you will need to make it your own.

 

Rhino w/ GHs

Rhino w/ GHs

LRC with BCs

Stormwolf with TDA

Wulfen x 10, footslogging, will need SS's

 

That's a pretty decent press, let alone the way back section that can provide fire support, namely the LF's, let alone adding some Dreadnoughts, or at least Bjorn with a TLLC to snipe away. His huge BS, ability to tank, and his solid Invulnerable save without being stuck with the currently lackluster Blizzard Shield this edition can greatly aid you. You have a 1 die facing worse than normal BS, but with both arms to boot.

 

Bodies in PA model armies is key. You need speed, you need threats, and above all, you need to learn how you best learn how to send what you need to versus what opposing unit and why, and how to best get them there. Screening and pressing are somewhat related, but at the same time, you're going to lose at least one ride, so that is the biggest question of all: what will you do when, not if, one or more of your transports goes down?

 

To reiterate, the prior point I attempted to make about the Razorbacks being both a lost ride and a lost gun platform is key here. You can send a Pred forward pretty well, along with some Dreadnoughts, and keep your LF's and the Razorback(s) that might relocate them in the back. A solid press is key; but you will need to balance this against the needs of keeping your own rear field assets from being gutted thanks to Deep Strikers or rapid flanking attacks.

 

So, it's not easy, or else we all could do it.

What's your normal points value to play at? Without reference, focus on 2,000 points to start.

 

Plasma Guns on GH's are seriously solid for this edition; two in a ten-man pack is going to really lay on the hurt. But, if you don't need them, don't take them.

I'm going to reread your model list in the OP, and post a list to see what you think and how many points you would have access to.

 

Not that you need to, but if points allow, Primaris Intercessors are a very strong objective sitter in the rear field on your side, and can also back up the LF's or other rear field assets should they require some support. However, I know the NuMarines are a very touchy subject, so I won't add them in just yet. Also, 5 PI's have the same Wounds total as 10 GH's.

[cravgar]

Ah ok  thanks again! Yeah that all makes sense, Before out last break.... which is so long ago i cant remember we were up to around 75PL to 100 if i remember right so in the 1500pt range. we're slow at this currently and so don't want to have too much on the table as our games a lasting like a day 'noobs'!  There's a few local gaming centers that have 40k nights so may go check that out, GW over here tends to have a lot of 'kids' and being a more old fart i'd like some similar aged company lol.

 

That list it looking good and thanks i will start on that for sure. 

 

As the magnetizing, i'll probably get into that for the larger models first... every model my painting gets better so i don't mind doing them currently but the PA units are getting somewhat repetitive. here's a few of my WP conversion and WG in TA. you'll notice my face skills arent that great yet. i may come away from the wash and dry brush tecnique ive been using but it keeps them looking 'rugged', which i personally like

 

[Karack Blackstone]

2,000 Points, so this will need to drop some stuff. If you debate with your friend about going to 2K just know he will have more stuff as well.

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [141 PL, 2000pts] ++

 

 

+ HQ +

 

Ulrik The Slayer [6 PL, 110pts]: Warlord

Wolf Guard Battle Leader [4 PL, 60pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

 

 

+ Troops +

 

Blood Claws [10 PL, 182pts]
. 13x Blood Claw
. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Chainsword

Grey Hunters [10 PL, 133pts]: 8x Chainsword
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword
. 8x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

Grey Hunters [10 PL, 133pts]: 8x Chainsword
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword
. 8x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

 

 

+ Elites +

 

Dreadnought [7 PL, 108pts]: Heavy plasma cannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour [26 PL, 232pts]
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Power maul, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Power maul, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Power maul, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Power maul, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Power maul, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Power maul, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Power maul, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Power maul, Storm bolter

Wulfen [11 PL, 155pts]: 4x Wulfen claws
. 4x Wulfen
. Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

 

 

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Land Raider Crusader [17 PL, 264pts]: 2x Hurricane bolter, Twin assault cannon

Long Fangs [8 PL, 110pts]
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword

Long Fangs [8 PL, 110pts]
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword

 

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormwolf [16 PL, 259pts]: Skyhammer missile launcher, Twin helfrost cannon
. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter

 

This above list is higher than 1,500 pts., but it is slightly below 2,000, just not by much. Still, the problem is squeezing in the TDA and the Wulfen. The TDA with PMauls and SB's are at x 2 S versus Guard T in melee, and with the new Bolter rules, those 8 Stormbolters are going to really lay on the hurt at range. I gave you both the Stormwolf and the LRC, as well as two Rhinos. This is seriously tight points wise, but still, it's at least an idea of where you would need to be.

 

Edit:

 

 

 

So with the 26 odd models I have left to build I'll get myself some more LF, do you think a 3rd 10man GH pack or a 15 strong BC pack will be the best to compliment? is there any worth in going for WG in PA?

 

I think the current problem is that all forms of C/SM's are rather weak when compared to other armies on a ppm basis. While all C/SM models are overcosted, the problem is that right now you're over the target 1,500 points. If you want to build and field more, you're going to both need to up the model counts.

 

As far as the terrain goes, you were getting a disadvantage in the first sets. Favor that laser terrain; you really are in need of some kind of terrain cover and defensive protection. The single best thing Guard do is shoot: that first set of tables isn't even Steven.

 

As it is, do you have any way to access an army construction program? Army Builder and Battlescribe are the two most common. Picking one will help you, and to the prior two examples, Battlescribe is cheaper and typically interacts better with the user.

 

Edit 2:

 

List wasn't legal; should be fixed.

[cravgar]

Yeah I have battlescribe thanks! Fielding everything I have isn’t the be all and end all it’s building something well rounded from what I have or know what to go out and get next!

 

All this info is really useful and I’m looking forward to trying them out! How you guys modelling your power mauls? I’m assuming the sprue hasn’t been updated for these yet?

[cravgar]

I forgot to ask, are the hb fangs good, I’d always assumed a lc, ml, or hpls would be better?

 

And would a whirlwind be of benefit against am? If I had it hidden away?

[Karack Blackstone]

Full points; 2,000/2,000

 

The Whirlwind in place of the DLC Pred is going to favor more anti-infantry. I think you need a bit more anti-armor, but the problem is, with the list per the above, your LF's are going to very likely shred decent numbers of Guard squads per volley. There's the problem however as listed above. If you want to copy the above list, you're going to need to seriously make the list your own before you continue.

 

I'm not going to lie, those Wulfen need to be screened, and have a bodyguard unit while they close in. The problem is, there's just so few points for wiggle room that it takes a great deal of press on any one given side. Either one loses either the Wulfen or some of the TDA, in order to gain the more anti-armor heavy weapons on the LF's.

 

Tradeoffs, at this point...

[CaptainStabby]

fwiw, magnetizing stuff is totally a personal choice. Me? I have more bitz than I have patience for magnetizing power armor dudemens. I just build new guys. I do however magnetize vehicles where possible. Also I like building infantry, I hat building GW vehicles.  :D

 

Like Karack said, screen the Wulfen, get more doggos. They are our absolute best option to screen your important units & characters unless you are going to ally in a guard blob.

[Bulwyf]

One thing I would suggest that really seems to be forgotten by too many: use terrain. Make sure your board has plenty of LOS blocking pieces in it. When people play at my house for the first few times they are always impressed at how much having LOS terrain affects the game. If you don't have enough then people can simply set up in a castle deployment and literally shoot someone off the table. Usually that someone as a Space Wolf player is you since you are more than likely trying to assault them.

[TiguriusX]

Earlier you asked how to defend against basilisks and wyverns.

 

Short answer is you cant. They are long range indirect fire guns. You cant hide from them. The best defense is killing them ASAP. The next option is a penalty to shooting (tempest wrath).

 

Last option is ignore them and hope armor and SS work. But things will die

 

I have a thread called saga of the rune knights where i faced 2 different astra militarum lists including artillery. The batreps may be helpful to review.

 

Also you cant ask if something is good without context. 40K is like a fancy rock paper scissors game. Everything has a pro and a con...a job they can do if certain conditions are present.

 

For example lascannon long fangs are awesome killing vehicles and monsters and demons. they suck against 180+ ork horde.

[cravgar]

thanks guys,

 

the new terrain i've got to make it actually really good! i just hope we have enough of it... otherwise ill buy some more :) i don't want to sway it too far the other way but i can definitely see that i need to balance things for me some more! 

 

Killing them is going to be a challange, he will hide them behind a building and surround them with models meaning no getting in on an edge or using my flyer to get a good los. but... maybe i just need to wipe one of his squads asap to make room for it to get in where its needed!

 

cheers all. 

[cravgar]

Just a thought would an imperial knight add some fun or maybe some dw?

[TiguriusX]

Just a thought would an imperial knight add some fun or maybe some dw?

Most people who run knights have a good experience with it. I love mine. I don't know what your definition of "fun" is but just know the knight is going to be target #1 for your opponent. There will be games it dies turn 1 without ever doing anything (read my Rune Knights batrep where the opponent had a shadowsword...). If you can accept that risk then yes it is totally fun.

Crusader is a nice durable shooty element that the general SW army lacks so it makes a good ally.

[MegaVolt87]

Are wolf guard bikers no longer a thing? I hated those guys in 6-7th ed. Oh and the storm shield TWC, which I see have eagerly been awaiting my return.   

[TiguriusX]

Are wolf guard bikers no longer a thing? I hated those guys in 6-7th ed. Oh and the storm shield TWC, which I see have eagerly been awaiting my return.

WG Bikers were left out of the codex

 

They are still "legal" as an index unit but most people are expecting GW to kill the index off in the near future

 

We are all sad bc yes...SW bikers are nice units