Future Directions (theory-crafting future release 40K)

[Ishagu]

 

I think the Lion is a likely prospect.

 

I also think he'll agree with Guilliman on almost everything and won't be any kind of foil for him, beyond wanting to be Lord Commander himself.

The impression I get from the HH novels is that they largely settled their rivalries by the end of Imperium Secundus. As to wanting to be Lord Commander, I can actually see Guilliman being quite happy with that arrangement. Currently he feels stretched too thin, he needs to be everywhere at once and doing everything at once. If the Lion returned and was made Warmaster Lord Commander, that would free Guilliman up to actually start rebuilding the Imperium rather than running around putting out bush fires.

Exactly. He'll be happy to have him back in the picture. Heck, they might even become friends.

[Quantum]

I haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, but it sound like the Primarchs were one big disfunctional family.

 

Rather tiresome, if you ask me. I get enough of that from the drama shows my wife loves to watch. I prefer to see how brothers, in then end, after everything, still got each other's back.

[Karhedron]

I haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, but it sound like the Primarchs were one big disfunctional family.

Pretty much sums it up. Malcador the Sigilite (the Emperor's regent in the GC and HH) says as much to Rogal Dorn.

 

‘You brothers – such a nest of rivalries. I warned him to make you sisters, that it would make things more civilised. He thought I was joking. I wasn’t.’

There is a massively complicated array of friendships and rivalries between the Primarchs. As the Primarch of the oldest (and at one point, the largest) Legion, the Lion felt slighted when Horus was appointed Warmaster.

[Marshal Rohr]

I haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, but it sound like the Primarchs were one big disfunctional family.

 

Rather tiresome, if you ask me. I get enough of that from the drama shows my wife loves to watch. I prefer to see how brothers, in then end, after everything, still got each other's back.

 

The Primarchs are not brothers. That was what caused the heresy. The Heresy was a good story of the dangers of pretending to be a family, and how that can go wrong. It would show real development if the returned Primarchs recognize they were just science experiments, and not brothers. Generals, and not family. 

[Ishagu]

I mean they ARE all related. They also have a lot of similarities, some of which are the fact that they are the only ones that comprehend and function on each other's level. Same with the Emperor too.

 

Guilliman and the Lion weren't raised together or even in the same way, but they doesn't mean they aren't brothers in a sense.

 

Brothers fight. Kane and Able; tale as old as time, Song as old as rhyme.

They've also got each other's backs. I have no doubt that many of them would have given their lives to protect another.

Lion, should he return, might give RG a hard time but he'll have his back, and there will be mutual trust, respect and understanding. The two of them have more in common than they do with anyone else in the universe.

 

Guilliman, in Plague War, describes the feelings towards his brothers. "Many of whom I loved, all of whom I respected"

There's some great stuff.

[HandsWithLegs]

 

If any of the primarchs return I'm guessing that it's going to be the Lion. We've had far more movement with the Dark Angles storyline with the fallen on vigilus than we have with the space wolves story, and the white scars don't even have their own codex or enough unique flavor for the khan to return.

Sort of like the Thousand Sons and Death Guard were like before their recent codexes and upgrade?

 

The thing about Death Guard and Thousand Sons is they look and operate vastly different than the generic traitor legions. Both have had massive changes to their physical forms that take them away from baseline CSM in ways that codex doesn't cover. I'm not sure the white scars can find their own niche within the loyalist forces, as the Dark Angels already have the bike heavy army covered

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, but it sound like the Primarchs were one big disfunctional family.

 

Rather tiresome, if you ask me. I get enough of that from the drama shows my wife loves to watch. I prefer to see how brothers, in then end, after everything, still got each other's back.

 

The Primarchs are not brothers. That was what caused the heresy. The Heresy was a good story of the dangers of pretending to be a family, and how that can go wrong. It would show real development if the returned Primarchs recognize they were just science experiments, and not brothers. Generals, and not family. 

 

I'm not sure that adds up. Brothers and Sons have often fought with Brothers and Parents when in positions of power. Henry III had to fight 3 of his sons when they tried to depose him in the 1170s. John tried to rebel and replace his brother Richard I. Richard III delegitimised his nephews to take the throne (not going into the 'did he murder them too' mystery). Edward III had to depose this mother and her lover to become King. And those are just a few examples of immediate family conflicts over the English Crown, it gets even worse when you bring in cousins (Wars of the Roses and the like). Mongol Empire, Ottoman Empire, Byzantine Empire, it's not hard to find violent strife between 'real' brothers. Likewise, it's not hard to find examples of Generals and commanders unrelated to the rulers making power plays too. Simon de Montfort, An Lushan, Vespasian, Septimus Severus, Cromwell, the Diadochi etc

 

I just don't see how the Heresy has anything to do with the dangers of 'pretending to be a family' (of course, imo that whole 'Primarchs were just tools' retcon is a steaming pile of , but I digress) . Brothers or 'merely' Warlords, I don't see how that changes the Heresy. Hell, given that some of the loyalist Primarchs definitely bought into the whole 'Emperor is Dad' idea, no attempts at paternity and fraternity may have resulted in a Heresy where more than 9 turn, which would have been even worse for old Empy.

[Ishagu]

I personally HATE that retcon also, and I still don't believe it.

 

I'll accept that the Emperor has lost all feelings and compassion in the 10,000 years since his "ascension" and that Guilliman is now nothing more than a means to an end for him, but the story of how the love for his favoured son was a weakness and a blindness of the Emperor is a brilliant one.

 

It's such a boring change and such a downgrade to his character. The Emperor WAS a human. He was as far away from humanity as you can get but he was still a member of it. The retcon make him into some unfeeling robot with an objective and it's worse in every way. The Emperor was never perfect. His Empire was equal parts hope and progress and tyranny and repression, but that was a reflection of the duality of humanity. The plot that he FINALLY found someone approaching an equal in his son Horus, that finally he wasn't alone. That was such good stuff and made the outcome even more tragic.

 

I hope this unfeeling rubbish and lies to his sons is once again reversed because it's crap and makes the story less compelling. I don't care about characters without emotions. If he's a sociopath or a psychopath it damages him. In some ways the HH really drained the romance and mysticism from the setting.

 

Let's not hope that the surviving loyalist Primarchs are ultimately dysfunctional. The idea of a strong family, bonds of blood and ideals are good for the setting and the story. It would be more fresh if the Lion returns, puts to bed any rumors of treason or Heresy, and helps to lead the Imperium in the common goal of strengthening mankind against the tides of darkness. No one wants civil War, split loyalties or anything resembling HH 2.0

 

We've already had half the brothers rebel.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

They've also got each other's backs.

No they don't. This is a hilarious claim, on both the tactical and personal level. On Istvan V, two of Ferrus' brothers did not have his back. Guilliman was openly and sneeringly critical of Alpharius and his preferred strategies. Guilliman held to shoot at Imperial Fists to convince Dorn to accept the Codex Astartes. When the Dark Angels showed up to Macragge, the Lion hot-dropped his Legion without warning rather than assume Guilliman was loyal. The Khan was so divorced from the brotherhood of Primarchs that no one, not even Horus, knew exactly where his loyalties lay when the Heresy kicked off.

 

The only loyal Primarchs who can show up and slot neatly into the paradigm of M42 without a ruckus are Dorn and Vulkan. Khan and Russ are too wild, Corax has gone full daemonic, Ferrus and Sangy are dead, and the last we knew, the Lion and Guilliman do not like each other very much.

[Doctor Perils]

Let's not hope that the surviving loyalist Primarchs are ultimately dysfunctional. The idea of a strong family, bonds of blood and ideals are good for the setting and the story. It would be more fresh if the Lion returns, puts to bed any rumors of treason or Heresy, and helps to lead the Imperium in the common goal of strengthening mankind against the tides of darkness. No one wants civil War, split loyalties or anything resembling HH 2.0

 

We've already had half the brothers rebel.

It's conflict (in particular internal conflict) that makes for a compelling story - if all the main characters all have essentially the same opinion and have no reason to doubt themselves and each other then it would ultimately be a rather bland story (imo)

 

On the other hand, I agree that the Lion and Guilliman should be allies and friends, but only because they already resolved their conflict during the Heresy. Same goes for Lion and Russ (despite their successors still hating each other); and for Guilliman and Dorn (who in the end accepted the splitting of the Legions). The other Primarchs and characters of the Imperium (and potentially of the Ynnari) however could very well have their conflicts with Guilliman and co. In particular, I'd love to see a reckoning between Cawl's alleged tech-heresies and the orthodoxy of Mars

 

So yes, I want a new Civil War, just not on the level of the Heresy and not for the same reasons

[Ishagu]

Hey I'm not saying there's no personal conflict or disagreements at any time, and I'm not saying they all like each other 100%.

 

Guilliman disliked Alpharius (And Alpharius ultimately rebelled), but there is no animosity between him and the Lion. It will be like a bad fan fic if another, more "Edgy" Primarch comes back acting like a teenager to tell old, sensible Roboute that he ain't cool enough to lead the Imperium.

 

"Guilliman. I am cooler and more Edgy than you, with a darker side and various character flaws that apparently make an immortal demi-God more relatable. I will split the Imperium in two and lead some allegedly more bad ass military elements and do my own thing because I don't take orders from no one!"

 

Please.

Lol the irony is that some people want this cliché

 

Dorn was pretty stubborn and self destructive after the Heresy, unfortunately. It's why I want GW to bring him back as the "end" of his story was unflattering and anti-climatic.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Hyperbole is unbecoming. The Lion is more likely to show up and be like, "I'm better at this than you. I'm in command now." Because he has no tact and never has. If you don't see how that's in-character for him, and how unlikely Guilliman is to just hand over the reins, you need to reread some lore.

[Beams]

Hey I'm not saying there's no personal conflict or disagreements at any time, and I'm not saying they all like each other 100%.

 

Guilliman disliked Alpharius (And Alpharius ultimately rebelled), but there is no animosity between him and the Lion. It will be like a bad fan fic if another, more "Edgy" Primarch comes back acting like a teenager to tell old, sensible Roboute that he ain't cool enough to lead the Imperium.

 

"Guilliman. I am cooler and more Edgy than you, with a darker side and various character flaws that apparently make an immortal demi-God more relatable. I will split the Imperium in two and lead some allegedly more bad ass military elements and do my own thing because I don't take orders from no one!"

 

Please.

Lol the irony is that some people want this cliché

 

Dorn was pretty stubborn and self destructive after the Heresy, unfortunately. It's why I want GW to bring him back as the "end" of his story was unflattering and anti-climatic.

Did Alpharius rebel, or was that Omegon? The alpha legion always seemed schizophrenic, which I always took as a split down the middle... One half Alpharius one half Omegon.

 

Next primarch release: Alpharius Or Omegon, can be used by either side! But no one knows which one is which.

[Ishagu]

That would be cool. I'm fairness, if you were so shrouded in mystery that your brothers don't even know if you've rebelled or not... Kinda looks bad on Alpharius. Or Omegon lol

 

One of them should have met with his brothers at least.

Hyperbole is unbecoming. The Lion is more likely to show up and be like, "I'm better at this than you. I'm in command now." Because he has no tact and never has. If you don't see how that's in-character for him, and how unlikely Guilliman is to just hand over the reins, you need to reread some lore.

This would not happen. If you've read the novels you'll know that they both respect each other and even envy each other's accomplishments. The lion feels insecure when he compares himself to the Lord of the 13th and visa versa.

Their relationship arc ends with mutual understanding.

[Marshal Rohr]

Edit: Off topic about things that aren't about the future of 40k.

[Guest]

Going to remind everyone this back to "future releases" topic.

 

Edit: dang it rohr, why did you ninja edit when I am writing up my nudge. /s

[Robbienw]

The lion didn’t hot drop his legion into macragge. He had a drop setup just in case Gulliman had gone separatist. It was curze who actually set the drop off.

 

You can’t blame the lion for having it available as an option, he wasn’t sure of any of his fellow primarchs, given what had been going on in the wider galaxy at that point.

[Guest]

Here is what I would like to happen.

 

We have had lots of discussion of what is happening on the Terra side of the gate. Do we have any info on the Baal side? I am still reading Vigilus defiant/ablaze so I could be wrong and please do.

 

I want the Baal side to already have a Primarch coming back and leading them. When Guilliman secures the gauntlets and crosses over to the other side, to simply discover another Primarch. Lion, Russ, Vulkan, any of them. The Baal side is in so much worst condition than Terra that it really needs a Primarch to help them out. I doubt the BL or xenos simply left them alone.

 

We then can get some "previously in Nihilus...." book.

[Servant of Dante]

I on the other hand would not like to see a primarch in the Imperium Nihlus. Aside from the primaris reinforcements to the Chapters in the dark Imperium (and marines aren’t that numerous) and the fact that (so I’ve heard) the Astronomican is still faintly visible through the great rift, the Imperium Nihlus is basically a showcase of what would happen if the Imperium “fell.” What i mean is that the established central control is gone, but all the pieces and bureaucratic machinery are still around, there are still battlefleets and Administratum offices and cardinals and so on but there’s no Terra. I’d rather GW explore that aspect of everything falling apart and the attempts of the people stuck on the dark side to reconnect with eachother now that warp travel is harder (and how they fail, maybe :P ).

[Lexington]

The Baal side is in so much worst condition than Terra that it really needs a Primarch to help them out.

Why, tho? The problems of the non-Terran side of the Rift are the distance between worlds, the lack of communication/coordination and the potential threat of marauding Chaotic raiders. A Primarch can maybe kind of help with that last one, but for the most part, Primarchs are just big dudes. They’re not all that singularly powerful or useful in the context of 40K.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The Baal side is in so much worst condition than Terra that it really needs a Primarch to help them out.

Why, tho? The problems of the non-Terran side of the Rift are the distance between worlds, the lack of communication/coordination and the potential threat of marauding Chaotic raiders. A Primarch can maybe kind of help with that last one, but for the most part, Primarchs are just big dudes. They’re not all that singularly powerful or useful in the context of 40K.

Mostly because Guilliman can’t be the only loyalist Primarch. They can’t write him out of the story so they need to repair that damage in some way. To avoid a Horus Heresy 2.0 in the lore they’ve gotta embrace the multiple Primarchs against each other but loyal to terra story.

[Ishagu]

What damage? Story is great.

Maybe not to your taste but you only like the brooding, edgy Primarchs :-P

[Panzer]

More Primarchs will surely come but justifying it with "Nihilus needs a Primarch" is just not working out unless said Primarch deus ex machina builds a new astronomican to sit on like big E himself.

[Ishagu]

Could have a story about some new maguffin or maybe using the powers of the Warp to navigate the Dark Imperium, as the Lion did to navigate the ruinstorm.

[Marshal Rohr]

It is already possible to travel in the IN, just difficult. If legions could get through the Ruinstorm, modern 40k can make it without the Astronomicon. They've already detailed large combatant forces were able to move through the Ruinstorm in great enough numbers to fight large campaigns, so I don't see it as an issue in the Imperium Nihilus.