Returning Legionnaire seeking unholy council

[Furnace Lord]

I've been away from the hobby for many years but recently saw some pictures of the new Chaos models and felt the call of the Warmaster once more. I'm restarting a Black Legion army from scratch with no models. As I'm getting up to speed on the new edition I had some questions.

First I'm curious what are some 'safe' purchases to start out. I'm not up to date on rumors but with the Shadowspear set I assume Chaos Marines are getting a new kit some time in the future. Is there a new Codex around the corner or is this set just an update to the rules? After the rulebook I was going to get the Shadowspear set and hopefully trade the loyalist scum to someone for their unwanted Chaos bits. Honestly the whole Daemonkin theme is one I always based my army around because I love demon engines, Obliterators, and the like. I was also interested in the contents of the Cultist box. It shows 3 autogun and two close combat cultists, do they only come with those options or can you give them all autoguns or special weapons?

Second, I had a fluff question. In the old background the Black Legion learned to change allegiances between Chaos gods and not suffer ill effects on their possessed and such. Can a standard legionnaire bear and discard the mark of several gods over his lifetime in this fashion? Are cult troops like Plague Marines simply too far gone in their dedication to change allegiance?

Third, I'm behind on the novels released in the last several years. I've read the first four of the Horus Heresy, and I'm going to read the Talon of Horus next. Are there any other big Black Legion books I should grab?

Any council is appreciated, it's been a long time and I'm still catching up on things.

[Marshal Loss]

Welcome back to the Long War, brother!

 

Unfortunately there isn't a lot of help on the model front at this moment in time. We know that a massive wave of releases is coming for CSM, but we don't know precisely what is in it. Vanilla CSM and Havocs are guaranteed, along with a host of other models (Sorcerer, Dark Apostle, Terminators) that seem almost certain given rumour engines/art. I would advise against purchasing any kits for the next few weeks other than Shadowspear until we better understand what is coming next. A codex might be coming also, but again, we can't state that with full certainty. Either way you shouldn't have long to wait and Shadowspear is a fantastic box that will keep you occupied for now.

 

A standard Legionnaire can worship many different gods during his lifetime; a Plague Marine is a different beast who has sworn himself body and soul to Nurgle, and as such is the God of Decay's pawn. There is no going back for a Plague Marine or another cult troop as they have already sworn their souls to another deity; you can't pledge yourself to a new deity if the old one still owns the only thing that makes you valuable to the dark gods.

 

Read the Talon of Horus and then Black Legion by ADB. They will rock your world, inspire you, and give plenty of information on the nature of Chaos and the Black Legion itself which will be invaluable. Also consider picking up ADB's Night Lords trilogy, and Chris Wraight's excellent Lords of Silence for Death Guard action.

[Excessus]

Welcome back, brother. 

 

I was enthusiastic about writing a long answer but I can see that the good Marshal has already taken care of that. His advice is sound!

 

The cultists can either be equipped with autoguns or autopistols & close combat weapon. You can equip any amount in any way. 

[Gederas]

The only kits I'd say is a 'safe' purchase are the Raptors/Warp Talons kit, and the Maulerfiend/Forgefiend. And the Rhino/Predator/Vindicator and Land Raider, because I cannot see GW replacing/revamping those kits :lol:

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And the Helbrute aka Chaos Dreadnought. The new plastic kit pretty good and fits the new Chaos aesthetic.

[Deadass]

I'd also consider picking up the Warpsmith and Dark Apostle models, maybe the even power-armored Sorcerer. They're made out of ing finecast, but the designs are great and may be gone very soon.

[CMDR_Welles]

old Abaddon, Bikers, Cultists 5-pack, and the Dark Apostle are no longer available on the GW store (US anyway).

 

These are already getting new models, or will be soon. As others have said, the safest is Forge/Mauler Fiend, Heldrake, Helbrute, Raptors.

 

I'd wait and see what the next few weeks will pan out.

[Deadass]

I can still order the Dark Apostle at the moment here in Germany, but that could change any moment now. I may end up doing it, considering I'm gonna buy Shadowspear anyway...

[Furnace Lord]

Thank you everyone. I didn't realize so many models were getting updates. I just read something about the next Vigilus campaign book, is this where the leaks and updates are coming from? Is Abaddon getting a rules update that anyone knows?

 

In any case, thank you. I think the Shadowspear set will keep me occupied for a while relearning how to paint, and it says it has its own mini-Codex so I don't mind sitting on that for a bit as I watch things develop.

[Sception]

In terms of risk of getting replaced with better models, I'd say the following kits are pretty safe:

- Raptors/Warp Talons

- Heldrake

- Maulerfiend/Forgefiend

- Rhino

- Land Raider

- Predator

- Vindicator

- Helbrute

- Dark Vengeance Stuff (cultists, chosen, lord)

- Haarken Worldclaimer

- Shadowspear Stuff (master of possession, new oblits, new CSMs, greater possessed)

 

 

The following stuff is /definitely unsafe/

- current basic chaos marines

- current oblits

- havocs

- chaos terminators

- dark apostle

 

Everything else is in limbo.

 

 

As for what's safe to buy in terms of being reliably good & competitive /mechanically/?  Eh.......  Hard to say.  Like, basic cultists are by far our best troop option, but it's /super/ clear that the devs are kind of embarrassed by that fact, along with being embarrassed that basic marine bodies in general are kind of baddish in 40k right now, so basic CSMs keep getting little buffs (new bolter rules, slight points decrease, maybe new special/heavy weapon options), while cultists keep seeing little nerfs (points increase most recently), and that's probably a trend that's going to continue over the next year or two of revisions until cultists finally /aren't/  our best troop option anymore, possibly until cultists aren't even a good troop option anymore.
 

Beyond that, Daemon Princes are good.  Jump and termi sorcerers are good, but nobody can say if those will stay available as options.  Bikes have seen some improvements lately, but they're in model limbo, and frankly the existing models feel super out of date.

 

other stuff ranges from slightly above meh to moderately below it.  Our rules in general are in flux right now, and the overall core game rules have been seeing some pretty heavy fluctuation as well, so trying to build a CSM army right now in the hopes that it will stay competitive even a year from now is like grasping at smoke.

 

 

My suggestion would be to get 1-2 boxes of shadowspear, maybe harkon & some raptors if you like them, then just wait for the proper CSM wave to follow.  Once it does, buy the models you like, and don't worry about winning in the competitive sphere until the game overall evens out a bit.

[Warsmith Annüss]

I'd say Blackstone Fortress is worth picking up. It's a stand alone game, plus, everything in there is useable in 40k.

[Sception]

Blackstone fortress has a lot of cool chaos stuff, but there's been some vague indications that traitor guard / lost & the damned / renegades & heretics may be seeing a proper faction of their own in the not-to-distant-future, which will be super cool, but will also mark them out as a separate chaos faction in their own right, like daemons are, with their units available in side detachments in chaos soup lists, but not as part of CSMs proper, to whatever extent that matters to you.

[Furnace Lord]

Thank you. I've seen the models but I'm not too familiar with Blackstone Fortress.

 

Are Possessed considered bad right now? I have searched and not seen glowing praise. I didn't know how much the Shadowspear stuff helps them. Are there any particular builds that are popular on Hellbrutes and Forge/Maulerfiends? I've seen Maulerfiends mentioned a lot but not Forgefiends.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Thank you. I've seen the models but I'm not too familiar with Blackstone Fortress.

 

Are Possessed considered bad right now? I have searched and not seen glowing praise. I didn't know how much the Shadowspear stuff helps them. Are there any particular builds that are popular on Hellbrutes and Forge/Maulerfiends? I've seen Maulerfiends mentioned a lot but not Forgefiends.

 

So right now Possessed are in an....*odd* place. Now bare in mind my perspective is entirely from a Semi-competitive and Casual meta though we do have comp players I play against I just don't partake in tournaments. They are not "trash" IMHO but they have a single major issue.

 

They on the face of hit have good stats, base move 7, ap-1 swings, 2 wounds, a base invul save, str 5. The issue with them is that for their points (20ppm) they have RANDOM attacks. And its not "per model" random attacks which would probably be okay, its a "roll one time for the entire unit, attack that many times per squad member" and this is where the problem is: this edition is defined by damage output for points spent. And unfortunately Possessed just don't have it at the moment. If that D3 rolls up a 1 you better spend a CP to re-roll that number or your "VERY" expensive models are stuck with 1 swing. 

 

You CAN make them work on the table in most settings now given the recent release with Shadowspear by stacking buffs but there is an "opportunity cost" involved. You need to make sure they are a good mark for it (khorne for attacks, or nurgle for buffing/resiliency, possibly slannesh for FNP/movement buff access), and use Pskyers, Greater Possessed, and Strategems to make the unit decent on the table. But as you can guess the cost of this is VERY high in list building. 

 

I myself am looking at a Blob of 20, slam them into something and they will probably shred it and an opponent will have a very hard time chewing through that with buffs on it. So they CAN work but it will limit some of your strat/spell/unit options by cost involved. 

 

As for forgefiends? they are okay but have a similar issue to Possessed. They need some form of support. Maulers and Defilers are just straight up solid on the table stag. Stick them on, and go, for their (relatively) cheap point cost for what you are getting. Forgefiends need some help, often a buff, an aura, or a "daemonforge" strat drop (1 Cp Cost) . 

[Mekhitar]

Possessed are fun and solid, and if you make them slaanesh and take a Sorcerer, they have decent staying power. Their trouble is the random attacks (see previous posts), and that they suffer from not being berserkers, which can be troops (World Eaters) and attack twice.

[yellabelly]

Thanks for this thread! I've just turned to the Chaos Gods for the first time ever, having played quite a few different factions across the old Fantasy and now 40k. Those new models just float my boat, think they look great!

I was mulling over what to do with my shadowspear box, how to build and which legion to go with. The advice in this thread has pretty much firmed up my decision to hold off on anything but shadowspear, and paint them as a homebrew legion. Then I'm not bound to a ruleset because of a colour scheme and can see what happens with the new releases, and if daemonkin, Emperors Children or World Eaters get their own books etc.

[Sception]

I find possessed kinda baddish.  Mostly because of the random number of attacks.  It's not all that easy to deliver them, and then when you do there's a 1/3 chance that they don't even get enough attacks to be threatening.  Mileage will vary, but yeah, I don't like them.  The new greater possessed 2/elite slot heroes seem pretty decent though.  I'd be significantly more inclined to spend an elite slot on a pair of greater possessed than on a unit of regular style.

 

That's all pretty subjective, though.  My competitive experience in 8th really doesn't go very far.

[DracoFox]

Possessed, by themselves, are a kind of sub-par unit. Granted their only real weakness is the random wounds. This can be somewhat alleviated by a Sorcerer casting Diabolic Strength on them, which grants them +2 S and +1 A, so you'll be at 2 A each at worst, although that's about 98 Points or so to crank them past 5/10 for usefullness. The Greater Possessed will also help out a load as they grant nearby Daemons +1 S, but that's another 70 points. Basically they'll be as effective as you want them to be, but you'll have to pay for it.

 

As far as what to buy I'd say snatch up a couple Start Collectings if you can find them. There's nothing bad in them. Same with the Shadowspear box, which is BUILT around the theme of Marines who are BFFs with Daemons theme it sounds like you're going for. Obliterators in particular are FLIPPING BEASTLY THIS EDITION. I'M NOT GOING TO SAY BEST THEY'VE EVER BEEN BUT THIS IS THE BEST THEY'VE EVER BEEN. They can PRETTY RELIABLE take off 1 or 2 units of Primaris Marines a turn, especially with the Endless Cacophony Strategem. I love them. They're so bad.

[Panzer]

Possessed, by themselves, are a kind of sub-par unit. Granted their only real weakness is the random wounds. This can be somewhat alleviated by a Sorcerer casting Diabolic Strength on them, which grants them +2 S and +1 A, so you'll be at 2 A each at worst, although that's about 98 Points or so to crank them past 5/10 for usefullness. The Greater Possessed will also help out a load as they grant nearby Daemons +1 S, but that's another 70 points. Basically they'll be as effective as you want them to be, but you'll have to pay for it.

 

 

Random attacks you mean. ^^

Diabolic Strength on Possessed would be awesome, however unfortunately not a thing. You can cast Diabolic Strength only on a single model, not on a whole unit. The +1S from the Greater Possessed is neat but is not going to make them much better than they already are since you still risk to have your melee unit to have only a single attack per model in 33% of the fights they are in.

[Annatar Giftbringer]

A Master if Possession casting mutated invigoration lets them re-roll number of attacks.

[Dallas Drake]

Thank you. I've seen the models but I'm not too familiar with Blackstone Fortress.

 

Are Possessed considered bad right now? I have searched and not seen glowing praise. I didn't know how much the Shadowspear stuff helps them. Are there any particular builds that are popular on Hellbrutes and Forge/Maulerfiends? I've seen Maulerfiends mentioned a lot but not Forgefiends.

 

Possessed aren't going to be a competitive build in most cases (there are a few example where I think they can cause opponents issues) but they are so much better than they were previously due to the ammount of buffing and support they can be given, this does tend to lead the list to be built around them. The random attacks is frustrating but Possessed can be buffed to be quite nasty now - when your melee are hitting on 2+ and wounding S7 or lower on 2+ with rerolls, causing mortal wounds on 6s, and doing damage 2/3 on 4+/5+ all @ -2AP their damage output is pretty fine in my opinion - Daemonkin Ritualists (which you're running if you're going in with Possessed) helps to give them +1A +1S for 1CP so 2A min, 4A max. A blob of 20 will be pretty much guranteed 40 attacks and could get up to 80. Getting them into combat, we have several options here: warptime, forward operatives, feculant gnarlmaw, renegades, slaanesh herald. I run my Possessed as Nurgle so I either run Renegades (I miss VoTLW though) or Alpha Legion. AL have inbuilt -1 to hit at >12" so that is nice, also I use forward operatives to move them forward 9" and then I usually daisy chain a few back to get within range of my Dark Apostle. I then aim to get a -3 to hit them using AL trait, Miasma, Benediction of Darkness prayer. By now I've moved 9"+7"+D6" so around 19-20" and hopefully have a -3 to be hit (-2 almost guranteed)... Turn 2 I charge and I usually drop a gnarlmaw incase my opponent gets cute so that I have 0+ save and can advance+charge or fall back and charge if they try to tie me up. It's not perfect but it is fun to play with a beer on a Saturday afternoon which is how my 40k runs now I'm a dad. I've run several variations of this list, some with a daemons detachment & gnarlmaw and some with more marines & rely on Incursion from the MoP to drop a Plaguebringer down next to my Possessed for +1S, the Nurgle locus, & Virulent Blessing. I prefer the Daemons support tbh.

 

The big issue with Possessed is the army is kinda built around them and I'm not blind, they're not going to win tournaments as melee < shooing in 8th. Another issue is they really need to charge something of value so you'll want a decent horde clearer supporting them, butcher cannons and chaincannon havocs do this job well, as does mass bolters.

[DracoFox]

 

Possessed, by themselves, are a kind of sub-par unit. Granted their only real weakness is the random wounds. This can be somewhat alleviated by a Sorcerer casting Diabolic Strength on them, which grants them +2 S and +1 A, so you'll be at 2 A each at worst, although that's about 98 Points or so to crank them past 5/10 for usefullness. The Greater Possessed will also help out a load as they grant nearby Daemons +1 S, but that's another 70 points. Basically they'll be as effective as you want them to be, but you'll have to pay for it.

 

 

Random attacks you mean. ^^

Diabolic Strength on Possessed would be awesome, however unfortunately not a thing. You can cast Diabolic Strength only on a single model, not on a whole unit. The +1S from the Greater Possessed is neat but is not going to make them much better than they already are since you still risk to have your melee unit to have only a single attack per model in 33% of the fights they are in.

 

Oh shoot you right.

O well it was a nice dream while it lasted.