Thoughts on a day of Apocalypse?

[Jolemai]

I'm considering attempting to plan an Apocalypse game for my new group, however, this will only be doable over the course of a day (say 10am - 10pm) with the possibility of setting up, deployment, and pre-game the night before. Obviously I want as many players involved as possible and i have the basic idea in mind from previous events elsewhere. However, a few questions:

1. How many PL would you suggest per side for a 12 hour game?
2. Time limit: T1 takes four hours total, T2 takes three, T3 takes two. Plausible? (need to fit in the breaks after all)
3. Table options are 12x6 or 18x6. However, should it be by 4 considering it's only three turns being played?
4. Other things to take into account?

 

 

[Charlo]

I almost wonder if you need to limit targeting in some way.... The biggest hold up of time from our last apocalypse was waiting for someone to be free while resolving saves from another part of the board.

[Vorenus]

I would go with the 12 x 6 table.  

[Diocletian Coros]

The answer is - as so often: It depends ;) 

 

In our group we normally start by 9 or 10 am and are done around 10 to 11 pm - including two larger breaks for food. Last time we had - IIRC - 17.000 points (not PL) per side BUT we divided the battlefield into two sections. On one side I fought to defend the imperial city with 7k points of Custodes, Ultramarines and Imperial Knights vs. 2x 3.5k points worth Tyranids and Orks. On the other side we had two players also defending the city with 2x 2.5 points of Imperial stuff vs. 3x 3.333 points of Chaos, Necrons and Mechanicum. (Yeah, I know - the lore doesn't fit but that are the armies we have...). So we had essential two different parts but kept the turns on sync. 

 

What I'm trying to say is: If everyone fights everyone all over the battlefield the match gets really, really slow. You constantly have to wait for someone so you can shoot at him or to shoot at you. What we are trying to do is simply "divide and conquer". Everyone gets a certain role in a more or less defined area. So he fights only 1-2 people at the same time and they mostly fight against that player. So we reduce the waiting time a lot and can manage to get mostly 4-5 turns out of the day (instead of barely 3 in the past). Yes, you can argue that it is fun to fight all over the battlefield and getting involved with everyone but let me tell you: That does not work well with an apocalypse sized battle.

 

I wouldn't go to strictly into a fixed time slot for the turns if it is just a fun game with buddies. The target should be the fun part of the game and that is killing stuff. Don't make a complicate mission. Just put your armies on the table and beat the :cuss out of each other ;) 

 

As for table size: We tend to build everything centered around a larger imperial city. This will included about all of the points of the imperials and has some cover on it. It is a standard table size maybe including a couple of inches from the surrounding landscape. As for the attackers, they have 2-3 standard table sizes around the imperial city. Sometimes they have to march along the long edges, sometimes the short. Take into account, that you can only reach so far as a human. So having a large square of 3x3 tables makes it impossible to play on the center since you can't reach there. Make a Z or L or T shape with the tables. Makes it a lot easier.

[CommodusXIII]

I almost wonder if you need to limit targeting in some way.... The biggest hold up of time from our last apocalypse was waiting for someone to be free while resolving saves from another part of the board.

 

That's when you have teammates roll your saves for you.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Agreed with having team mates sub for rolls

 

Apoc is made or broken by the group involved.

 

I've played games that had around 120,000 points on the board go relatively smooth and 10k games get jammed up over personality conflicts

 

The right group for such a commitment is vital

[kernbanks]

Coldheart is 100% correct, if you have players that act like they are playing ITC 40k it will drag and the fun will get tossed out the window.  APOC is all about showing off your collection, setting it on the table, and then taking it back off - maybe even putting it back on a couple more times (un-ending tide like stratagems). 

 

With dozens of APOC games under my belt in multiple editions I've developed a method for long ranged 'support' units... if the owner wants them to support another commander (ie shoot at someone not opposite them on the table) then they hand off a card with the number of shots, strength, ap, damage off to the player "calling in the fire" (team mate on the table where the shots are landing) and they resolve it.  This takes a little bit of prep work, but speeds things up A LOT and keeps players where they are supposed to be. 

 

Example:

I bring my 9 basilisks, I set up 3 firing batteries, I have 3 3x5 cards, each card has 3 lines one for each vehicle that looks like this:

 

BS 4+ 5+ 6+ | HEAVY D6 | S9 | ap-2 | d3 D | roll 2d6 for shots and discard the lowest

 

I give away 3 guns at a time (you can do less but I'm old school), they shoot them as they see fit, the card is returned in the morale phase and I'll line through 4+ when a vehicle drops a bracket so the next time I give it away they know. 

 

I do the same for each weapon on my titans, knights, deathstrikes and anything else that can fire long range and ignore LoS.  I also make these type of cards for my fliers, i slide over and do the movement, but hand off the card to the supported commander.  In this case I leave a 3x5 with toughness and save/invul to and the supported guy rolls those saves.

[kernbanks]

As a separate piece, 1 hour caps on player turns is a solid idea.  It only gets really messy when melee starts to get super deep... my groups have typically used the full hour for turns 2 and 3, but typically goes faster on 1 (lots of movement and shooting, but almost no melee) and 4 and 5 (stuff is dying off)...

 

You can probably even do 45minute caps.  I like the small caps as it forces players to choose what is important to them.  And if they spend 10 minutes considering their shots and don't get into melee then that's on them... it's obvious that the commander was too focused on directing shooting and NOT encouraging his (or her) troops to charge the enemy.

[Lord Raven 19]

How soon will it be?

If not for a while, maybe wait for the GW apocalypse set?

[Perry]

Bigger table the better, allows movement and wont look like a car park.

 

We played a 15k per side heresy game recently and had strict 45 minute turns per team.

 

Encourage movement if you are using objectives, my scenario had 3 objectives per side, one placed in your deployment worth 1VP to you per turn, one in no mans land worth 2VP and one in enemy deployment worth 3VP. So to win the game you need to get out your deployment and attack.

[kombatwombat]

The biggest mistake people make with Apoc games is board size. People tend to think ‘ok, this game is about twice/three times/whatever times a 6x4 typically handles, so we’ll make it 12x6 or 12x8. The game mechanics don’t support game boards that wide; you end up with some poor sucker’s close combat units spending 5 turns Advancing trying to get into charge range before being shot off the board. You should feel free to make the board as long as it needs to be to not feel unnecessarily crowded, but don’t go widening it. I’ve also seen people run say a 12x8 and then give both sides a 36” deployment zone to counteract that effect - but it doesn’t work because the Guard/Tau/gunline player just lines up their models along the back and you’re back to square one.

 

TL;DR: make the board as long as needed, but lock it into being 4ft wide.

[Marshal Rohr]

I’d be really interested to see some reviews of people using normal sized 40k armies with the new rules

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I’d be really interested to see some reviews of people using normal sized 40k armies with the new rules

Ash from gorilla wargamig did a vid on that already!

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

 

I’d be really interested to see some reviews of people using normal sized 40k armies with the new rules

Ash from gorilla wargamig did a vid on that already!

Link? And quick thoughts?

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Here you are power level 100: https://youtu.be/m5t3B0KJdZM

 

Which is what about 2Kish in points?

 

I will let you decide if that's the style of game you like, I personally think 40K would massively benefit from some of the rules like not removing units until end of turn, it makes alpha strike armies usable without being the op lusciousness.

 

Some forces will still suffer more than others, you lose a lot of personality in apocalypse as it's more of a narrative clash. The drop in psychers, or at least ability to freely dish out powers tones down armies like thousand sons to feeling more like just different spikey Marines.

 

Although taken in context of a massive battle very very few psychers could actually influence a whole warzone.

 

I feel like more faction specific cards need to be out for command decks. I am pretty salty there are 4 for custodes currently...

[Enuncia]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this.  If I am hijacking the thread, I apologize in advance.

 

I played in a 1vs2 500 (ish) PL game on Sunday.  One of the players on the other team was late in getting there and it only allowed for a few hours of gameplay.  A few thoughts.

 

Disclaimer: I collect models and am really into the lore.  I am a casual player at best.  Take these thoughts with a grain of salt.

 

1.  List building was a challenge for me.  I had to unbox and lay out every model that I had, and figure out how to fit them into detachments.  With 40k I know what I like to play and I know approx. how many points models are and how to run them.  This will come easier with more games and as I learn the system.  I was also using a tablet for the data cards.  PRINT THEM OR BUY THE CARDS.  It will speed your list building (until battlescribe supports new apoc) and will help speed up the game.  With this in mind, I recommend list building before you head to the store.

 

2.  I was the only one at the store who ordered the game set and expansion cards.  Splitting up and deck building with one set of cards (between three people) was a pain.  There is a mechanic were if both players want the same cards, they are put aside, shuffled and distributed evenly between the teams.  I wish they offered the core deck for purchase separate.  I think the cost of the core set and the cards was a turn off to a lot of people at my game store.  We made due with one rule book and one set of tokens just fine.  On the tokens, there are a lot, but they are very high quality and punch out easier than any others that I can remember.

 

3.  The mission we chose had us bid on how long it would take to deploy our armies.  There were boons and penalties for going under or over this time.  That was a blast!  I skimmed through the other missions and they look like they are going to be fun to play.

 

4.  The orders and command assets are an awesome mechanic.  The alternating detachments and applying damage as the last phase of the turn is an awesome mechanic as well.  I spent all of the time during my opponents activation reviewing and pulling tactical cards to play during my activation.  The blast marker mechanic was cool because I had to gamble on how much damage I would need to apply to a unit to kill it.  (I played against necrons, fyi it was a lot). 

 

5.  I did not realize it until after the game, and maybe you all picked up on it right away, but the morale system is a definite way to get something off of the board.  Blast tokens count against morale.  If you need something dead and you do not want to gamble on the opponents saves, stack enough blast tokens to offset their morale.

 

6.  I know apoc is designed to streamline and make the game fast, so I might be a hypocrite on this one, but I miss armies\units\models having special rules.  A lot of units individuality is seems to be gone.  Again, I know this is intentional.  I am just saying, to me, it is very noticeable.

 

7.  I miss rolling tons of dice.  A lot of my big weapons and squads would only roll one or only small amount of dice.  Rolling one dice for the basilisk cannon or only two for a manticore rocket seemed really underwhelming(It doesn't also help that I duffed rolls on 6 different artillery pieces...grrr....).  I know they did this for streamlining, but I still miss the feel of feeling like my artillery is bringing the sky down by rolling a ton of dice.

 

We finished one round in a little over two hours with us stumbling through the rules.  I think it can go faster as the system becomes more familiar.  I have been counting the days down for this release.  I was a little surprised that no one at my flgs ordered the rules and I was barely able to scrape together two other players for a game.  I am also not seeing tons of bat reps or forum posts on the b&c.  I was hoping to see breakdowns of list building and strategies.  Am I missing the big discussion thread somewhere? 

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Great feedback, let me tell you my thoughts on your thought!

 

1 detachments are easier than ever. Vanguard being 3 or more elites to unlock everything else. Rinse and repeat for the spearhead etc. Nomination of a leader for a unit is unique to apoc as you don't have to take an hq. This makes more functional sense in a narrative way. Most units don't require a babysitter.

 

 

2. Is absolutely true. Also it would be great if they just shaved 30 bucks off the box of rules and only offered faction specific cards as a separate purchase I would be super happy. There are two few of some factions.

 

3. Is a hilarious mechanic that really kinda sets a good tone. You are a warmaster and need to understand your forces. Minutes are everything.

 

4. Absolutely true. I had a great time picking to back up to save my unit with one of the most powerful cc units in the game. It for sure saved them.

 

5. Yes moral is as brutal as blasts. Leadership is super important for everyone save nids (if they are in synapse so back to the old shoot the big ones tactic!).

 

6. yes some flavor of units has been lost in favor of story and epic clashes. I agree completely.

 

7. Nope don't miss this. To many d3 random damage shenanigans. Here it is take or leave and this is one of my favorite aspects of the game.