Importance of Chapter Badge vs Colors?

[HighMarshalAmp]

What's less 'acceptable': painting a Chapter in different colors (wether these are usually associated with another Chapter might make a difference) while using their actual badge or painting a Chapter in the right colors but applying another badge?

 

On a friendly table anything should go and at official tournaments both would be a grey zone, but where do these options register on your personal minor-irritations-scale?

[blackbabyjesus]

Personally, painted always trumps anything else. Even if they're 'wrong' they're your miniatures, so I don't care what symbol is on the shoulder.

 

Obviously if they're all painted as blood angels and you're using them as ravenguard for the chapter tactics that's a bit gamey, but it's still better than a grey plastic horde.

[Closet Skeleton]

Chapter badges are just part of the colour scheme. Lots of half decent painters don't even use badges because its time intensive.

 

Ultramarines are blue with white U as their symbol. A chapter with that same white U who were in black armour would be a different chapter, nothing about custom colour schemes says they have to be original. There's nothing tournament illegal about using custom colour schemes, only that official colour schemes have to be used with the associated set of rules.

 

Using Ultramarines badges but painting them red and using Blood Angels rules isn't any different to putting Ultramarine badges on red marines who use the BA rules, its literally the same thing worded differently. If you have a custom colour scheme the rules clearly say you can use what ever chapter rules you want for them.

 

There are already official chapters who have almost identical badges to other official chapters but different colour schemes.

[Sete]

I'm personally thinking on painting my BT shoulder pads inset black with white cross.

It's your minis just do whatever tou feel happy with.

[Ryltar Thamior]

While I can't speak to tournaments ... for me, it would come down to one simple question: "how good's your reasoning".

Bad reasoning would be "A new codex has just come out, and I want to run my Ultramarines with Space Wolf rules for a gameplay advantage". 
*Better* reasoning, would be "my custom chapter fights like x force, despite being painted *similar to* [but not identical to] y force"

Bad reasoning would be "I can't be bothered painting the force I want to represent on the tabletop"
*Better* reasoning would be "I have altered an established colour-scheme for the purposes of better representing what I want to". [which also gets into, say, the various different company markings of the Codex Astartes - want blue-and-red .. but Ultramarines? Then the Fourth Company may very well be for you!] 

Now, there are a few pretty interesting examples of these to be found in fluff. For example, in 30k, almost every legion seems to have at least some Chapters or Companies or other formations that have decidedly non-standard colour-schemes, that may even look rather like those of other Legions [and, of course, like other subsequent 40k chapters]. 

I also seem to recall FW bringing *back* the concept of Marines deploying in camouflaged armour patterns , in the Badab War books - updating some of the RT era patterns for exactly that purpose. 

And if nothing else, the annals of the Successor Chapters, or the firings of your own creativity can probably come up with something to bring together the scheme you want to paint, and the rules you want to run. 

E.g. "Why are those Dark Angels painted silver?" "Those aren't Dark Angels - they're Guardians of the Covenant."
"Why are those Ultramarines painted up like Emperor's Children?" "Those are Hawk Lords" 
and so on and so forth. 

"Why are those Alpha Legion painted up like... ah, wait, I just answered my own question" 

 

[HighMarshalAmp]

It's less a case of 'Can I do it' - of course I can, they're my figurines, if anyone does't want to play me it's their loss - it's more of a case of 'What should I do'.

 

Let's say I really wanted blue Ultramarines with a Dark Angels badge (different codices) but didn't exactly care which codex I was to use, would you prefer treating them as UM or as DA?

Or wouldn't you care either way?

 

Also, let's take it a step further and assume they would have the whole cloaks and swords and wings and incense shabang.

[Gederas]

And if nothing else, the annals of the Successor Chapters, or the firings of your own creativity can probably come up with something to bring together the scheme you want to paint, and the rules you want to run. 

 

E.g. "Why are those Dark Angels painted silver?" "Those aren't Dark Angels - they're Guardians of the Covenant."

"Why are those Ultramarines painted up like Emperor's Children?" "Those are Hawk Lords" 

and so on and so forth. 

 

"Why are those Alpha Legion painted up like... ah, wait, I just answered my own question"

Oh yeah, the Hawk Lords with their Emperor's Children Colour scheme. Same with the Silver Skulls and Iron warriors

 

And really, colour-scheme+chapter tactics doesn't MATTER so long as you say what Chapter Tactic/Codex you're using. For example, when the 8th Edition Marine codex came out, Warhammer Community had an article and it mentioned using the Salamanders Chapter Tactic for the Fire Lords, an Imperial Fists-descended chapter, because that Chapter Tactic fits the Fire Lords' MO more than the Imperial Fists one.

 

It's less a case of 'Can I do it' - of course I can, they're my figurines, if anyone does't want to play me it's their loss - it's more of a case of 'What should I do'.

 

Let's say I really wanted blue Ultramarines with a Dark Angels badge (different codices) but didn't exactly care which codex I was to use, would you prefer treating them as UM or as DA?

Or wouldn't you care either way?

 

Also, let's take it a step further and assume they would have the whole cloaks and swords and wings and incense shabang.

.... That actually would be a pretty interesting look, not gonna lie.

 

And for me, personally? I'd say use which codex YOU, the player of the Ultramarines-blue Dark Angels, want to play. It's your army. :cuss what others say.

 

Like, that's my opinion anyway. I'm making an entirely-black Dark Angels army because I like the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy-era scheme more than the "modern" scheme (and also because the Firstborn are being made to be a 30k/40k force), so ALL my Dark Angels are in those colours.

[MARK0SIAN]

For me it would depend how closely the colour was tied to the chapters identity. BLACK Templars for example should always be black. Blood Angels should be red. So in those cases I’d prefer the correct colour over the correct badge.

 

In other cases though I wouldn’t mind which way round it was, they’re your guys and provided you’re doing it for reasons of taste rather than to get a table advantage i don’t mind :)

[Wassa]

While I can't speak to tournaments ... for me, it would come down to one simple question: "how good's your reasoning".

 

Bad reasoning would be "A new codex has just come out, and I want to run my Ultramarines with Space Wolf rules for a gameplay advantage". 

*Better* reasoning, would be "my custom chapter fights like x force, despite being painted *similar to* [but not identical to] y force"

 

Bad reasoning would be "I can't be bothered painting the force I want to represent on the tabletop"

*Better* reasoning would be "I have altered an established colour-scheme for the purposes of better representing what I want to". [which also gets into, say, the various different company markings of the Codex Astartes - want blue-and-red .. but Ultramarines? Then the Fourth Company may very well be for you!] 

 

 

The benefit of marines is that you can generally run them as whatever chapter you want as the models are practically the same.

 

I like Blood Angel rules and playstyle, but I don't want bright red luminous marines, so I'm painting them as Word Bearers.

[Sandlemad]

Is it justified in your background? Look at FW's night world livery for the Howling Griffons: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Night_World_Color_Scheme.jpg There's room for variants even with chapter colour schemes.

[Rogue]

Let's say I really wanted blue Ultramarines with a Dark Angels badge (different codices) but didn't exactly care which codex I was to use, would you prefer treating them as UM or as DA?

Or wouldn't you care either way?

 

Overall, I wouldn't care, as long as we're both clear what you're playing as. If I had to express a preference, I'm seeing the armour colour more than the shoulder badge, so blue marines with the winged sword on the shoulder are going register as Ultramarines from the other side of the table.

 

In your example, then, I'd tend to think of them as Ultras, and it would be less thought on my part if you played them that way.

[Dracos]

Visually the color scheme is what will grab someone's eye first and foremost. Therefore, while I have nothing against it personally, I would rather see the color either match the Chapter Tactics my opponent is using, or they just go totally original and avoid confusion with a color scheme embedded in the 40k psyche.

 

Not to say using a similar color scheme can't be tweaked enough to work. Black Templar, Raven Guard, and Deathwatch are perfect examples of similar schemes that are original enough that they are easy enough to identify at a glance. 

 

One request of anyone calling their DIY Marines <"Deathwatch"> .  Please, at least make something in the scheme standout that our opponent can easily mentally label as Deathwatch. Maybe it's tabards on all the PA guys, or a right Pauldron painted in a different color than the left, something to help your opponent keep in mind that Bolt Riflecoming down range is -2 AP today ;)

[Kinstryfe]

As said, if it's not the GW standard colour scheme or close to it, then you're free to choose what chapter you play as. Justification is really easy because GW has provided a ton of excuses for it. In no particular order...

 

The Codex Astartes has best practices for nearly all types of warfare. In my opinion, even GW's matching color to tactics rule is too strict, as an Ultramarines reserve company deployed on bikes may basically act like White Scars anyway.

 

The Codex also recommends altering livery and markings frequently so that the enemy can't make use of them. While on one hand Astartes are very proud of their colors and are said to seldom use camouflage, the Codex certainly allows it. I think this could extend to armies altering their colouration for tactical or psychological advantage. Continuing to use Ultramarines as my example, I could imagine a scenario where a force made up of elements of the third company may repaint their armor for various reasons to emphasize the red company color instead of their usual blue.

 

There was precedent during the heresy of chapters or companies or even squads within a Legion wearing different colours as honorifics, adopted group practices, or to reflect their commander's personal style or heraldry. I see no reason why this couldn't apply to a modern chapter, and I imagine the reason we don't see it often is because GW knows that some people will go nuts if it's contradicted later. So if the Ultramarines VIIth company assigned a squad as an honour guard to an Astra Militarum General for the length of a decades long campaign, perhaps those 5 Marines will adopt an honorific from the campaign and wear the General's personal colors on their knees instead of the norm. Perhaps after a lengthy siege fighting alongside elements of the Crimson Fists, the surviving brothers of the Ultramarines garrison adopt a practice of painting their hands crimson as a mark of brotherhood with that chapter. Upon completion of 100 successful campaigns, Captain Generic of the IVth company is honored by allowing his personal guard to bear his heraldry, which explains why a couple of the squads are now sporting yellow and black instead of Ultramarines blue. Any number of reasons could apply to an entire army if desired if you want your army to be an "authentic" deviation.

 

There are plenty of other reasons as well if you look for them. Personally I think we see too much of the standard colour schemes and not enough personalization with markings and honorifics.

[HighMarshalAmp]

.... That actually would be a pretty interesting look, not gonna lie.

That really might be worth a try...

As for the black DA scheme, I like that myself. I thought about doing 1000pts of 30k style DA as a second Chaos Battalion, then I thought they might be better used as Fallen, then I was distracted by something shiny, I guess, and now I've come full circle and want to get started on a 30k IF force like I wanted to 2 years ago. Darn bitz stores still haven't restocked the Sergeant's tabards though.

The issue I have with black DA is that I've already got black Black Templars, black Raven Guard, some black Deathwatch in the making (eyeing the DW for my first Primaris as well) and even my Rubric Marines are black. I'm not gonna lie, I really love my recipe for black, but still...

[Panzer]

What's less 'acceptable': painting a Chapter in different colors (wether these are usually associated with another Chapter might make a difference) while using their actual badge or painting a Chapter in the right colors but applying another badge?

 

On a friendly table anything should go and at official tournaments both would be a grey zone, but where do these options register on your personal minor-irritations-scale?

 

On friendly tables anything goes depending on the opponent.

On tournaments both can be problematic. If you use the chapter badge of a different chapter I could see many tournaments tell you to use that chapters rules. Likewise if you use the colour scheme of one of the big chapters most bigger tournaments would tell you to use those rules.

Now if you for example have Blood Angels with their chapter badge and everything but paint them as Ultramarines ... ask the TO.

 

As for me personally?

Painting a unit with chapter badge of a well known chapter in colours of a different well known chapter would be a no-go. It's just wrong. Their heraldry is a big part of that chapters personality.

Painting a unit with chapter badge of a well known chapter in some other colours you wouldn't instantly identify as a different chapter I'd be perfectly fine though. They could be a successor chapter after all and most people don't bother with roaming the internet for a new chapter badge if GW conveniently provides upgrade sprues and decals already.

Also supposedly Guilliman wrote something about using camouflage in the Codex Astartes (which almost every chapter ignores because having Marines with their distinct colour scheme is better for marketing). In that case they leave their left shoulder pad in chapter colours and badge and have everything else in camouflage. I think the Howling Griffons were mentioned as one of the chapters who do that regularly (which is kinda weird since that's a very knightly chapter lol). Raptors probably too but I never got interested in them and people always paint them in their army green colour scheme anyway.

[Brother Tyler]

There are many Chapters that use similar badges (in terms of shape). For example, the Black Consuls (Ultramarines Successor) and Raptors (Raven Guard Successor) both use a raptor head (along with a number of other Chapters - White Consuls, Mentors, etc.). Likewise, the Emperor's Warbringers (Imperial Fists Successor) and Angels of the Covenant (Dark Angels Successor) both use a badge that depicts crossed swords. And the Imperial Paladins (unknown provenance) and Black Templars (Imperial Fists Successor, but they have their own rules) both use a maltese cross (the Imperial Paladins have a skull in the center, the Black Templars sometimes have a skull in the center). In most of these cases, while the shape of the badge is shared, the coloration differs, but it doesn't have to.

 

Different opponents/settings may allow for different things. I can only speak for what I would do with my own army.

 

If I paint an army as an established Chapter (i.e., one that has a defined livery and rules), I use the prescribed rules for the Chapter. So if I plonk down an army that looks like the Raven Guard (i.e., it uses the coloring and badges of the Raven Guard), I play them as Raven Guard and not, say, the Salamanders. In friendly games (i.e., non-league, non-tournament), if I wanted to experiment with some other rules, I would notify my opponent in advance (I wouldn't do this in pick up games unless I know the opponent well). In competitive play, I would always use the "proper" rules for the faction my army represents.

 

For all of this, though, simply having black armour (with or without white arms/pauldrons) wouldn't constitute a "Raven Guard" army. It would also have to use the appropriate Chapter badge. Similarly, this concept extends to other factions. For example, an army (or detachment) painted to represent Saim Hann Asuryani woud use the Saim Hann rules (and not, say, Iyanden).

 

DIYs are another subject, though, and allow for a lot more creativity in representation. Something I tend to do, though, is make sure that my DIYs don't look too close to an official faction/sub-faction. So I'm not going to paint my Space Marines blue and give them a white agemo Chapter badge and then play them as Blood Angels. I might collect blue Space Marines that are played as Blood Angels, but there will be some Blood Angel aspects to their appearance (e.g., blood drops, death masks). If I collect an army that doesn't match an official Chapter, though, there's freedom to do things. For example, a blue Space Marines force doesn't have to be Ultramarines. If I plan to allow for that freedom, though, I'm not going to use a matching Chapter badge. So a blue army only has to be Ultramarines if it has the agemo - if it uses some other badge, there's room to maneuver. Similarly, black Space Marines with a green Maltese cross aren't necessarily "Black Templars" (perhaps they're a White Scars successor).

 

As for what I would "expect" from my opponent, that would depend on the setting. In friendly games, anything reasonable goes. In leagues/tournaments, while overall league/tournament rules allowances might vary, I would expect my opponent to demonstrate some level of sportsmanship by not doing anything confusing.

[ShibeKing]

I have a few emblems I'm trying to paint freehand as a chapter badge for my custom chapter. Coming up with a unique icon is a crazy hurdle and I've settled on trying to do the Quake 3 emblem. However, I am terrible at painting and my second attempt at this project is sitting in Simple Green right now and I regret even trying in the first place.

 

Therefore, I don't really blame anyone for using official Marine Upgrade sprues and saying their chapter just uses the same emblem. To hell with freehand...

[Hellebras]

I don't really care what my opponent's doing so long as they're open with any counts-as, let me know what rules they're using, and are cool with me asking for reminders mid-game if they've done something a bit odd.

 

As for me, I'm actively considering painting Vanguard IF units in full urban camouflage aside from the left pauldrons (still gotta proudly show the Chapter's heraldry, damn it!), so it's not like I get to throw stones anyway.

[War Angel]

It's less a case of 'Can I do it' - of course I can, they're my figurines, if anyone does't want to play me it's their loss - it's more of a case of 'What should I do'.

 

Let's say I really wanted blue Ultramarines with a Dark Angels badge (different codices) but didn't exactly care which codex I was to use, would you prefer treating them as UM or as DA?

Or wouldn't you care either way?

 

Also, let's take it a step further and assume they would have the whole cloaks and swords and wings and incense shabang.

This is an expensive hobby, and if you like both armies but don't want to buy double the tactical squads, that's a smart way to stretch your dollar. I could see tournaments having an issue with this but if you say "they arnt ultramarines, they're (name), dark angle successors" you should be fine.

[TheTrans]

Honestly do what ever you want mate. The marine codex's aren't all all over powered and there is only a few select choices.

To me the main one is 1 colour = chapter tactic (/wolves/bloodies/DA etc). So you want to try out using the DA rules for your 4th Company Ultramarines, as being a line company you think they are more suited to standing still and firing away, sweet! Go for it!

But lets say you've got a detachment of using the BA Trait, a Detachment using the DA Trait and a detachment of Actual Ultramarines, but they are all using your blue ultramarine minis, this is more of a no-go as its confusing in large amounts. "Which blue marines have what again?"

So use what ever chapter tactic you want with what ever existing or made up colour scheme you want, same as 'proxying' characters. Have at it!

I for one use the Blood Angels rules for my Late-War Astral Claws as the +1 to wound when charging meshes in well with them being experienced marine fighters over 10 years. My 2k Army has 3 detachments, but they are BA doctrine front to back to avoid confusion. 

 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

But lets say you've got a detachment of using the BA Trait, a Detachment using the DA Trait and a detachment of Actual Ultramarines, but they are all using your blue ultramarine minis, this is more of a no-go as its confusing in large amounts. "Which blue marines have what again?"

 

 

 

This really is the main point for me. I fought an Ynnari army once with separate detachments of Ynnari, Ulthwé, and Alaitoc, but they were all painted the same so my targeting priority was all screwy.

[Panzer]

But lets say you've got a detachment of using the BA Trait, a Detachment using the DA Trait and a detachment of Actual Ultramarines, but they are all using your blue ultramarine minis, this is more of a no-go as its confusing in large amounts. "Which blue marines have what again?"

 

 

Agreed. Same as when each of those detachments is painted in a different colour but all colour schemes taken from well known chapters.

"So those Salamander green guys are my White Scars ... those Ultramarine blue guys are my Blood Angels ... and these Space Wolf baby blue guys are my Dark Angels" ... please what? Keep it simple for your opponents. You might have thought everything through and are familiar with your army but your opponent might see it only twice a month or even rarer and otherwise doesn't waste a single thought about your army inbetween.

[HighMarshalAmp]

You keep talking about how an opponent won't know what to shoot at...

...but how am I myself supposed to remember which Squad is who in this scenario?