Charlo Posted March 12, 2019 Author Share Posted March 12, 2019 The spear look ace imo dont know why would you throw it away Last ditch effort I suppose. S7 is INCREDIBLY iffy though. IMO it would need to be S10 on the throw to be really worth it.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 The spear look ace imo dont know why would you throw it away Last ditch effort I suppose. S7 is INCREDIBLY iffy though. IMO it would need to be S10 on the throw to be really worth it.... Maybe if you play against Demons to get the Swort? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 The spear look ace imo dont know why would you throw it away Last ditch effort I suppose. S7 is INCREDIBLY iffy though. IMO it would need to be S10 on the throw to be really worth it.... Maybe if you play against Demons to get the Swort? I have a feeling that someone at HQ was like "he needs a backup sword....because BL is writing a short story called Moonsilver." So Simon Egan then had to add in a secondary sword to the scabbard, and then the rules team had to go from there, since rules writers are the bottom of the food chain at GW (alas). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 I like the spear & sword combo. The blade is excellent against daemons and the spear is nothing to sniff at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Throwing the spear is indeed a bit strange since it does not come back and spear throw is not very epic, to be fair. I think (psychologically speaking) this option takes away from spear awesomness, since without it people would just compare melee stats hehe. Moonsilver is also a bit "forced", I agree. Unless there are W2 <T5 demon units I literally can't see a use for it because S7 + shred or spear charge is just so much better in dealing reliable wounds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Throwing the spear is indeed a bit strange since it does not come back and spear throw is not very epic, to be fair. I think (psychologically speaking) this option takes away from spear awesomness, since without it people would just compare melee stats hehe. Moonsilver is also a bit "forced", I agree. Unless there are W2 <T5 demon units I literally can't see a use for it because S7 + shred or spear charge is just so much better in dealing reliable wounds. Spear of Telesto AND Encarmine Blade is a bit much. Spear of Telesto being thrown One Use Only then.....fists? Makes no sense. Spear of Telesto with Infernus shooting profile instead of infernus as seperate shooting weapon = makes more sense to me. As I mentioned above, I'd like to see Encarmine Blade w/ Duellist's Edge + Master Crafted to make it the Light option that is an actual choice compared to the Heavy option of the spear...do you try to take foes down in a single blow with the spear or do death by a thousand cuts with the (super reliable but "standard") sword? I just can't wait to get some reps with him on the table to see what actually happens. Enough Theoryhammer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
7onyMustDive Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Throwing the spear is indeed a bit strange since it does not come back and spear throw is not very epic, to be fair. I think (psychologically speaking) this option takes away from spear awesomness, since without it people would just compare melee stats hehe. Moonsilver is also a bit "forced", I agree. Unless there are W2 <T5 demon units I literally can't see a use for it because S7 + shred or spear charge is just so much better in dealing reliable wounds. Spear of Telesto AND Encarmine Blade is a bit much. Spear of Telesto being thrown One Use Only then.....fists? Makes no sense. Spear of Telesto with Infernus shooting profile instead of infernus as seperate shooting weapon = makes more sense to me. As I mentioned above, I'd like to see Encarmine Blade w/ Duellist's Edge + Master Crafted to make it the Light option that is an actual choice compared to the Heavy option of the spear...do you try to take foes down in a single blow with the spear or do death by a thousand cuts with the (super reliable but "standard") sword? I just can't wait to get some reps with him on the table to see what actually happens. Enough Theoryhammer. I've actually been wondering if the sword is better against Primarchs and Eternal Warrior Characters. The constant +1 strength and reroll to wounds seems better at Primarch dueling than the spear even with the roll 6 for extra wound. I'm not sure though, can someone mathhammer this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Sword is superior, no doubt. You'll not kill a primarch in a single turn and on second turn you'll be wounding on 4+/3+ with reroll while spear is just 4+. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixOfOne Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Throwing the spear is indeed a bit strange since it does not come back and spear throw is not very epic, to be fair. I think (psychologically speaking) this option takes away from spear awesomness, since without it people would just compare melee stats hehe. Moonsilver is also a bit "forced", I agree. Unless there are W2 <T5 demon units I literally can't see a use for it because S7 + shred or spear charge is just so much better in dealing reliable wounds. Spear of Telesto AND Encarmine Blade is a bit much. Spear of Telesto being thrown One Use Only then.....fists? Makes no sense. Spear of Telesto with Infernus shooting profile instead of infernus as seperate shooting weapon = makes more sense to me. As I mentioned above, I'd like to see Encarmine Blade w/ Duellist's Edge + Master Crafted to make it the Light option that is an actual choice compared to the Heavy option of the spear...do you try to take foes down in a single blow with the spear or do death by a thousand cuts with the (super reliable but "standard") sword? I just can't wait to get some reps with him on the table to see what actually happens. Enough Theoryhammer. I've actually been wondering if the sword is better against Primarchs and Eternal Warrior Characters. The constant +1 strength and reroll to wounds seems better at Primarch dueling than the spear even with the roll 6 for extra wound. I'm not sure though, can someone mathhammer this? Against a generic WS7/8, T6, 4++ Primarch it would be something like this (in a vacuum, so no charge or rampage). Sanguinius (Encarmine) attacks 6 times, hits 3.96 times, wounds 3.4761 times, causes 1.738 wounds after saves (IWND will reduce this to 1.147) Sanguinius (Telesto) attacks 6 times, hits 4.1778 times, wounds 2.43705 times, causes 1.2185 wounds after saves (IWND will reduce this to 0.8042) - WoA Basically, in Primarch fights only ever use the Blade Encarmine. Shred is simply too good in that situation. The Spear is for use against vehicles really or for ID T5 and above models, hence why it is AP1 on the charge. Either way, with the Encarmine Blade Sanguinius may not beat every primarch in a vacuum, but he will for sure cause the majority of them problems. This is even more evident when you get the charge. On charge w. Encarmine - Sanguinius HoW for 0.83 wounds, 0.416 after saves. Sanguinius then attacks 8 times, hits 5.28 times, wounds 4.6348 times, for 2.317 wounds after saves (total 2.733 wounds). Basically you're almost half-way to killing a 'regular statline primarch' in a single round of combat. He's not even that dependent on the charge as he gains his Sire bonuses in the first turn of any combat - you only lose out on HoW. (Although you potentially lose out on one additional attack. I'm honestly not entirely sure if the +1 attack from Sire is meant to stack with the +1 attack from charging.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 These are two independent rules, I can't see a reason why they wouldn't stack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixOfOne Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 These are two independent rules, I can't see a reason why they wouldn't stack. I completely agree, but part of me can see people arguing the other way. A word of clarification from FW would be nice either way I suppose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Nice work, @SixOfOne. I'm sure it's terrible to calculate, but how does the 6's To Wound = 2 Wounds thing from the Spear affect performance? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixOfOne Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Nice work, @SixOfOne. I'm sure it's terrible to calculate, but how does the 6's To Wound = 2 Wounds thing from the Spear affect performance? It adds about 0.34 wounds on average. It doesn't make the spear worth taking over the sword really, but then again, you could roll 3 6s to wound and straight up kill the enemy primarch. Basically treat it like Murderous Strike, nice when it activates, but not something to rely on. Ultimately though both of the weapons have a specific role. The sword is best taken against Marines, where ID is pretty useless overall (it's not like it's going to make a huge difference killing a generic praetor) and when you might face a Primarch. The spear should be taken against Custodes or Mechanicum or Questoris Knights where the ID and S bonus is more important. The main issue I see with Sanguinius is that he needs a bodyguard cos' while he's as fast as Corax and Curze he's not as survivable against shooting. But then, Sanguinius and a bodyguard is going to murder basically anything in a turn unless you roll really badly, which just restarts the problem. What you're ending up with is a more manueverable Primarchstar, but that's still going to end up as a ton of points. I've seen someone argue recently that Sanguinius is actually more survivable against shooting than Corax because of this, based on the fact that you can pod 10 seekers with Combi-plas and shoot him to death. But unless your opponent is playing Corax terribly, that's probably not going to work. Basically (and apologies for the slight ramble), Sanguinius is by no means bad, but he's slightly too good at killing everything quickly which will leave him open and he requires a bodyguard. The weapon options have pros and cons and mean that he'll often be better at some things than others, unlike some Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5275852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-soul Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 I think the main difference between sword and spear is - are you going to kill enemy units on charge. But I think sword is all comers choice - you don't have to rely on charge and don't worry about 2+ turns of close combat (considering lack of Hit and run) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5276557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliesin Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Looks like no Sanguinius or Malevolence on pre-order this week either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5276836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Tal Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Again we have FW trolling with some rats... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5276844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranwulf Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 And now we have a Flying Gargantuan Creature that is also a character...and Sanguinius with wings can't fly. Ran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5279946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Who's not an independent character, there's a significant difference. Simply put, it can be challenged and triggers a few types of preferred enemy. Gotta say you were the first thing I thought of when I saw his unit type and howd there be a post like this lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5279975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 sanguinius really should have had the ability to move as a FMC, it would be simple to simply say he had a rule like "living angel" and say that meant for movement purposes he is treated as an FMC. It also would ensure that he is differentiated from his legion in that they are just very good with jump packs, whereas he would be a natural born flyer - just like the books. and his pistol should have been an actual pistol that isn't single use. those two things I think would have meant most people would be happy with him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5280135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 You mean moving 24" being hit on 6 with shooting safe from charges having jink when he glides ... until he decides to charge whenever he wants, destroys a unit and flying back to safety on heights? Yeah...Nope. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5280143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranwulf Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 You mean moving 24" being hit on 6 with shooting safe from charges having jink when he glides ... until he decides to charge whenever he wants, destroys a unit and flying back to safety on heights? Yeah...Nope. Would make much more sense to how he is this charging primarch that then will becoming a middling fighter against anything else after his first turn. If he is thing is charging, than at least giving the ability to move through the battlefield and pick his targets makes sense. In fact, how many ways has Sanguinius leaved his sons to fight alone flying all around the battlefield? Thats thematic and fluffy. I wage the reason is that he wants to be nice to his sanguinary guard and so they catch up wi- oh wait they are not even in the book. Seriously, of all Primarchs, I found him to so unthematic and close to what he is described thematically that it annoys me to no end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5280167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Of all the things that will change, buffing Sang's pistol and altering his movement rules are the most likely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5280199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 You mean moving 24" being hit on 6 with shooting safe from charges having jink when he glides ... until he decides to charge whenever he wants, destroys a unit and flying back to safety on heights? Yeah...Nope. Would make much more sense to how he is this charging primarch that then will becoming a middling fighter against anything else after his first turn. If he is thing is charging, than at least giving the ability to move through the battlefield and pick his targets makes sense. In fact, how many ways has Sanguinius leaved his sons to fight alone flying all around the battlefield? Thats thematic and fluffy. I wage the reason is that he wants to be nice to his sanguinary guard and so they catch up wi- oh wait they are not even in the book. Seriously, of all Primarchs, I found him to so unthematic and close to what he is described thematically that it annoys me to no end. Let's be serious he's better in combat than most primarch. Calling him a middling fighter is . Show me the other primarch that can deliver 8+ WS9, I8, attacks at S9, Ignoring saves + instant death on the charge. Not counting S10AP2 HoW. He has the ability to move around the field - he has 12" movement, he ignores terrain and units, he can reroll charges and he can run. If you find it unfair that he cannot charge from his deployment zone turn one, how do you feel about other primarchs who have no ability to fly whatsoever? Mayby they should be buffed to? And tell me how he's described thematically (hint: no head canon). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5280219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 "Middling fighter" I'm sorry, WS9, with str7, 6 attacks, shred and rampage is not at all a middling fighter. It's one of the best melee statlines. Or insta deathing everything around you, which ruins custodes, mechanicum and the newly released daemons. Yea he's middling like vulkan or alpharius or the rest. "If he is charging, at least let him move through the battlefield and pick his targets" He does. He gets a jump pack, for twice the speed of an average primary, and then he gets to use it in the assault phase. That means rerolls with other units and, most importantly, being able to move over screening models with skyborne. Oh and no scatter deepstrike. He can absolutely move through the battlefield and pick his targets; he's one of the most manoeuvrable primary's with corax and jaghatai. You keep on using thematic and fluffy to say that his rules don't fit. He's extremely brutal in combat, so that fits. He uses his wings, so that fits too. There's a whole aspect to him being the most liked and super nice to everyone, but that's outside of combat. I personally don't remember any scenes of him flying next to a fire raptor, or ditching his legion to go flying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5280235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranwulf Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 You mean moving 24" being hit on 6 with shooting safe from charges having jink when he glides ... until he decides to charge whenever he wants, destroys a unit and flying back to safety on heights? Yeah...Nope. Would make much more sense to how he is this charging primarch that then will becoming a middling fighter against anything else after his first turn. If he is thing is charging, than at least giving the ability to move through the battlefield and pick his targets makes sense. In fact, how many ways has Sanguinius leaved his sons to fight alone flying all around the battlefield? Thats thematic and fluffy. I wage the reason is that he wants to be nice to his sanguinary guard and so they catch up wi- oh wait they are not even in the book. Seriously, of all Primarchs, I found him to so unthematic and close to what he is described thematically that it annoys me to no end. Let's be serious he's better in combat than most primarch. Calling him a middling fighter is . Show me the other primarch that can deliver 8+ WS9, I8, attacks at S9, Ignoring saves + instant death on the charge. Not counting S10AP2 HoW. He has the ability to move around the field - he has 12" movement, he ignores terrain and units, he can reroll charges and he can run. If you find it unfair that he cannot charge from his deployment zone turn one, how do you feel about other primarchs who have no ability to fly whatsoever? Mayby they should be buffed to? And tell me how he's described thematically (hint: no head canon). -No foresight, an ability that has ALWAYS been described as part of what he does. -Nothing that showcases how is one of the most beloved Primarchs of the Imperium, if not the MOST beloved. -He fights well for a turn, and thats it. Thats his biggest problem, because most of the time his battles are against big units that will survive more than one turn. He even loses to Kabandha, which happens once and then he is supposed to be able to fight back. Is this supposed to be the Primarch that hold the Eternity Gate against thousands of Deamons alone? That broke Kabandhas back on Terra? I don't expect him to be able to beat all the other Primarchs, that was never actually his thing. His two Primarch fights were against Horus and Curze, and he didnt win (nor lose to Curze). -And again, a Primarch with WINGS move EXACTLY like a regular marine with Jump Pack. Thats absolutely ridiculous. I don't care what you say in this matter, you literally cannot change the simple fact that it makes no sense whatsover that he cannot move better than that. I play Blood Angels for a decade, and as much his rules are not necessarily bad, they don't feel thematic at all. Ran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354469-sanguinius-full-rules-for-30k/page/2/#findComment-5280249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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