Sanguinius Full Rules for 30k

[Slips]

Alright then, I'll ask:

What rules would you personally give him to make him as true-to-the-fluff as possible while keeping him at his current point cost?

[rendingon1+]

-No foresight, an ability that has ALWAYS been described as part of what he does.

 

Yea, the writers at the Weekenders said that they wanted to imply psychic abilities beyond "simple" game mechanics of ML 1, 2, 3, etc...

 

Aka why is the Khan able to choose what side of the board he can come in from? Why do Curze's Widowmakers ignore armor/invuln saves? Why is Sanguinius able to get up to I9* in a challenge?

 

...because it is implied "passive" psychic abilities.

 

...not defending the move, just reiterating what I was told 1:1 with the writers.

 

*Sanguinius = I7 base, +1I in first round of combat +1I from Moonsilver Blade's Duelist Edge = I9 in a challenge.

 

-Nothing that showcases how is one of the most beloved Primarchs of the Imperium, if not the MOST beloved.

And what about it? What does it have to do with his combat performance?

 

-He fights well for a turn, and thats it. Thats his biggest problem, because most of the time his battles are against big units that will survive more than one turn.

1. You're just wrong. He's a top fighter. You make it sound like his chrge turn does not count or something, and he's just stuck with "mere" WS9, I7, S7 shred, 7-9A. You do realize that his "non charge" attack capabilities are better then some primarchs on the charge (or in general)? 

2. What units? Give examples. If you charge him into fearless tarpits or 10 Storm shield + chaplain IF...that's your fault. And if you think you can throw a primarch at anything and win (or wipe out a unit entirely)...

He even loses to Kabandha, which happens once and then he is supposed to be able to fight back. Is this supposed to be the Primarch that hold the Eternity Gate against thousands of Deamons alone? That broke Kabandhas back on Terra? I don't expect him to be able to beat all the other Primarchs, that was never actually his thing. His two Primarch fights were against Horus and Curze, and he didnt win (nor lose to Curze).

3. Because It's fluff. He also rips a head of the Eldar Titan with his bare hands. Fluff does not match crunch in tabletop, I think it's pretty much obvious.

-And again, a Primarch with WINGS move EXACTLY like a regular marine with Jump Pack. Thats absolutely ridiculous. I don't care what you say in this matter, you literally cannot change the simple fact that it makes no sense whatsover that he cannot move better than that.

4. Let's agree to disagree.

I play Blood Angels for a decade, and as much his rules are not necessarily bad, they don't feel thematic at all.

ok.

 

Ran

 

[Blindhamster]

Alright then, I'll ask:

 

What rules would you personally give him to make him as true-to-the-fluff as possible while keeping him at his current point cost?

make his pistol a pistol that isn't one shot.

 

Replace his current "great wings" rule with:

 

Great Wings

Sanguinius is a living angel with wings as mighty as any beast, Sanguinius follows the movement rules for flying monstrous creatures with the same flight mode options. However he does not gain the jink or vector strike rules.

 

 

keep sky strike exactly as is.

 

So what this means is:

 

he has to choose to glide or swoop, just like a FMC, when gliding he is actually a little slower than he currently is (cant use his "jump pack" in both movement and assault phase.

if he switches mode, he cannot charge, just like an FMC. If he is swooping he can only make a single 90 degree pivot, but can run further and is faster when doing so. he cannot be charged or charge whilst swooping. If he suffers a wound whilst swooping he has to take grounding tests etc. if he is swooping, he can choose to use the skyfire rule for his ranged attacks, or not choose to use it. If he goes off the table he goes to ongoing reserves. He also loses the no scatter deep strike. But ultimately its more thematic.

[Ranwulf]

 

Alright then, I'll ask:

 

What rules would you personally give him to make him as true-to-the-fluff as possible while keeping him at his current point cost?

make his pistol a pistol that isn't one shot.

 

Replace his current "great wings" rule with:

 

Great Wings

Sanguinius is a living angel with wings as mighty as any beast, Sanguinius follows the movement rules for flying monstrous creatures with the same flight mode options. However he does not gain the jink or vector strike rules.

 

keep sky strike exactly as is.

 

So what this means is:

 

he has to choose to glide or swoop, just like a FMC, when gliding he is actually a little slower than he currently is (cant use his "jump pack" in both movement and assault phase.

if he switches mode, he cannot charge, just like an FMC. If he is swooping he can only make a single 90 degree pivot, but can run further and is faster when doing so. he cannot be charged or charge whilst swooping. If he suffers a wound whilst swooping he has to take grounding tests etc. if he is swooping, he can choose to use the skyfire rule for his ranged attacks, or not choose to use it. If he goes off the table he goes to ongoing reserves. He also loses the no scatter deep strike. But ultimately its more thematic.

 

That, and "Legiones Astartes/Imperial Units"  receive +1 LD when he is on the battlefield or can see him, if he is zooming, then everyone counts as being able to see him.

 

And seriously, his Precognition is such an easy rule, it even exists in 40k. Allow him to reroll one die either per turn, or per battle. Give him D3 rerolls of such if it feels to weak.

 

Even if he is not a murder machine in the battlefield, if he had theses rules I would be content because of theme.

 

Ran

[rendingon1+]

MAking it a "pistol" will give him additional attack. Clever but I don't think he should have additional attack. I agree with removing "one use only" though. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

@ranwulf

 

The beloved thing is a little two fold. He is, for sure. Everyone loves seeing him, especially normal dudes. But in war he's described as extremely ferocious, with little of that "beloved by all" thing going on. So while he does inspire his dudes a bit (and I could see that getting buffed to a larger radius), his main focus is on killing.

 

But he is a murder machine on the battlefield.... And his psychic stuff only started to kick in post signus. Notice how Curze doesn't get any of his foresight either in game?

 

@blindhamster

I agree on the gun in that it shouldn't be one shot.

 

Vector strike is literally sky strike.

 

So with those rules, what would incentivize anyone to swoop over glide. The eternal problem with FMC is that the melee focused ones do not want to be swooping, ever. The turn you change back to gliding you can't charge, so if you take advantage of glide to position him turn 1, you need to wait until turn 3 to charge. He's literally slower to get into combat as an FMC, he doesn't have multiple shooting weapons to take advantage of, and already vector strikes.

 

Also once again, point to the fluff where he just takes off to fly around by himself next to planes mid-battle 

[Blindhamster]

in Titan Death and in Fear to Tread he has scenes of flying way above the main battle doing his own thing, in imperium secundus he has a scene where he chooses to fly full speed and notes that nobody else could keep pace with him when he does.

 

I personally don't think he should get all the things ranwulf is suggesting without going up in cost.

 

and yeah, the ruleset sucks :P you swoop turn 1, you can't charge till turn 3, but thats a limitation of the crappy ruleset, not really anything else. maybe he'd need a special adjustment to say he can charge on a turn he switches flight mode - so turn 2. He just feels like he should be faster than he is.

 

i guess another way to do it, would be to say his great wings rule allows him to run and charge in the same turn. So: 12" move, 1d6 run plus charge. And then the 1 shot ranged weapons don't feel so mean lol.

[Ranwulf]

in Titan Death and in Fear to Tread he has scenes of flying way above the main battle doing his own thing, in imperium secundus he has a scene where he chooses to fly full speed and notes that nobody else could keep pace with him when he does.

 

I personally don't think he should get all the things ranwulf is suggesting without going up in cost.

 

and yeah, the ruleset sucks you swoop turn 1, you can't charge till turn 3, but thats a limitation of the crappy ruleset, not really anything else. maybe he'd need a special adjustment to say he can charge on a turn he switches flight mode - so turn 2. He just feels like he should be faster than he is.

 

i guess another way to do it, would be to say his great wings rule allows him to run and charge in the same turn. So: 12" move, 1d6 run plus charge. And then the 1 shot ranged weapons don't feel so mean lol.

Yeah, points wise he would need adjusments.

 

But I like the idea that he can and charge in the same turn. Sure he is not moving THAT much more, but it closer to the flavor. Maybe even allowing the Run being a fix number.

 

Ran

[SkimaskMohawk]

For 500 Id be fine with getting old fleet in addition to his current stuff.

[Omega-soul]

My suggestion is

WS8 BS5 S6 T6 W6 A6 I6  500points

 

Sire of Blood angels - instead of Attack - give 1 strengh (funny enough but that was in the article at warhammer community) - that is vital to have a S8 on a Blade, and handy with S10 on spear (as it don't have armourbane)

 

Infernus - range 18"  s8 ap1 pistol1 twin-linked(or master-crafted) melta

 

Blade Encarmine - s+1 ap2 melee shred rampage deathfire

Spear of Telesto - instead of throwing - One use flamer-template shot s7 ap1 instant death haywire and some fancy rule that states - you can place template over your blood angels models (as energy of telesto doesn't hurt blood of sanguinius - that is literally in books)

Spear of Telesto -  remove wrath of angels, add - Righteous judgement -instead of all attacks this model can choose to make 1 single attack that automaticaly hits and wounds every model in base contact.

Moonsilver  blade - add Hex/Null/Phase-balde - invulnerable save cannot be taken against wounds from this weapon, remove Blind and Master-crafted

 

Resplendant regalia - remove re-rolls

Great wings - Add hit and run , remove no scatter, add  all jump infantry units in same detachment scatter using one d6 instead of normal 2d6  

 

Angelic presence - total change of rule - all units in 12 inches gain fearless. If this model is slain all legiones astartes blood angels units gain Furious charge and Rage.

 

New rule 

Angel prescience - at the beginig of every turn controling player get 1 dice + number of turn dice, which he can use to re-roll any rolls made for Sanguinius model during that turn.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So you think losing 1 ws and I, and reroll invul on charge is enough to make all those buffs 15 points? Fearless bubble alone is worth at least 15, as is the army wide buff to deepstrike. Escalating rerolls? Permanent and buffed gun? grossly op melee weapons? 15 points lol

 

Now to the part that really annoys me, the weapons. They're very clearly split as is between mass damage and multi wound removal; you have to give up some functionality of one to get the bonuses of the other.

 

But not with those changes. You get that "vital" strength 8 with the blade, so you can ID marine characters and deathfire to chop down multi wounds; shred and rampage still give you a massive range of attacks and reliability. Then the spear, with keeping its extremely high stat line and instant death and armour bane, now has a guaranteed horde capability in melee. Wrath of angels adds about 1 more wound, so its not very special; this thing against large amounts of guys in base contact is now better than the sword. Did I say large amounts, because I really meant like 6, since even with the charge and 3 attacks from rampage you only kill 6.3 (not counting the infinite rerolls you've given him, its 8 with those). Or you could just auto hit and wound and instant death everything.

 

Make him 700 and I'd call those rules fair.    

[Charlo]

While I can understand some frustrations that Sanguinius isn't able to swoop across the board, roflstomp some traitors in one go and then repeat Ad nauseam... Do consider how that would make him to play against on the tabletop. It would be horrific. Currently, there is very little in the way of good, AP2 anti-air in the Heresy and without it he's be functionally invincible bar some lucky rolls.

 

After the utter controversy that Russ and Magnus were upon release I can understand why the team was wary with Sanguinius.

 

Personally, I think his rules are incredible. No Primarch can ever be captured in full splendour, as any and all accounts of them are due to some exaggeration etc.

 

My only gripe is that they gave him a weird one-shot pistol not-melta pistol instead of giving the Spear a ranged energy blast akin to the fluff.

[rendingon1+]

My suggestion is

WS8 BS5 S6 T6 W6 A6 I6  500points

 

Sire of Blood angels - instead of Attack - give 1 strengh (funny enough but that was in the article at warhammer community) - that is vital to have a S8 on a Blade, and handy with S10 on spear (as it don't have armourbane)

 

Infernus - range 18"  s8 ap1 pistol1 twin-linked(or master-crafted) melta

 

Blade Encarmine - s+1 ap2 melee shred rampage deathfire

Spear of Telesto - instead of throwing - One use flamer-template shot s7 ap1 instant death haywire and some fancy rule that states - you can place template over your blood angels models (as energy of telesto doesn't hurt blood of sanguinius - that is literally in books)

Spear of Telesto -  remove wrath of angels, add - Righteous judgement -instead of all attacks this model can choose to make 1 single attack that automaticaly hits and wounds every model in base contact.

Moonsilver  blade - add Hex/Null/Phase-balde - invulnerable save cannot be taken against wounds from this weapon, remove Blind and Master-crafted

 

Resplendant regalia - remove re-rolls

Great wings - Add hit and run , remove no scatter, add  all jump infantry units in same detachment scatter using one d6 instead of normal 2d6  

 

Angelic presence - total change of rule - all units in 12 inches gain fearless. If this model is slain all legiones astartes blood angels units gain Furious charge and Rage.

 

New rule 

Angel prescience - at the beginig of every turn controling player get 1 dice + number of turn dice, which he can use to re-roll any rolls made for Sanguinius model during that turn.

You forgot to add:

Foresight - Sanguinius has Precognition power (Divination Discipline) which is cast automatically each psychic phase without spending warp charges. Sanguinius does not count as psyker for rules and effects that affect psykers (like psyk-out grenades) unless they are beneficial.

 

Have you ever played HH game before? Just curious...

[Charlo]

Also, I'd say Sanguinius' foresight is captured just fine in his re-rollable 4+ in the first round of combat & no scatter deep strike.

[Blindhamster]

If they fixed his gun and gave him hit and run he would probably be perfect tbh, the more I think on it.

[Ranwulf]

Also, I'd say Sanguinius' foresight is captured just fine in his re-rollable 4+ in the first round of combat & no scatter deep strike.

 

His no scatter deep strike has been an ability Dante had for years. It has nothing to do with Precognition, and while I accept that his 4+ rerollable could be that, it doesn't look like anything displayed on the fluff.

 

Just use Corbulo old ability of a reroll. Its the same concept.

 

Ran

[Gorgoff]

If they fixed his gun and gave him hit and run he would probably be perfect tbh, the more I think on it.

He would be overpowered considering he could withdraw 3d6 and then charge again, having a 4++ re-rollable, more attacks, the good spear etc.

 

Sanguinius is an absolute powerhouse who can and will roflstomp almost any enemy unit he charges in one go and he will kill most Primarchs in a duell when he can charge them what is not so difficult with his jump pack and -because of his special rules- ability to re-roll his charge distance. A feat he gives to all Blood Angels by the way which is huge.

 

The things which where wished* for in the last two pages are ridiculously op.

Just play against Sanguinius and you'll see.

 

*except for the gun. It's rules are weird.

Not that you'd shoot a lot with Sanguinius anyway, but a one shooter for a Primarch is just not fitting.

[rendingon1+]

I think this thread is a fine target for a mod's melta strike.

[Gorgoff]

I think this thread is a fine target for a mod's melta strike.

Is a vox nearby so he hasn't to roll for scatter?

[Charlo]

I think this thread is a fine target for a mod's melta strike.

 

Don't you mean a Mod's One-shot not-melta strike? :P

[Slips]

As long as the board rules aren't being broken I don't see why I'd have to nuke anything. That said, moving this down to AoD Rules.

[Omega-soul]

So you think losing 1 ws and I, and reroll invul on charge is enough to make all those buffs 15 points? Fearless bubble alone is worth at least 15, as is the army wide buff to deepstrike. Escalating rerolls? Permanent and buffed gun? grossly op melee weapons? 15 points lol

 

Now to the part that really annoys me, the weapons. They're very clearly split as is between mass damage and multi wound removal; you have to give up some functionality of one to get the bonuses of the other.

 

But not with those changes. You get that "vital" strength 8 with the blade, so you can ID marine characters and deathfire to chop down multi wounds; shred and rampage still give you a massive range of attacks and reliability. Then the spear, with keeping its extremely high stat line and instant death and armour bane, now has a guaranteed horde capability in melee. Wrath of angels adds about 1 more wound, so its not very special; this thing against large amounts of guys in base contact is now better than the sword. Did I say large amounts, because I really meant like 6, since even with the charge and 3 attacks from rampage you only kill 6.3 (not counting the infinite rerolls you've given him, its 8 with those). Or you could just auto hit and wound and instant death everything.

 

Make him 700 and I'd call those rules fair.    

 

No - additional 15 points is not for actual balance here.

The balance here is about remove things and add another.

 

Fearless  bubble - that is the only thing you can think of Sanguinius awe aura.

He inspire poeple in dire situations. I would say that balanced way to make him is a 6 inch bubble - but first - 6 inch mean that your squad probably alreday attached to Sanguinius so you fearless anyway - second he is too tall as model so can be seen from afar and affected by his aura

 

Weapon distinction - you right - there is a clear difference. But as I said - why other primarchs don't have to choose this before the game? There is a few primarch with one powerful weapon (or mode of weapon) against one target, and the other weapon againt hordes.

So I made both weapons to be equal on a field - so if you take a sword you still have a chances against multi-wound and vehicles, and vice versa you have a chances with a blobs using spear.

But fair enough - maybe spear should get additional debuffs - like unwieldy. But still - you all forget that in second turn of combat spear is a bad weapon for a primarch. That is a huge disadvantage itself.

Just imagine Sanguinius stuck in freaking dreadnought! If you don't kill dreadnought from charge with spear - you simply die. And that is not something rare - deradnoughts have invulns

 

Not to mention other things with invuln saves you can easily stuck in - 6 attacks s6 ap2 is not a thing for a top-3 best warrior Primarch. It's just unacceptable.

So there is an option for a special attack - that attack is useless againts 1-2 big models. That attack is most handy when you get debuffed by numerous ways - that attack is mostly for a one stable kick. It's one granted attack - means you are no lower than this.

But if we make spear a dedicated one-target/model killer - why Sanguinius have to be useless against hordes?

Why other primarchs can choose weapons in every turn that suits them currently?

Horus can even use them simultaneously.

 

And then Blade encarmine - it's good sword yes. If you need to kill hordes. And rampage is a good rule - but it's useless against one big model, or when you have a support squad of your own.

So there is a simple problem - Sanguinius is not flexible AT ALL.

 

Then - you say about 8 strengh with sword on charge and it's lethality for a t4 multi-wound marines.

Seriously? Having a spear with instant death you complain that Primarch sword on charge agaimst t4 marine is OP?

If you opt to take a horde killer - wouldn't you want your weapon could kill exactly t4 marines? 

 

Guys - why do you think that one of the best fight model in game have to compromise with his speciality?

In that form he is even glassier-canon. 2-3-4 re-rolls is more than reasonable exchange for a full re-roll saves in first turn (with hit'n'run). Not to metion that player could spent that in shooting phase and be  plain 2+/4++ in close combat.

 

Sanguinius is not a simple model and whatever you like it or not he is not a regular primarch. Everyone is special sure, but he is the most special. He more than deserves to be feared as one of the best.

But say that he is OP with proposed ruleset - is nonsence. Yes - you probably won't kill him in close combat with just marines - but that is the case - no regular marine is suppose to.

You just simply shoot him.  t6 w6 2+/4++ is a pretty weak target for a 500pt.

And you WILL get the chance to shoot him down.

 

But currently you can easily bog him down. Like when glorious son of the emperors deep strike in front of enemy lines and gets charged by freaking dreadnought. Yeah you better overwatch him with your Telesto.

 

P.S.On a second thought - I also think that hit and run is too powerful - but having wings and not being able to disengage is simply dumb - so another fix:

Sanguinius instead of Hit'n'run can fly away in ongoing reserve at the end of enemy assault phase - so he can't charge in next turn after disengage and enemy could

fire at him in next turn.

 

Have you ever played HH game before? Just curious...

 

 

 

Have you watched Leviathan charging and ripping a helpless primrach in one go? Because you know - glorious Telesto with strengh 6 and no armour re-rolls vs siege claw and severing cut.

[depthcharge12]

Kind of odd they didn’t give him a souped up version of Corvulo’s far seeing eye - like reroll 1 die of any kind of roll once per turn (to hit, to wound, to save, etc)

[Blindhamster]

The pistol at the very least shouldn't be one shot. It's just silly. It should really have the melta rules but I'm okay with it not tbh. It would make sense to be a pistol seeing as it's literally described as one and modelled as one. But maybe shouldn't be from a balance perspective.

 

People say hit and run would be OP, but

1) He can get it via angels wrath now

2) if you use the spear, you need it for it to be a good weapon after the charge.

 

I'd say giving him hit and run and replacing the reroll saves on turn he charges with something like corbulos far seeing eye would be a way to make the concern of hit and run not be so relevant.

 

But still he is what he is. I don't play much anymore anyway as I'm not too keen on the old ruleset honestly. But it's cool that other people are happy with him.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

So you think losing 1 ws and I, and reroll invul on charge is enough to make all those buffs 15 points? Fearless bubble alone is worth at least 15, as is the army wide buff to deepstrike. Escalating rerolls? Permanent and buffed gun? grossly op melee weapons? 15 points lol

 

Now to the part that really annoys me, the weapons. They're very clearly split as is between mass damage and multi wound removal; you have to give up some functionality of one to get the bonuses of the other.

 

But not with those changes. You get that "vital" strength 8 with the blade, so you can ID marine characters and deathfire to chop down multi wounds; shred and rampage still give you a massive range of attacks and reliability. Then the spear, with keeping its extremely high stat line and instant death and armour bane, now has a guaranteed horde capability in melee. Wrath of angels adds about 1 more wound, so its not very special; this thing against large amounts of guys in base contact is now better than the sword. Did I say large amounts, because I really meant like 6, since even with the charge and 3 attacks from rampage you only kill 6.3 (not counting the infinite rerolls you've given him, its 8 with those). Or you could just auto hit and wound and instant death everything.

 

Make him 700 and I'd call those rules fair.    

 

No - additional 15 points is not for actual balance here.

The balance here is about remove things and add another.

.

 

 

You literally barely removed anything and added a whole slew of buffs.

 

 

 

Fearless  bubble - that is the only thing you can think of Sanguinius awe aura.

 

He gives combat res...that's another way

 

 

Weapon distinction - you right - there is a clear difference. But as I said - why other primarchs don't have to choose this before the game? There is a few primarch with one powerful weapon (or mode of weapon) against one target, and the other weapon againt hordes.

So I made both weapons to be equal on a field - so if you take a sword you still have a chances against multi-wound and vehicles, and vice versa you have a chances with a blobs using spear.

But fair enough - maybe spear should get additional debuffs - like unwieldy. But still - you all forget that in second turn of combat spear is a bad weapon for a primarch. That is a huge disadvantage itself.

Just imagine Sanguinius stuck in freaking dreadnought! If you don't kill dreadnought from charge with spear - you simply die. And that is not something rare - deradnoughts have invulns

 

Not to mention other things with invuln saves you can easily stuck in - 6 attacks s6 ap2 is not a thing for a top-3 best warrior Primarch. It's just unacceptable.

So there is an option for a special attack - that attack is useless againts 1-2 big models. That attack is most handy when you get debuffed by numerous ways - that attack is mostly for a one stable kick. It's one granted attack - means you are no lower than this.

But if we make spear a dedicated one-target/model killer - why Sanguinius have to be useless against hordes?

Why other primarchs can choose weapons in every turn that suits them currently?

Horus can even use them simultaneously.

 

 

Well. Only 2 other primarchs have multiple melee weapons; russ and horus, and yes you can use them both in a single game. Let's look at russ. You only ever want to use the sword, except against light vehicles (av12 and so). He gets stomped by contemptor+ dreadnoughts as a result of str 8 being the best he can get. Horus does, but he's also the warmaster. Also against things like a leviathan, he'll get less attacks than sang will, and world breaker is worse than telesto.

 

The only primarchs that don't get pigeon holed other than Horus is Corax and angron; everyone else is either good against guys, or good against vehicles. They rarely get both.

 

Sang still has "a chance" against multi wound with the sword when he's pumping out 10 str 7 attacks with shred. Simultaneously, he gets 8 str 10, master crafted attacks against blobs, that can generate bonus wounds when you charge in. So what if you can't win sustained duels against primarchs with the spear; you can kill almost everything else in the game with it.

 

Going back to my statement about vehicles, why should sang get to beat everything without risk? The math isn't great at one-hitting a leviathan, but it's its the same story for every primarch. 

 

Primarch successful vehicle damage amount vs. Leviathan

Horus 1.3

Angron 2.3

Perturabo 1.1

Dorn 0.3

Ferrus 1.2

Guilliman 1.3

Mortarion 0.6

Lorgar 0.9

Vulkan 1.3

Corax 1.5

Alpharius 1.0

Russ 1.5

Magnus 0.8

Sang 1.9

All this is on the charge; Angron is unbuffed in the attack value yet, Lorgar has precog since he can choose, Magnus has nothing since randomness to get iron arm is whole different factor.

 

Sanguinius is the second best with the spear at getting damage through. He'll one shot any other dreadnought that has a worse invul save; some primarchs don't get that option like mortarion or fulgrim, they just eat contemptor fists all day. Sanguinius needs to be special though  .

 

The special attack is useless against 1 or 2 models, good thing the spear removes them normally with ID...Why would you ever go encarmine when you can one shot multi wound and vehicles, while also just beating the math unless you get a maxed out encarmine roll. You've taken one of the best primarch weapons and made it so it'll never get taken lol.

 

 

Then - you say about 8 strengh with sword on charge and it's lethality for a t4 multi-wound marines.

Seriously? Having a spear with instant death you complain that Primarch sword on charge agaimst t4 marine is OP?

If you opt to take a horde killer - wouldn't you want your weapon could kill exactly t4 marines? 

 

I complain about making them both do the same thing, because it goes against 30k design philosophy of making people make meaningful choices in list building. You don't get the best of both worlds, ever. You botching it to make the spear autotake notwithstanding. There's always a restriction or drawback or something, but you just go for a no downside route. He does currently kill marines just fine with encarmine, he simply doesn't pop legion terminators and characters at the same time. He has to work to get between his 9 and 11 attacks with shred through...

 

 

Guys - why do you think that one of the best fight model in game have to compromise with his speciality?

 

 

Oh, thats why. You think he's the best fighter, bar none. The whole nuance to the lore is that any primarch could beat any other, and that's reflected in the game. 

 

 

 

In that form he is even glassier-canon. 2-3-4 re-rolls is more than reasonable exchange for a full re-roll saves in first turn (with hit'n'run). Not to metion that player could spent that in shooting phase and be  plain 2+/4++ in close combat.

 

It's so absurd in general, that calling it more than reasonable needs a whole new word. Ridiculous, as in, it's worthy of ridicule. Here's why; you don't tank with him and then you don't need to spend them until melee.  You can reroll anything too, not just failed invuls; rolls to hit, failed armour, armour pen, etc... and you just get more and more of them every turn. 15 points 

 

A glass cannon is corax or angron. They need to kill, because they have a terrible invul and armour respectively. 2+ 4++ is great. 

 

 

And you WILL get the chance to shoot him down.

 

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How? You throw him in a blob of ASM and you need to kill 20 guys to even touch him. Sounds like bad playing to me otherwise.

 

 

 

But currently you can easily bog him down. Like when glorious son of the emperors deep strike in front of enemy lines and gets charged by freaking dreadnought. Yeah you better overwatch him with your Telesto

 

Oh, it is bad playing. Why would you ever choose to do that knowing his relative strength. Extremely bad mistakes deserve any consequences they incur. It's not the games fault a player misuses something that completely.

 

 

Have you watched Leviathan charging and ripping a helpless primrach in one go? Because you know - glorious Telesto with strengh 6 and no armour re-rolls vs siege claw and severing cut.

 

More misplaying, don't know why he needs buffs for user error