Astral Wardens (help decision making)

[Busby]

... Or "The Emperor's Raptors" ... Or "Night Hawks" --- I like that name best, but I haven't done enough research on here to see if someone else has started a chapter up with that name.  Anyway...  Here's my (Busby's) story that I almost posted in Vanguard Primaris, but decided I detracted to much from the core of that topic:

 

tl;dr:  Help me make some decisions on what to buy to expand a (purely Primaris) guerrilla warfare themed army.

 

All right Brothers and Sisters, I tried to stay away from Warhammer 40k (I've been mostly on hiatus since about 2009), but Kill Team started calling my name (I like small unit games like Infinity, Dark Age, etc) and then when this new Vanguard boxed set came out I went: OH MY GOD.  These dudes are exactly what I envisioned I wanted to do with a Raven Guard chapter!  A bunch of dudes that seem to be adept at guerrilla warfare.  Totally doing this, I guess!

I almost didn't buy into it...

But today,  ebay has an extra 15% off site wide.  I bought a Shadowspear box to split with a friend (came out to be about $126 USD).

And then a box of Rievers because they look cool (I have some Warzone Resurrection models the remind me of).

And a Redemptor Dreadnaught.

And a box of Inceptors because they remind me of astronauts and I love astronauts... with guns.

Competitively, I know the jury is out on whether or not these guys (Vanguard as a whole) will be worth using.  I know the Infiltrators seem to be over-costed for what they bring to the table.  I know a lot of people don't particularly like the Rievers (and a lot of others DO like them).  I know that a lot of people recommend picking up some Aggressors (I will!) because they can put out Ork envy-level dakka.  I don't really care about being competitive. Never have.  I've almost always gone with a theme and stuck to it.  Even though that has rarely ever won me a tournament, it has created a lot of fun stories for me over the years (both 40k themed stories and the "holy crap, do you remember that time my Lone Wolf wrecked half your Army?!" sort).

ANYWAY, rambling on...  Ignoring my splurge on extra stuff, what would you all think to be a good investment for someone who is more into the theme of hit and run tactics, striking from shadows, and psychological warfare over overwhelming firepower, staying super competitive, and so on?  As I finish painting up models, I was thinking of picking up more Infiltrators (I'm sure a box will drop soonish), maybe some more Eliminators, a squad of Hellblasters for some pain, and maybe another Librarian (I have a theme I am working on that I'll post up some other time).  I am mostly asking because at this point, I'm practically a new player to 40k and am very much new to the Raven Guard as a whole.  I'd love to receive some insights on how you utilize the ide aof guerrilla warfare for your Primaris.

Hell, I'm even down for buying another Primaris half of the Vanguards box, even though I'm sure I won't use a second LT or Captain.

 

Thanks for the help/criticisms/etc!

[seriade]

scouts and scout bikes?

[HighMarshalAmp]

Welcome back to 40k. Space Marines are overcosted, you'll never have a solid anti-tank or anti-horde firebase unless you focus on one of them and one alone, leaving you vulnerable to the other, and even then you'll have trouble getting into position and staying alive.
I have small armies for 5 different Chapters in the works anyway, so I like your attitude towards fun vs winning

With that in mind, Guerilla makes me think of mobile units trying to hit where it hurts most.
Staying purely Primaris, the question of 'shoot or choppy' doesn't even come up. The only dedicated melee units are the Power Fist Captain and the Power Weapon Sergeant, with the latter one being an option in range-focussed units only anyway.
You'll have a certain amount of firepower and need to think of a way to position it. Intercessors in Repulsors are one way, but it's hardly Guerilla style.

Personally, I'd go large on a) Inceptors and (this is supposed to be a 'b' and a ')' ) Grav-Chute units.
Inceptors are fast and can put out decent amounts of shots - or you equip them with Plasma whatchamacallits. The issue with the latter is that every Inceptor will have them and every lost model thus hurts like hell.
Any DS-able units help to really sell the hit-and-run vibe. You have to use them with precision though, 'cause Reivers, assuming they make the charge, will die and most likely not even see the next fight phase. Make sure they can take something of value down with them.
To really feel their effect, you need to invest in them. If you take Reivers, take at least 3 MSU units, 3 units of 10 if you can.

To balance the points in reserves, you need some resilient firepower as well as Troops to score objectives. While you could just plonk down 3 Redemptors to provide resilient firepower, they ain't worth a damn on an objective if there's two Cultists nearby. Hell, even if there's ONE cultist nearby!
Intercessors come to mind, and with SftS, you can move them up the board better than other Chapters could. So if you're willing to burn 3CP before Turn 1, you could just SftS 30 Intercessors to make your opponent fight for the midfield.
Same goes for Infiltrators with Concealed Positions. They can essentially SftS better and for no CP but their weapons pack less of a punch once things get heated.

But, as you might have noticed, both these options put you in the position of having the bulk models on the field unprotected, your opponent moving there and in the end, you'll just be DSing the Reivers next to your Intercessors/ Infiltrators and charging for the 1 additional attack per Reiver compared to the Troop choices you already have in position...

Frankly, as of right now, I don't see any real way of properly Guerilla fighting with only Primaris. You'd need real Melee capabilities for that and that's still missing in the line-up.
I'd try to focus on our -1 to hit at 12" or more and see if Beta Bolters doesn't make Intercessors with 30" Rapid Fire Weapons in cover (for an additional -1 to hit) a threat to be reckoned with while something else (Hellblasters, Redemptors) see to it that there aren't too many models on the midfield so objective spring becomes an option again.

Or you could pack some Repulsors full of Intercessors, have your troops get up the field unkilled that way and just try to outnumber your enemy if he's playing an elite army. That's not Guerilla style though, and it's not even particularly Raven Guard-ey. Also, true hordes will laugh and cut you down.

 

BTW, this thread talks about Primaris Troop Choices. It's getting a little heated, but you should look into it. Good points in there.

[Busby]

scouts and scout bikes?

 

Hah, if I were to do add in any non-Primaris, it would be scouts or scouts with bikes, but for now, I'm not.  Thanks!

 

 Snip

 

Thanks for the very in-depth response.  I am really in love with the Rievers, so I will likely buy even more over time (to the 30 that you mention).   Thus far, I like the idea of having deep striking units come in and doing their thing.  IE:  Rievers charging in after using Supressors to try and neutralize overwatch, or stun grenades and using Inceptors to support deleting units depending on their loadout. 

 

I am not presently digging the Repulsor, but I might invest in it eventually.   I DO like the Primaris Dread and picked one up so far.  I might grab a second one eventually and use them as a pushing element or... I haven't decided yet since I barely have experience with 8th.  I'll come back to that!

 

I... have been following that thread with interest.  I do notice a lot of heat added into the discussion, but overall, it appears to be well-meaning people trying to lend their ideas to the discussion.

[HighMarshalAmp]

 

Thanks for the very in-depth response.  I am really in love with the Rievers, so I will likely buy even more over time (to the 30 that you mention).   Thus far, I like the idea of having deep striking units come in and doing their thing.  IE:  Rievers charging in after using Supressors to try and neutralize overwatch, or stun grenades and using Inceptors to support deleting units depending on their loadout. 

 

I am not presently digging the Repulsor, but I might invest in it eventually.   I DO like the Primaris Dread and picked one up so far.  I might grab a second one eventually and use them as a pushing element or... I haven't decided yet since I barely have experience with 8th.  I'll come back to that!

 

I... have been following that thread with interest.  I do notice a lot of heat added into the discussion, but overall, it appears to be well-meaning people trying to lend their ideas to the discussion.

 

Yeah, I didn't really think takes on the Troops would be that diametrically opposed when I started the thread (tbh, I don't even think Infiltrators are vastly superior to Intercessors, I was just curious what the player base's take was on that matter  ).

 

Another member (I'll find out who it was eventually) has brought up his take on how large to go on any given unit I've promptly adopted for myself - take around 500pts of something if you want it to reliably do any work.

 

With the Dreads, I'd at least recommend to stick to my personal rule of 2: if you have one important unit, have the same one again.

 

With DSing units, getting them to make their points back is easier than with footslogging ones simply because you don't need to walk/ chauffeur them up the board. As with many Oldmarines units, you seem to need vehicles to get those from a to b, but I'm not keen on tanks myself. Might explain why my Tac Squads keep dying on their way into Rapid Fire range...

The Problem with Reivers is just that atm, they don't bring Power Weapons. You only get a load of S4 AP0, and that's if they make the charge, only to face whatever you just charged hitting back - and odds are it's gonna either hit hard or hit a lot.

And - just to point that out once more - our dedicated Primaris Melee unit can't take Power Weapons while the bloody ranged Troops can! Geez, GW, just throw us a bone once in a while!

But if you like them, that's 50% of the whole point already. That's why I'm still keen on Terminators even now that they're likely to be gone in 9th.

 

If the Suppressors really do what they're supposed to (and I can see them work), they'll be a sweet niche unit.

If the next box set provides us with some real Melee options, I'd go so far as to say Primaris can be as scary in Melee as Oldmarines.

Take that for what it's worth...

 

Now if you're facing other C:SM players, all that C:SM whining suddenly evaporates. If you really set your heart on making Reivers work against C:SM, I think you might wipe some allrounder lists without much hassle.

[Dracos]

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Night_Hawks

 

I've spent time researching the Night Hawk name. It has practically no known colors, symbol, or history.

 

 

I'll second the suggestion of 10 Intercessors for the backfield ObSec. 

 

 ... and Assassins 

[Dracos]

Reivers work best in my opinion when they act to support Inceptors. Drop them down near an objective. Plasma the backfield objective unit Reivers positioned to intercept a charge or clean up the leftovers assuming its not power armor. Inceptors can move on to asssit elsewhere while Reivers (hoping they have a Primaris Reiver or Inceptor eventually) sit on the objective.

 

Ideally this backfield grabbing task force, adds up to approximately 500 points in a 2k game. It’s my philosophy you need three solid task force working to grab objectives with the last 500 designed to support the midfield preferably with fire support long range enough they can hold their own backfield. Fact is your going to loose units and it works best if there is overlapping support from a nearby task force but I feel it’s the way Space Marines need to play to when objectives / missions.

 

Each task force needs a bogey man and preferably a ObSec holder. One of the reasons I keep preaching Reivers to get moved to Troop slots :). Hellblasters and Intercessors - Infiltrators and Aggressors - Inceptors and Reivers. Sprinkle in HQ and hopefully an Assassin as needed.

[Busby]

Man, I really appreciate all of the awesome responses.  I'm loving that most of the talk has respected my loving desire to be more hit and run / recon / whatever oriented.

 

I'm also glad a lot of people are pro-Rievers!

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

If I had the goal of doing Primaris Only, and emulating Guerilla Warfare while being Raven Guard, then here is my list: (While trying to maximize my use of Shadowspear)

 

SM Brigade (2k Points)

 

Primaris Captain in Phobos w/ +1 to Hit Warlord Trait 

Phobos Librarian

Phobos LT 

 

3x 5-Man Intercessor Squads (Sgt with Chainsword, 1x Aux Grenade Launcher)

3x 5-Man Infiltrator Squads

 

Primaris Ancient - Standard of Emperor Ascendant

Primaris Apothecary

5-Man Reiver Squad - Carbines

 

2x 3-Man Inceptor Squad - Dual Plasma

1x 3-Man Inceptor Squad - Dual Bolters

 

2x 3-Man Eliminator Squad

1x 10-Man Hellblaster

 

Your infiltrators take the midfield and clear a path for your moving castle.

Your Intercessors sit on backfield objectives

Your Captain/LT/Apothecary/Ancient form a buff-zone around your blob of 10 Hellblasters that can be SFTS and moved up the board, slowly but surely. Hitting on 2's, overcharging with zero fear of failure. Getting back up when they die, and getting to shoot for free when they fall.

 

If you weren't attached to Reivers, id probably ditch them for Aggressors, and wiggle around some stuff for room.

 

Inceptors plug holes and clear enemies off objectives.

 

Like HMA said, you are going to struggle with Anti-Tank, and this list really Isn't that much better. The idea is to ignore their tanks and kill all their units that can contest objectives, and grind the game out. Lots of 2W MSU squads make it hard for your opponent to have efficient fire.

 

Note: I intentionally didn't include Dreads/Repulsors/Armor as I feel it doesn't fit the Guerrilla theme. The thing with armor is: If you want to take it, take a decent amount of it. If you take a small amount, you're just rewarding your opponents AT elements. You need to either saturate the issue or go the full famine route, as I have.

[Exilyth]

There are currently rumors about primaris getting new units - which may fit the hit and run theme if the rumors come true.

There is also talk about whether any of the kits from Shadowspear will or will not get more options when they become available separately.

So, building & painting what you've got and waiting for the next releases would be another option.

 

If you want to stick to released units, the advice already posted in this thread is solid.

 

 With the Dreads, I'd at least recommend to stick to my personal rule of 2: if you have one important unit, have the same one again.

I second the rule of two too.

[thewarriorhunter]

I can't really help from an army composition/competitive standpoint because I'm anything but competitive.

 

From a naming/lore standpoint do what you want and rule of cool wins. If you want to run with Night Hawks go for it. If you want to change the color scheme from what has been 'officially' released then do it. If you want to give them their own lore than do it. In a galaxy with millions of planets and billions of others that are not known there's no reason you can't forge your own story with your chapter.

[Busby]

Haha, yeah. It was mostly that I couldn't decide what I wanted to name the chapter. My buddy thinks I should go with an official one, but I'm really liking Astral Wardens and Night Hawks at the moment.

[thewarriorhunter]

Personally I say name your own, then you can claim 100% originality. That's what I did with my Spectral Sicarii and in very glad I did. Presenting fresh lore to your opponent is a lot of fun, IMO.

[Brother Quixote]

I second the go with what you want if you're not bothered about named characters - Astral Wardens gives you freedom to do anything you like.

 

Night Hawks also gives you freedom to do whatever you like, while being able to say to your buddy it's an official named chapter. (It just has no heraldry or anything beyond effectively a name drop in a rulebook!)