Shadow Spear Testing

[Prot]

Has anyone had games with the new Chaos Shadow Spear units?

 

I had a chance to break it out this past weekend and there's a lot I picked up instantly.

 

The models are amazing but playing them... not so great. What are you guys finding?

 

For me personally:

 

I couldn't do damage with most of the list I took. I played against a pretty strong, but ultimately not cut throat, Dark Eldar army. I couldn't keep up to it. Hitting it with Venom Crawlers felt impossible.

 

I would replace venom crawlers with Defilers. I really found their assault weapons to be inconsequential, even with the assistance of the MoP.

 

MoP's are good.... very fun, but standard Sorcs are better in an overall list. It's simply just very hard to beat the like of Warp Time and/or Death Hex, etc.

 

I took Abaddon, and he really didn't fit in with this army. Plus without the proper support, like any terminator he's basically getting Kited by a zillion poison weapons. That's my bad.. .he's not going to work  in this instance, but he did keep my Cultists together which was huge.

 

The Greater Possessed were loads of fun. Not super great, but loads of fun. Regular Possessed still definitely need something. I couldn't make a significant impact with them as usual, and without shooting attacks, they live for one reason, and they should be really good at it. I just felt like trying to be thematic so I broke them out. Greater Possessed are a niche unit. If I got super hot with the dice I could take out Chaff, but inevitably both my Greater Possessed got bounced hard by Dark Eldar characters.

 

I hate to say it, but the star of the show for me was clearly the Oblits, and cultists. Without Cultists I have real estate issues, and they don't run. Without Oblits I couldn't really do damage. (The minus to hit everywhere put all Daemon Engines in a really bad position.)

 

I leaned very heavy on one squad of Oblits and the MoP rerolls. BUT I was being circled by a far faster army with over 11 disintegraters/lance type weapons and 2 flyers.

 

By turn 3 I had: Wounded Abaddon. One squad of Cultists, and a wounded Venom crawler. So although I won the game, I wanted to end the pain and conceded. My opponent was utterly shocked because I was winning but you know that feeling when you're winning, but it doesn't feel like it? lol 

 

So I had some thoughts on making some changes, but most of it is going back to a previous list... cutting back on the new stuff, but it was fun to test it out.

 

What have you guys experienced with the new units?

[Panzer]

Well I really didn't expect the stuff in the box to suddenly rock. It's a range refresh in the first place and a slight rules update only second ... and the most important unit to get an update got completely ignored again. 

[Sception]

The new chaos stuff feels very strong... if you're playing it against the loyalist stuff from the same box, which just doesnt have the tools to take down the oblits & venom crawler, especially with the MoP supporting.

 

In the wider game, though, yeah. The MoP isnt better than a regular sorc, especially one with a jump pack. The greater possessed aren't terrible, but melee only infantry heroes arent really going to blow anyone's mind. The basic chaos marines are, well, basic chaos marines. The crawler, like other darmon engines, is let down by poor accuracy. The oblits are ok, being basically slightly less points efficient versions of the existing oblit unit. Still playable, but yeah, not better.

 

Nothing in this box is a signigicant upgrade on stuff we already had. In fact, the best units in the box, the oblits and MoP, are in fact slightly worse versions of units we already had. Good units we already had, so being only slightly worse they still should be playable, but still, nothing that's going to elevate the faction as a whole.

 

Granted, things might change with other upcoming releases and rules changes. For instance, the lord discordant might significantly improve the playability of venomcrawlers. Also, AoS recently went to free summoning without breaking the game - if 40k follows suit then the MoP might suddenly go from 'sorcerer with less good buffs that only work on worse units' to 'faction defining powerhouse'. And we've seen at least one new heavy weapon for havocs, if there are other new special & heavy weapon options, and if badic marines get access to them, that could concievably be enough to redefine their use on the tabletop. Probably not, and even if it were the specific monopose csms with their plasmagun and autocannon loadout in shadowspear wouldn't see the benefit, but still.

 

Overall, I don't expect any of the new releases to move the needle for csms as a faction. The problems with out army - really basic stuff like the core marine stat line or the mechanical description of power armor, are baked into the bedrock of 8e.

 

But that said, I wouldnt completely rule out the possibility of something unexpected managing to shake us out of out current rut, at least not until we get a look at the full picture.

[Excessus]

The lord discordant would probably have helped a lot with those venomcrawlers, but obviously he isn't released yet.

[Prot]

The lord discordant would probably have helped a lot with those venomcrawlers, but obviously he isn't released yet.

 

You know I thought the same way, but you know what terrifies me about that angle? Grey Knights. They will have an absolute field day with it. I think people are (generally) a little too hard on GK and they'll get redone shortly now that we see Chaos is actually getting a codex.

 

I never expected the new units to be super amazing on release... I mean we're not "Custodes" right? But still you want to sell models on more than aesthetics. The new Discordant dude looks like a natural fit, however the dual Defiler list I used to roll with my Thousand Sons up until very recently would also do quite well with that type of buffing HQ.

 

The Shadowspear stuff... on both sides, is of course meant to be a good match up, but obviously that's not a match up I'll see very often so I wanted to take the stuff out of a fishbowl and play some good players with it, using what's currently floating in my meta.

 

Next up I'll be trying a version of the army against GSC or Tau.

[angrom]

As a greyknight player I have to say that I have very little hope that GK will get any love this edition.

I don't even think they will be mentioned or be of any part in the next campaign book.

Literally any army have better tools and more potential to kill daemons more efficiently than greyknights now.

What I see coming though is a big hype buildup for their next big re-release of the sister of battle.

I give my 2 cents that in the next campaign the battle tide will be influenced by the sudden surge of the sisters in the battle thanks to the magic of BS narration.

That and probably a boxset or two with shiny new sister models.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Hmm that’s definitely disappointing to say the least, though I suppose a lot of the characters are bandanging units that really need to be sutured.

 

The dark eldar were definitely a bad matchup considering just how slow everything is.

 

I suppose that the units in the box work better as small additions to a normal CSM army rather than trying to go full daemonkin.

 

I’m curios what was your full list like?

 

I’m confident that they will be getting buffed come next chapter approved if the forge bane units were anything to go by.

 

Did you feel that the obliterates did better than they normally would with the new update?

[Doom Herald]

I know it costs a command point, but the Familiar strategem should work to regain a Dark Hereticus power. Personally, I'm going to try it with my MoP for warp time & possibly the diabolic strength (or whatever it's called), take the Intoxicating Elixir, and the +1 Str and re-roll force weapon damage warlord trait and try using him as a beat-stick. I don't know how well it will go, but it should be fun. Maybe use him as Emperors children so he attacks first and I can use the troops as Noise Marines. Cacophony on them with the bolters beta rules or maybe oblits.

 

Alternatively I was wondering how massed venom crawlers in a firing line with Greater Possessed, Poxbringers, and MoP might work with say a Nurgle Alpha Legion army. Their ranged weapons are based on strength, so the +1 from GP, +1 from Poxbringer, maybe use the Familiar strategem to get prescience on MoP. Each venom crawler auto-heals, MoP can heal more, Poxbringers have a power that heals Nurgle Daemons. Keep oblits around for support and a Gnarlmaw or 2 to assist covering your infantry.

[Furnace Lord]

I feel incredibly foolish asking this...can greater possessed ride in transports? I don't see anything saying they can't but I'm pretry green on the rules right now.

[Doom Herald]

If nothing says they can't, then they can.

[Wyzariel]

I know it costs a command point, but the Familiar strategem should work to regain a Dark Hereticus power. Personally, I'm going to try it with my MoP for warp time & possibly the diabolic strength (or whatever it's called), take the Intoxicating Elixir, and the +1 Str and re-roll force weapon damage warlord trait and try using him as a beat-stick. I don't know how well it will go, but it should be fun. Maybe use him as Emperors children so he attacks first and I can use the troops as Noise Marines. Cacophony on them with the bolters beta rules or maybe oblits.

 

Alternatively I was wondering how massed venom crawlers in a firing line with Greater Possessed, Poxbringers, and MoP might work with say a Nurgle Alpha Legion army. Their ranged weapons are based on strength, so the +1 from GP, +1 from Poxbringer, maybe use the Familiar strategem to get prescience on MoP. Each venom crawler auto-heals, MoP can heal more, Poxbringers have a power that heals Nurgle Daemons. Keep oblits around for support and a Gnarlmaw or 2 to assist covering your infantry.

Unfortunately, MoP cannot be <Emperor's Children>. Unless there's been an update that I'm not aware of...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

...why not? It's a valid option from C:CSM. Only Death Guard and Thousand Sons can't take them because they have different codices.

[Panzer]

^this

If he can not there must be a passage in the new rules that explicitly exclude the Emperor's Children.

[Wyzariel]

...why not? It's a valid option from C:CSM. Only Death Guard and Thousand Sons can't take them because they have different codices.

Hmmm.... Then why did they exclude Emperor's Children from Shadowspear's minidex? Is this one of those weird GW inconsistencies thingamajig?

 

Also, MoP is technically not inside C:CSM yet right? What if... What if C:CSM 2.0 won't have EC and WE??? Does this mean imminent release???

 

Okay I need to cut down on the overexcitement but it does seems weird to deliberately not include EC and WE in Shadowspear, only to allow usage a couple weeks later. I'm also aware that Warhammer Community pretty much confirms the presence of WE and EC in C:CSM 2.0.

 

Also I'm genuinely inquiring. Not being argumentative or rhetorical with this. Because I'm under the impression that Shadowspear did not include EC and WE...

[Panzer]

 

...why not? It's a valid option from C:CSM. Only Death Guard and Thousand Sons can't take them because they have different codices.

Hmmm.... Then why did they exclude Emperor's Children from Shadowspear's minidex? Is this one of those weird GW inconsistencies thingamajig?

 

Also, MoP is technically not inside C:CSM yet right? What if... What if C:CSM 2.0 won't have EC and WE??? Does this mean imminent release???

 

They didn't though?

 

Also EC and WE are in the coming C:CSM. We already know that since they are listed in the legion index on WarCom.

[Wyzariel]

 

 

...why not? It's a valid option from C:CSM. Only Death Guard and Thousand Sons can't take them because they have different codices.

Hmmm.... Then why did they exclude Emperor's Children from Shadowspear's minidex? Is this one of those weird GW inconsistencies thingamajig?

 

Also, MoP is technically not inside C:CSM yet right? What if... What if C:CSM 2.0 won't have EC and WE??? Does this mean imminent release???

 

Okay I need to cut down on the overexcitement but it does seems weird to deliberately not include EC and WE in Shadowspear, only to allow usage a couple weeks later. I'm also aware that Warhammer Community pretty much confirms the presence of WE and EC in C:CSM 2.0.

 

Also I'm genuinely inquiring. Not being argumentative or rhetorical with this. Because I'm under the impression that Shadowspear did not include EC and WE...

They didn't though?

 

Also EC and WE are in the coming C:CSM. We already know that since they are listed in the legion index on WarCom.

Oh they didn't? My bad. I was pretty sure WE and EC weren't represented. I don't have the minidex with me at the moment. For that I apologize.

 

But I'm kinda salty now as a TS player =( would really want Malefic discipline for my sorcs.

[Guzzlrr]

I think there are some obvious sign Postings that both factions have incoming codexes but that said obviously I can't Imagine that being anytime soon, as for the time being both are usable as they are in the current codex

[Wyzariel]

Really sorry for being misinformed guys.

[Guzzlrr]

Really sorry for being misinformed guys.

I wouldn't worry about it dude there is a lot of speculation on the subject fueled by the lack of art & being excluded from that diagram is fueling a lot of that.

 

 

 

As for the new stuff I'm not sure the Venomcrawler is going to be much use unless it's used as a chaperone for the Lord Discordant to get into combat otherwise the other demon engines are probably a better choice but that's based on assumptions about the Lord Discordant.

 

Right now I'm hoping he'll be under 9 wounds and decently priced I'll use him & the MOP to prop up a demon engine firebase using the LORDs buff & MOP casting Incurion & Cursed Earth

 

Fire base consisting of 2 forgefiends with Hades Autocannons & Plasma maw & a lascannon toting Defiler. 3s to hit rerolls to hits & wound & 4+ inv save. I can't wait to try that out with that building might have a 3+ inv save lol

[40kChrista]

I'll be using the new Oblits and Greater Possessed this weekend and I'm looking forward to it.  I want to try and get a MoP in there somewhere but I'm not sure since he's so much slower.

 

It's a 1750 list with a block of 20 Possessed; a couple of Heralds, and I'm probably going to switch out the Exalted Champ and Sorcerer for 2 Jump Sorcerers. Everything is moving and advancing and able to charge as soon as possible.  Not optimal I know, but it's fun for me.

 

Speaking of fun times... Greater Possessed with MoS; start with his aura +1S; make him the Warlord and then give him Exalted Champ trait +1A; Intoxicating Elixer Relic +1S & A; get a Herald next to him +1S, and finally hit him with Diabolical Strength +2S & +1A.

 

7 S7; 7 S8 ((next to the Herald)); or 8 S9((with Diabolic Strength, S10 if you're next to the Herald too!)) Attacks hitting on 2s.

 

I think the only things a Lord has over a Greater Possessed is the baked in reroll 1s aura, which IS nice, and a 4++... which a Greater Possessed can get anyway  with good positioning next to a MoP.

[Prot]

I'm a bit surprised no one else has been able to update us on games with the new units... just a lot of 'math' and 'theory'.

 

I've had a few more games, and had to pair down some of the new units to add some validity to the list. The MoP's certainly are fun. (I wouldn't worry about jump packs, just advance them when necessary).

 

The Oblits have turned out to carry the army for me. HQ wise the good ol' Daemon Prince is still my top pick. The synergies of psychic powers and Daemon units is something I'm finding a bit awkward. It forces you, or at least encourages a bubble. This is how loyalists are commonly played, and it's not something I want to really stick to. Many of the MoP powers have you playing a very aura-hammer feeling army. It simply works better, but I don't like it for Chaos.

 

Chaos has the 'disadvantage' of using close combat where another army might want to be shooting you from across the board, and aura hammer works fine for that. I've been trying to work on a strategy that has me largely 'hiding' and trying to dominate the mid board with Chaos-aura-hammer. The new threats to characters are real though, and I think the new character on a vehicle is almost a better option no matter the wounds because he'll be T7, and less prone to sniper stuff.

 

One of my last games was GSC. I didn't feel nearly as futile as the Dark Eldar game. I'm still not playing my 'typical' Black Legion in order to do more playtesting with these units. The close combat is where I got dominated in this game. It's been a few games in a row where I lose the Greater Possessed without making a real dent in anything with them.

 

The chaff is still super important. All of these units still feel a touch expensive so the Cultists (man I hope they don't get nerfed in the new rules) are almost mandatory. - they're needed to buffer Greater Possessed, and Oblits, and MoP's.

 

I pushed hard to the middle, tried to own the real estate, and pushed outward to defend against Cult Ambush/deep strike with a 'star' pattern of cultists. It somewhat worked but abberant units were absolutely brutal. I lost greater possessed, and a Venom very early. It was the Oblits that saved the show. The firepower is -excellent- against elite units.

 

Abaddon is just not fitting in these lists. He feels too expensive and right now since I'm using MoP's, his re-roll aura is less necessary. However the number one thing he's doing for me is keeping Cultists from running.

 

I still think my old Black Legion lists are inherently better, and more flexible, but these new units are a lot of fun. I dropped normal possessed, and rhino's (something I hate doing) and added 2 more Oblits bringing me to 5 Oblits.

 

I have a few more games scheduled leading into the weekend. Again my lists are just hodge podge stuff I'd never recommend except for testing. But if I were being blunt, I'd drop all the new stuff except the MoP, add in my Kytan and go back to my old lists. (wish I could take old Oblits too). For now though it's a very different feel. I do think the MoP's would work better with Defilers running Scourges right now.

 

I used to try shooty Termies with Abe, but no points for that kind of inefficiency right now. I'm REALLY hoping the Termies get a new weapon type in their updated box because I'd still prefer running Bringers of Despair with Abaddon. :)

[BrainFireBob]

The preview pic looks like a plasma blaster to me, holding out hope for that.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I'm a bit surprised no one else has been able to update us on games with the new units... just a lot of 'math' and 'theory'.

 

Well, given many of us don't have the models yet and even if we do, may not have assembled or painted them, I wouldn't be that surprised (nor everyone likes to proxy, as many - like me - don't use unpainted units).  Plus, I suspect most don't get in as many games as you do - my last game was in 2018.

 

That said, thank you very much for your accounts on how the new units play - they will definitely help me out in knowing how they ought to be used on the table once I receive mine and paint and assemble them.

[Silverson]

Bought mine, built them that morning and gave them to someone to paint, I won’t get to play with them for 2-3 weeks. But once I get them I’ll be using them a lot to try and make new shinies work.

 

A lot will have to do with the lord discordant tho I fell

[Brother Talarian]

Brought a tiny contingent to a 3v3 last night. They were great fun and provided some awesome synergy!

 

I really enjoy the venomcrawler, alongside the MoP and GP he’s an incredible little beast. He soaked up loads of fire and returned some decent fire as well.

 

All in all I’m rather happy. My local meta isn’t hyper competitive so I imagine that helps.