Close Combat marine and Hellbrutes question

[Furnace Lord]

Do you find standard marines or Hellbrutes kitted for close combat effective? Any particular loadout you like or squad sizes for the marines, and do you think the Khorne fight again stratagem is worth the points on such units? I ask because I'm new to this edition and most marine and Hellbrutes I see in lists are geared for shooting.

 

Also I'm a Black Legion player, so no World Eaters shenanigans in my case.

[Panzer]

Standard Marines a definite no(!) and Helbrutes only if they manage to fly under the radar because the opponent focusses on other units first.

 

Better use the fight again Stratagem on Possessed or Chosen ... or even better actual Berzerkers. There you get actual value from it.

You see most Marines geared for shooting because 40k is a very shooting heavy game and to be able to survive in such a world as a melee unit you have to be a really really awesome melee unit. Either be tough as nails (Marines are not), be many (Marines are not), be able to do a sick amount of damage with only few bodies remaining (Berzerkers can do that but usually it's the HQs who do it) or be able to do it before your opponent can deal with it (reliable charges out of deep strike like Blood Angels Jump Pack infantry can do via Stratagem for example).

[Sception]

No. The game's very shooty oriented, a melee unit needs to be something special to make a place for itself. Something more specialized than just a generalist platform that happens to take some melee weapons. Berserkers, for instance, are good enough to be worthwhile as a dedicated melee unit. Even then delivery can be a bother, but at least if you do manage to tag an enemy unit in close combat they can get some work done. Greater possessed look decent as a character version of a melee beatstick, being fast and points efficient.

 

Basic chaos marines and brutes are slow and even if you do tag something, they don't hit very hard for the points. In particular, they don't hit appreciably harder in melee than they could have at range, and, shooting being better in this game in general... yeah.

 

Now, it can be worth throwing some melee upgrades into a shooty unit. Like, if you have some points spate, there are worse things you could do with them than throwing a couple power swords onto your bolter squad champions. But that's afterthought stuff, not what you build the squad for to begin with. Not if you can help it.

[Excessus]

I'm gonna build a melee CSM unit from the Shadowspear boxes...though I'm under absolutely no illusions they will be used in other than beer & pretzel games...

 

I find brutes do well against elite units, due to their low attacks and high damage, but I always go for one melee weapon and one ranged because they won't reach the enemy in one turn.

 

...though I guess dual fist brutes with dual heavy flamers could do some descent damage when advancing...

[Furnace Lord]

Thank you, everyone. Shadowspear is honestly the reason I wondered in the first place. I haven't gotten my hands on a box yet but I have no idea how hard it would be to throw bolters on the close combat marines in there.

[Sception]

As a note, I do use melee csms and chosen for narrative & aesthetic reasons, and they can be ok in a non-competitive beer & pretzels game, especially one played against pure loyalist marine opponents, which suffer from many of the same underlying issues as pure csm armies. Heck, they suffer more from the problems with basic marines as they lack access to our non-marine units like cultists and daemon princes.

 

For a casual (and infrequent) player like myself, my army looking the way I want it to counts for more than being competitively effective. That's an absolutely fair position to take. But that said, against even slightly more competitive opponents, things go pretty noticeably sideways pretty fast.

[Excessus]

I brought a beer & pretzel list to a friend's house and he had been playing with some "more competetive" guys so it was a very competetive list...I was cleaned off the board at turn two...

 

 

...but as we said, more time for beer & pretzels... :D

[Panzer]

I'm gonna build a melee CSM unit from the Shadowspear boxes...though I'm under absolutely no illusions they will be used in other than beer & pretzel games...

 

I find brutes do well against elite units, due to their low attacks and high damage, but I always go for one melee weapon and one ranged because they won't reach the enemy in one turn.

 

...though I guess dual fist brutes with dual heavy flamers could do some descent damage when advancing...

 

Heavy Flamers aren't assault unfortunately so no advancing&shooting. Though when you are in range to shoot with them you also are in range to charge so you wouldn't have advanced that turn anyway. :P

[Excessus]

 

I'm gonna build a melee CSM unit from the Shadowspear boxes...though I'm under absolutely no illusions they will be used in other than beer & pretzel games...

 

I find brutes do well against elite units, due to their low attacks and high damage, but I always go for one melee weapon and one ranged because they won't reach the enemy in one turn.

 

...though I guess dual fist brutes with dual heavy flamers could do some descent damage when advancing...

 

Heavy Flamers aren't assault unfortunately so no advancing&shooting. Though when you are in range to shoot with them you also are in range to charge so you wouldn't have advanced that turn anyway.

 

 

Wow, I never even saw that! I've been running around in 8th ed thinking it's an assault weapon and nobody has corrected me...because it was an assault weapon in 7th and is one in HH...

[CCE1981]

Even with the bike shenanigans I am looking to build the melee aspect is more to force my opponent to loose shooting, penalize shooting (ultramarines), or force the expenditure of resources to shoot. Sling shotting a bunch of bikers with warptime tryn 1, and shooting 5x combi-bolters and 3x plasmaguns twice needs to be delt with and saves a ton of other units from getting shot.

[Danny Cyanide]

I think I'm going to stick Forge World Berserker heads on the CCW dudes from Shadowspear and call them Berserkers.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

[...] Greater possessed look decent as a character version of a melee beatstick, being fast and points efficient.

 

Basic chaos marines and brutes are slow and even if you do tag something, they don't hit very hard for the points. In particular, they don't hit appreciably harder in melee than they could have at range, and, shooting being better in this game in general... yeah.  [...]

 

Hell brutes are faster than greater possessed (Move of 8 v 7), so preferring GPs over HBs shouldn't be due to speed.

 

In terms of hitting power, though, I agree with you - hell brutes can generally do more in shooting than assault.  The one exception that comes to mind is against models with 3 wounds - the only time my hell brute excelled was when I got it into a squad of necron scarabs - if only I could do the same with my friend's necron destroyers.

 

Its worth noting that you can get a hell brute a whopping 11 attacks if you give it 2 scourges - that said, the trick is only likely to work once against any given opponent and from then on will likely be shot of the table without ever making it into melee again.  Given that, I'm not convinced a hell brute equipped this way is worth it - likely a shooty version gives better value.

[Tallarn Commander]

As others have noted, for casual play cc-oriented Helbrutes and Mark of Khorne CSM squads are fine.

 

Last year I sometimes a ran a dual flamer 10-man CSM Squad in a Rhino alongside a Zerker squad in a Rhino. It never performed as well as the Zerkers of course. But it was a decent support unit, especially when buffed by auras, VotLW, and/or Prescience

 

Also, in my games, my CC Brutes often make it into melee on Turn 2 because my opponent is (often successfully) busy blowing my Defiler, Maulerfiend, and Blood Slaughterer(s) off the table. Sigh. As everyone said this is certainly a shooty edition.

[Maschinenpriester]

I always bring 2-3 (sonic) hellbrutes one of them is a pure cc one with doom Siren and combi bolters. He rarely makes his points back, but distracts so much fire from my shooty brutes, After i warptimed him into cc. But ich have to mention that we dont play super cutthroat competitive and with lots of terrain.

[Doom Herald]

This hasn't been a great edition for troop CSMs. Mine all get converted into something else. The older CSMs with chainswords and pistols I tend to throw jump packs on or use as Khorne Berzerkers. The ones with bolters I use as Noise Marines with bolters for Music of The Apocolypse. Point-value wise, it's pretty much always a better option to run your Chaos Marine models as something else.

[Ketzer]

I am currently thinking about what to do with those melee CSM too. Putting Berserker heads on them is only one part of the solution for me, as I don't run my Berserkers with chainwords and pistols but with axes and swords.

The only way I actually use CCW Space Marines is as some kind of counterstrike unit with a single heavy weapon to provide some firesupport. When there are deepstrikers in my backline a champ with a powerfist and 3 or 4 CCW Marines could hurt them (a little) - but then again, I am playing World Eaters as a main force.

So please keep that in mind, when I tell you, that I actually like hellbrutes with 2 fists. They are either a nice distraction - or a much needed anti vehicle brawler. As a fireplatform it's kind of medicore. On the up-side it doesn't have degrading stats. The heavy bolter is a cost effective choice - as is the laser. but the rest?

I'd take a Contempor if I want a walker as a firesupport unit (or even a Deredeo of a Leviathan)

I once saw a Alpha Legion Hellbrute with Laser and Missiles that was a pain to remove on range. the -1 to hit is really a good buff.

[Midnight Brotherhood]

Maybe I'm going against the tide but I pretty much always use a 10 man squad of chosen (or 9 man with an exalted champion) in a Rhino, tooled up with chainswords, power weapons and combi bolters or plasma if there is enough points. 1pt more than a standard CSM and you get +1 attack, +1 leadership, the ability to carry a chainsword AND bolter and also access to tons of wargear. It's a no brainer. It's not top tier competitive but for games with friends or at the shop they pack a hell of a punch. Especially with the beta bolter rule they are really flexible and like what, 10pts more over a CSM squad as a base cost?

[Excessus]

problem is, chosen aren't troops... :(

[Panzer]

This hasn't been a great edition for troop CSMs. Mine all get converted into something else. The older CSMs with chainswords and pistols I tend to throw jump packs on or use as Khorne Berzerkers. The ones with bolters I use as Noise Marines with bolters for Music of The Apocolypse. Point-value wise, it's pretty much always a better option to run your Chaos Marine models as something else.

 

Noise Marines with regular Bolters is probably one of the few things that's actually worse than basic Chaos Marines. You pay more points for a veteran statline and a special rule that's not really worth considering on Bolter but have the exact same ranged damage output per model. If you take Noise Marines, go for their special gear options. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

With the beta bolter rule, I'm not sure if that is still correct.

 

Basically, in taking a sonic blaster over a bolter, is 6 points per model that,  when stationary at more than 12 inches, or when within 12", only gives you + 1 shot per model.  You do also get ignores cover being able to advance and shoot, but I'm not sure that package is worth 6 points.

 

Now, if you intend to move your squad around a lot and shoot primarily at targets 12-24" away, the sonic blaster is likely worth the points (giving you 3 vs. 1 shot per model)... but otherwise its a close call that I'm not sure favours the blaster.

[Panzer]

With the beta bolter rule, I'm not sure if that is still correct.

 

Basically, in taking a sonic blaster over a bolter, is 6 points per model that,  when stationary at more than 12 inches, or when within 12", only gives you + 1 shot per model.  You do also get ignores cover being able to advance and shoot, but I'm not sure that package is worth 6 points.

 

Now, if you intend to move your squad around a lot and shoot primarily at targets 12-24" away, the sonic blaster is likely worth the points (giving you 3 vs. 1 shot per model)... but otherwise its a close call that I'm not sure favours the blaster.

Bolter are only comparable if you stay stationary, yeah. If you move, the Sonic Blaster is still better, plus they ignore cover which might become more important with things like the Primaris Eliminators around.

Anyway even with the Bolter Discipline beta rule a Noise Marine with a Bolter is still worse value than a regular Chaos Marine with a Bolter, which was the main part of my post. ^^

[Excessus]

...and neither bolters or sonic weapons are for close combat, which was the point of the whole thread...  ;)

 

Back to topic, guys.

[Doom Herald]

Even still, in close combat you can give noise marines a chainsword and pistol. They are 2 points more, but come with an extra attack over Chaos Marines. On top of this, they have Music of the Apocolypse which will grant them an extra pistol shot each in cc when they die, possibly 2 per if Death to the False Emperor triggers on the pistol shot, which you can improve the odds of with an Icon and prescience.

 

This means basicly at 2 points more per model, you get an extra attack on each model and 1-2 pistol shots on death.

 

While this is slightly better for a slight point increase, against imperium armies more base attacks has the potential to grow even greater with DttFE. In a 10 man squad, Chaos Marines are looking at a probable 28 attacks with Slaanesh icon after DttFE [9×2+3=21], [21×1.33=28]. In the same size squad, [9×3+4=31], [31×1.33=41], Chainsword Noise Marines are looking at a probable 41.

[Furnace Lord]

Thank you for the input. Really I just wanted to know if the close combat variants of those particular units were any good, especially the marines because they're a troops choice. Digging around some old boxes today I did find some ancient bits from a Khorne Berzerker kit (which is to say the current one). I might have a look and see if I can use them for conversion opportunities, depending on how ambitious I want to get :P

[Doom Herald]

Long story short, in my opinion troop Chaos Marines are not competitive as melee units. Helbrutes can work if you use them right.

 

Slight tangent, but if you are looking for ways to fill troop slots, the Blackstone Fortress datasheets let you use a 2 man Black Legionaire squad as a troop choice. Not set up for melee, but a cheap way to add a troop unit.