Shadowspear and the BA

[Morticon]

So, with the fact that the BA will merrily be able to use all the new goodies, the question of "how" and "to what end" is next. 

For those who have been following the new boxed set doesnt only offer some cool new models (their overall viability being a question for another time!), more interestingly to me, is the fact that there are new WL Traits and Psychic Powers, the former of which have such great options that they may even compete with our two "go-to" standards "Artisan of War" and "Soulwarden".

 

With regards to the powers, 

 

A lot of people are talking up Shrouding.  Personally, (though perhaps prematurely?) I think this is overhyped and will see limited value.  You can only target a phobos unit with it, (essentially giving the targeted friendly unit the "character-style" shooting protection) which means that the only units you could use it on are likely to be up close and personal anyway -unless you want to target 3 "meh-level" snipers. 

Temporal corridor is another one that initially looks great, but when you consider all the limitations, you realise its near useless.   

Mind raid is possibly the only power on that list that I have any real interest in, sadly. 

 

But, it's the WL Traits and how they synergize with BA that look exciting. 

 

Most interestingly for me is "Princeps of Deceit" - essentially redeploy 3 infantry units (not just phobos).  The wording is such that it allows deployment as per the deployment rules in each mission, which would seem to allow taking models from the board, into reserve, or from your back line into infiltrated positions or vice-versa, taking units from infiltrated positions into the backline (say for example if the enemy seizes). 

The options for this are VERY good. 

Ironically, this means that despite them pushing (overcosted) Primaris Infiltrators, it actually makes our scouts very strong.

 

Likewise, it gives some solid functionality to the DC, or Visions characters. 

 

"Master of the Vanguard" is another great one, with the "GSC Clamavus-style" rule giving all units within 6" a +1 to move, advance and charge rolls. 

This means that for BA deepstriking, we only need 8". Really handy.  It also applies to ALL units.  

 

"Target Priority" also deserves an honourable mention, which is not bad.  Basically, if your WL doesnt fire, you give +1 to hit to any single friendly unit within 3", when targeting one enemy unit in LOS of the WL.

Nice little buff for shooting.  



I'm not overwhelmed with this release, and sadly I think GW is still suffering from making "fun/cool" rules for SM without realising their overall tactical relevance and usefulness. Again, I may be viewing if from too competitive a lens. 


But, nevertheless, the Princeps looks GREAT.  If Rievers or the new Infiltrators are your bag, you're in for a treat. And if you're more competitive, the Scout rush seems to be a viable and powerful tactic now. 

[t-dog1996]

Whoa that Master of the Vanguard WL Trait... I'm now having visions of dropping down an Angel's Wing Chaplain with some Death Company aided by Descent of Angels... I am happy about this. I also use Scouts a lot so that Princeps of Deceit sounds awesome. I'm not sure which one I'd prefer to use as they both sound great but given what I had to put up with playing Blood Angels in the years following 5th edition (I want my S6 T6 Mephiston back!) these are nice problems to have.

[Morticon]

edit:  As a side note, wouldn't it be so much better if the "Shrouding" power worked in reverse?

 

So, the enemy couldn't target our units unless they were closer to the target than the models with the power cast on them.

 

As it stands, Shrouding is great in concept, but in gameplay is so limited.  Maybe it will see play with good placing and /or multiple infiltrating units

[t-dog1996]

edit:  As a side note, wouldn't it be so much better if the "Shrouding" power worked in reverse?

 

So, the enemy couldn't target our units unless they were closer to the target than the models with the power cast on them.

 

As it stands, Shrouding is great in concept, but in gameplay is so limited.  Maybe it will see play with good placing and /or multiple infiltrating units

 

I mean, that would be great, but also horribly broken. It would kill gunline armies surely? Right now the main limitation on the power seems to be that you can only target Phobos units with it. I get why GW have done it, they want people to use the new minis, but even so it badly limits its utility.

[Morticon]

For sure. 

 

Looking for uses, I could see use for it on a squad of Rievers, with maybe another squad of Rievers taking point, and being the unit you must kill before the other squad is targeted.  But, again, to what end? It's not as if them getting in is going to break the enemy line in any massive regard.

 

But, beyond that, I cant see any real practical uses.  

Anyone else? 

[Bonzi]

Master of the Vanguard is certainly interesting. Put it on my Smash Captain who starts on the field anyway. Position him so turn 2 assault terminators DS in and have a better chance at making charges. With terminators being cheaper I've been looking at ways to bring them into my lists again.

[Morticon]

Master of the Vanguard is certainly interesting. Put it on my Smash Captain who starts on the field anyway. Position him so turn 2 assault terminators DS in and have a better chance at making charges. With terminators being cheaper I've been looking at ways to bring them into my lists again.

 

 

Sadly, I believe these traits are for "phobos" characters only.  So, the primaris Phobos lieut, captain or libby, only :/  

[Panzer]

For the Psychic powers I'd probably always go for 4-6.

Making a unit hit worse, half movement or gaining CPs is always great in any game and that you can snipe characters with those Mortal Wounds is just cherry on the top.

• Shrouding is of very limited use as you already mentioned. At best cast on a unit of Eliminators sitting on an objective or something but they already have Sv2+ in cover and can shoot without LoS so hiding them shouldn't be much of a problem. It's pretty much useless on Reivers and Infiltrators except for maybe late game when you need a unit of 1-2 models survive on an objective or something but since you have to pick psychic powers before the game you aren't as flexible as you'd be with a Stratagem so I wouldn't bank on using it that way.
• Scryer's Gaze is just not great. Phobos units don't have any noteable ranged weapons except for Eliminators and those already hit well enough anyway. Maybe if we see an increased amount of units who can benefit more from cover or in Cities of Death matches.
• Temporal Corridor is just weird. It boosts a Phobos units mobility a lot but they can't really do anything that turn. Neat for objective grabbing I guess but depends a lot on the mission and how crowded the board is since Phobos units don't have fly to jump over enemy units and such. I guess at least Reivers can still shoot afterwards.

 

That being said I'd pick that psychic discipline only for a second Librarian in the first place. Wings of Blood on Mephiston or a Librarian Dread, Shield of Baal on vehicles (or even just regular Marines against Plasma) and Unleash Rage is just too good.

 

 

The Warlord Traits are more interesting. As long as we don't know whether non-Vanguard characters can take them I'm just going to assume they can't.

• Shoot and Fade is the classic JSJ T'au used to do all the time. With the Vanguard Captains sniper Bolter it's okay I guess. He can hide out of LoS, jump out, shoot a character and jump back into security (where hopefully some Eliminators are waiting to benefit from his re-roll aura). Having to advance after shooting doesn't matter as he already shot at that time and he has no melee weapon that would make him actually want to charge something.
• Princeps of Deceit is simply awesome. An easy deny the flank button. Marines learned a lot from the Genestealer Cult in the short time since they got released. :P
• Master of Vanguard is only really interesting for Reivers I'd say. Too bad the Captain we got is an infiltrator and the Lieutenant we got is actually the one that can drop together with them. This one suffers from bad HQ options I fear. That being said, an 8" charge out of reserves is still not likely to succeed so I'd probably take one of the other traits anyway.
• Stealth Adept could be interesting if we see lots of snipers in the future but honestly, I think I'd rather take my Gravis Captain in that case.
• Target Priority is imo the best one together with Princeps of Deceit. Hellblasters hitting on 2+ and don't kill themselves (unless the opponent has negative to-hit modificators)? Yes, please!
• Marksman's Honors is okay on the Captains sniper Bolter I guess since but otherwise not that great.

I can definitely see myself taking Princeps of Deceit or Target Priority over one of our own Warlord traits.

Too bad I really don't like the Captain, neither rules-wise nor looks-wise and making a Lieutenant, especially one who wants to get into melee without a melee weapon sounds like a terrible idea as well. So it would be most likely the Vanguard Libriarna who would become my Warlord which automatically makes me use his psychic powers as well. Luckily they aren't terrible though so that's fine. I guess you can see me soon running two Librarians in my lists and adding a ton of character sniping just by having the Librarian and some Eliminators lol

 

I'll probably add some Suppressors to my list as well simply because they have Jump Packs and offer some variety over just spamming Inceptors. I don't think they'll be that useful though.

I'm going to playtest the Infiltrators by proxying them with my Intercessors but I'm already pretty sure that I won't be adding more than one unit if at all. I hope the not-apothecary will be available for units smaller than 10 once it gets released outside of Shadowspear though since that's the most insteresting aspect about them imo and I'm not sure I want to commit to a full 10 man unit.

[Karhedron]

 

• Scryer's Gaze is just not great. Phobos units don't have any noteable ranged weapons except for Eliminators and those already hit well enough anyway. Maybe if we see an increased amount of units who can benefit more from cover or in Cities of Death matches.

 

It could be good on Supressors as they have significant firepower at their disposal. If the final rules for Supressors allow larger squads (e.g. 3-6 like Inceptors), I can actually see this being quite a good combo. 6 Autcannons, rerolling misses that can be spread around to kill overwatch on multiple targets definitely has potential. Or focus on a single target where 12 S7 Ap-2 D2 shots will make a dent on anything <T8.

[Xenith]

+1 to hit captain (with innate reroll 1 to hit) babysitting a gunline isnt too shabby. It also opens up hurricane bolter centurians in combination with beta bolters. 

 

I really like the scouting 2A2W3+ infantry that we get now. More durable scouts for an immediate midfield presence. I just hope the sergeant can take a power weapon. 

[Panzer]

 

 

• Scryer's Gaze is just not great. Phobos units don't have any noteable ranged weapons except for Eliminators and those already hit well enough anyway. Maybe if we see an increased amount of units who can benefit more from cover or in Cities of Death matches.

 

It could be good on Supressors as they have significant firepower at their disposal. If the final rules for Supressors allow larger squads (e.g. 3-6 like Inceptors), I can actually see this being quite a good combo. 6 Autcannons, rerolling misses that can be spread around to kill overwatch on multiple targets definitely has potential. Or focus on a single target where 12 S7 Ap-2 D2 shots will make a dent on anything <T8.

 

 

Suppressors are lacking the Phobos keyword, though.

[Xenith]

 

Suppressors are lacking the Phobos keyword, though.

 

The infiltrators were pictured with alternate blue helmets, so I'm hoping the multipart kit will include some heavy support variant. 

[Panzer]

 

 

Suppressors are lacking the Phobos keyword, though.

 

The infiltrators were pictured with alternate blue helmets, so I'm hoping the multipart kit will include some heavy support variant. 

 

 

Again, the picture was in a part of the article that talked about Phobos armour and how Space Marine heraldry applies to it in general. They just took the Infiltrator template as an example. It's EXTREMELY unlikely that a unit changes its FOC slot based on a weapon option. Why the blue helmet in the first place? Because we got Eliminators which wear Phobos armour and are Ranged Support so Blood Angels player know for sure that their masks would be painted blue the same way as Devastator helmets are blue.

[Karhedron]

Suppressors are lacking the Phobos keyword, though.

Darn!

 

I haven't picked up Shadowspear yet so I had missed that. I sort of assumed that all the new units in the box would have that Keyword. Still interested in the Suppressors but it is another knock against the new Psychic Discipline.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

 

Suppressors are lacking the Phobos keyword, though.

 

The infiltrators were pictured with alternate blue helmets, so I'm hoping the multipart kit will include some heavy support variant. 

 

 

Again, the picture was in a part of the article that talked about Phobos armour and how Space Marine heraldry applies to it in general. They just took the Infiltrator template as an example. It's EXTREMELY unlikely that a unit changes its FOC slot based on a weapon option. Why the blue helmet in the first place? Because we got Eliminators which wear Phobos armour and are Ranged Support so Blood Angels player know for sure that their masks would be painted blue the same way as Devastator helmets are blue.

 

Yeah the blue helmets are just to show how Blood Angels show heavy support role on their armor. Both the Eliminators and Suppressors fall into that.

It's just like how the codex shows Intercessors for the pages on Blood Angels chapter/company/squad markings and then shows the different colored helmets for the other battlefield roles. 

[Xenith]

 

 

 

 

 

Suppressors are lacking the Phobos keyword, though.

The infiltrators were pictured with alternate blue helmets, so I'm hoping the multipart kit will include some heavy support variant.

Again, the picture was in a part of the article that talked about Phobos armour and how Space Marine heraldry applies to it in general. They just took the Infiltrator template as an example. It's EXTREMELY unlikely that a unit changes its FOC slot based on a weapon option. Why the blue helmet in the first place? Because we got Eliminators which wear Phobos armour and are Ranged Support so Blood Angels player know for sure that their masks would be painted blue the same way as Devastator helmets are blue.

Obviously it wouldn't be the same unit, however same base model with different weapon options is generally how marines work.

 

Marines with heavy weapons move to heavy support.

Marines with chainswords move to fast attack.

Marines with fancy Bolters move to elite.

Centurians were either elite/fast or heavy depending on weapon option.

[Lathspell]

For me, suppressors will be an auto include from now on, a humble barebones captain and 3 units of 3 suppressors make for a very cheap outrider detachment woth 392 points, and bring a solid 18 shots s7 fp -2 d2 at 48", hitting on 3+ rerolling 1's and negating overwatch. With such range, i think deploying them on reserve is a waste. I'm thinking for a combo, with a forlorn fury 15 men strong dc jumpack unit, and uwof 10 men vanguard  veteran unit charging turn 1 with no overwatch, nasty.

 

I find infiltrators a very situational unit, they are a bit expensive, a unit of 5 on 110, they have the same role as our scout units, safe for fighting genestealer cult, that no deploy 12" bubble is amazing, almost nullyfying the effects of the cult ambush, and making characters inmune to that pesky kelermorph. Want one character safe?, surround him with a 5 men unit of infiltrators and he'll be out of range to target the character.

 

Eliminators are also an autoinclude, a unit of 3 for 72 points is a bargain. Combine 3 units of suppressors and 3 of eliminators, they are worth 531 points and fill 6 slots of the brigade, fast attack and heavy support. Combine with 6 units of scouts and you'll end with an almost complete brigade for 861 points, leaving the rest to share amongst hq and elites, and maybe some flyers. Let's make some numbers, 15 dc marines with jumpacks, chainswords and boltguns are 300 points, 5 sanguinary guards with fists and angelus boltguns 160 and 10 vanguard veterans with stormshields, chainswords and 5 hammers 270, total 1591 points, 2 smash captains 248 and a humble lieutenant 63, 311. A full brigade for 1902, and easy to adjust to 1850 with a very powerful punch, not the most powerful shooting phase, but hey, we are blood angels, we don't need that!      . Quite nice overall.

 

I'm not too fond of the characters, i only find the librarian in phobos armor situational, but otherwise i would stick to our normal HQ's.

 

Hope you find this useful.

[Knaru]

I see a use for Temporal Corridor.  A Phobos Librarian Warlord with Master of the Vanguard as a Warlord Trait can use it on himself to relocate 13-18" (average 17") in order to guide in 8" charges.  It gives you a lot of room to react to your opponent's deployment, and combines well with Forlorn Fury and Upon Wings of Fire first turn.  And, on the following turn, he can move just as far to assist deep-strikers elsewhere, as needed.

(Edit: Typo.  :( )

[Brother Crimson]

Just got my boxes :)

 

I’m really impressed by the warlord traits.

The +1 advance move charge is a blessing for primaris marines that lack a bit in mobility. Aggressors for instance just got to speed 7+ advance, pretty cool. Otherwise for DC dropping out of deep strike it rises charge success from 48% to 66% (with reroll).

 

Princept of deceit is great and we all know games can be lost in deployment.

 

Target priority + plasma is going to be great again. And really any good shooting likes a +1.

 

I agree for the most part with sfpanzer for psychic powers, the buffing ones are really limited by the amount of Phobos units atm.

[Panzer]

Just ordered 3 Eliminators, 3 Suppressors and a Vanguard Librarian for cheap from ebay.

A Reiver HQ would've been nice to drop with my Sanguinary Guard Reivers but the way they implemented the Phobos Lieutenant with grav-chutes gives me zero reason to get one. Except for his helmet he doesn't look that different compared to regular Reivers and his rules suck a lot.

The Captain and the Infiltrators I'm just generally not a fan of. Maybe if Infiltrators get a points drop of ~5ppm and can take the not-apothecary in a 5 man unit I'll get some. I'll test them out by proxying them with my Intercessors anyway but I don't expect to like them and I'm not that interested to field even more phobos armour units either (my chapter is the KNIGHTS of Baal, not the Scouts of Baal ... and I don't feel like copying Dark Angels with their two wings either lol).

 

Bummer, since if I'd actually like the Captain, Lieutenant and Infiltrators I definitely would've bought the whole box.

[dread05]

Are supressors a fast attack option?

[Panzer]

Are supressors a fast attack option?

 

That's right. Fast Attack in the FOC and Fire Support in the company structure (so blue helmets).

 

 

[dread05]

its getting confusing -.-

[redshadow]

So they have blue helmets?

[Panzer]

So they have blue helmets?

 

If you go with the standard Blood Angels heraldry, yes.

They are basically Devastators that got a Jump Pack and got pushed into the Fast Attack FOC slot.