Future of Non-Codex compliant chapters

[Kasper_Hawser]

Morning everyone (from where I am). I was wondering in light of all the updates for Primaris lately, which have been basically blanket new units to all Space Marine chapters, do you think GW will ever get back to the separate Space Marine codexes, aka DA, BA and Wolves? 

 

I know it's unreasonable and non-proven gut feeling, but I'm getting a shudder as to whether one day, like our Black Templar brothers who are just as non-codex compliant, DA, BA, and SW can potentially be shoe horned into the basic Codex Space Marines like in 6th edition. 

 

Just help me articulate WHY this cannot happen and help expand the list below to aleviate my anxiety:

 

Why it cannot happen

1) SW, BA, and DA have too many different characters and units, therefore if they tried to stuff them into one codex, even without the fluff from the 3 chapters, the Codex would be as thick as the Bible.

 

2) SW, BA and DA still have a large market to cater to, though certainly not as big as generic SM, although I think the market for all 4 overlaps each other, therefore more codexes, more books to sell, electronic or paper. However, I have no source on this, for all I know, the SW market is either decreasing or as someone once mentioned, stable/stagnant.

 

3) SW, BA and DA have their own story centre stages to set up new lines of models Primaris or otherwise. Whether it is Russ returning, or Death Company BA, or the possible future Primaris inducted into the Inner Circle of the DA, there is just so much that GW can expand its sales and production.

 

What can possible screw the above:

1) I can't help but remember the Dark Eldar at one point having many characters, and then suddenly having most of them removed including Vect himself. Granted it was because of the banal attitude of GW at the time to not have rules for characters/units which didn't have models. But I guess worst case scenario is that in order to remove the character bloat of the 3 chapters, as is their perogative, they could simply make them vanish without a trace or reason like what happened to Vect. 

 

Again i'm just imagining worst case scenario, they decide they only retain 3 characters or 3 units from each, then erase the rest. For SW, maybe only leave Logan, Ragnar and Njal, bye bye Arjac, Canis (who will not be missed) and Harald (who will be missed).

 

2)  Again I have no data or citation on this. In my meta in Malaysia, I'm certainly one of perhaps three out of 30+ players in my FLGS. Not sure how it is wordwide or by country. For all I know, what I said in point number 2 is totally wrong.

 

3) GW at its whim and fancy could just do a WH Fantasy End Times on us for each chapter and simply not care about Russ coming back, or the Fallen, or the Imperium Nihilus. Unlikely but this is just worst case scenario.

 

When all is said and done, I think GW won't abandon the non codex compliant chapters, however it may be a long time before any of us (SW, BA, DA) gets our own Codex Version 2 like what the CSM are getting now.

 

I guess what I want to hear from you is both sides of the argument. I know I'm probably a fool for doubting, but I hope you gently allay my worries to rest.

[clanfield]

skol

 

this is a subject of hot debate in my circle I have a few thoughts:

 

against:

 

if gw wanted to cut cost they could roll us all in to the basic codex that's how it all started back in first and can work however

 

1 the cost of the moulds for currant range would probably need to have been paid off first.

2 from a creative point of view the designers would need a direction to explore.(bretonia died because of this )

3 I have heard of 40k getting the sigmar treatment but done better (as that caused a storm)

4 fluffy hiccups such as primaris libbys being trained before coming into contact with the Fenris world spirit

 

for:

 

we are popular (I think)

 

1 I think well end up being more wolf than Viking(cultural approbation is disappearing from the range)

2 russ would sell a bucket ton of any flavour

3 the primarchs return would allow a major rejig of the chapter

4 well the wulfen did come back you can smell the snow in the air

 

 

personel note:

 

I prefure the Viking theme ,iv played wolves from the start back in 87 and seen all our changes im not a big fan of "wolf" claws as opposed the "lighting " claw etc but love our unique units for the most part (thunder wolves are silly idea in my opinion)

but I can see how gw would want to shrink the whole marine range as its a bit of a ramble at this point

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Honestly I am not worried. If anything gw seems to be going more diverse with their ranges. Chaos, once 2 books, has been slowly getting chapter specific book and there range is expanding. I see no reason for them to widen the chaos side while doing the opposite to the imperial side. I suspect that once they get primaris fully rolled out they will come back and spruce up the non codex compliant chapters and maybe even make some chapter specific primaris. GW is slow,always bear that in mind. They have made great strides in speed recently but they still don't release at crazy speeds, their game and range are just to large and right now I expect they view primaris as a way to appease a large subset of their customers as it works for all marine ranges.

[Slasher956]

side note - Bretonia died due to the inability for any of the models to be protected by IP.... rather amusing when you consider the old models in both Fantasy & 40K which were based off other peoples works /real life characters....

 

OT - I dont think that GW will squat BA/DA/SWs as they have such a visual difference to the rest of the range.  As for range consolidation that may cause a return of the upgrade box..

 

ie a single SWs box that contains 6 chest plates 2 power packs, several heads, different bolters etc etc which you then get along side the standard marine + SW character & specific unit boxs.

[Dark_Jober]

I think we will see the Big 4 for a long time.
It is true Primaris inclusion seems to remove some aspects that each chapters has as uniques, breaking the normal develope and fighting structure. Bloodclaw->Grey Hunter->Long Fang could dissapear...

But still SW are one of the public's favorites, with unique units (not only characters) and that is a strong point.

I'm a Black Templar, we have a divergent structure, maybe SW are the closest in structure, but we only have Characters... No special flyers, no mutants or wolves... So we were rolled into Vainilla Codex, and then we lost our "unique units" (different veteran squads, closer to Wolf Guard than Vainilla Vets). So we mantain our Characters, and some limitations. In the other hand, we received many units we didn't have before (Scouts, Scout Bikers, Devs...) and many new units.

 

I play BT with SM codex, but other games I play with SW codex, cause it allows me to deploy Sword Brethern (Wolf Guard) and give some bonus to close combat.

[Guest Triszin]

I think primaris wise, the unique nature will be refined into 1-2 elite units. Wulfen, grey slayers, deathcompany sanguinary gaurdians, deathwing, and so on.

 

And eventually, besides chapter traits, the only real difference would be in those elite units and how they effect other units around them

[NatBrannigan]

Yep, what he said.

 

The Primaris Marines are a chance to remove some of the crazy bloat in the Marine range. There are so many overlapping units that do the same thing but have different rules, points costs, boxes it's hard to keep track, hard to stock all the models and makes the codex a bloated mess. It also makes it harder to balance the game and that's hard enough all ready. The future will probably be a generic box that you can combine with the upgrade sprues to make units for different chapters.

 

So: a 10 man close combat veteran box, lets call them "Enstabenators". Those can be taken by any codex chapter as they are. However add some options from the Space Wolf upgrade sprue like Frost Axes and they become "Primaris Wolf Guard Hunters". Librarian in Phobos armour becomes Rune priest in Phobos armour (you can add some Wolfy bits to the model easily if you want).

 

The flavour then comes from Strategems and chapter tactics. Imperial Fist Agressors have access to bolter drill so you want them standing still and shooting. very Fisty. Space Wolf Agressors can be outflanked and are better in combat which is quite Wolfy, but it's the same unit with the same rules / points / box etc.

 

That might mean a single codex in the far future when the current standard marines are phased out. For now it's all too much too put into one book.

[Guest Triszin]

Yep, what he said.

 

The Primaris Marines are a chance to remove some of the crazy bloat in the Marine range. There are so many overlapping units that do the same thing but have different rules, points costs, boxes it's hard to keep track, hard to stock all the models and makes the codex a bloated mess. It also makes it harder to balance the game and that's hard enough all ready. The future will probably be a generic box that you can combine with the upgrade sprues to make units for different chapters.

 

So: a 10 man close combat veteran box, lets call them "Enstabenators". Those can be taken by any codex chapter as they are. However add some options from the Space Wolf upgrade sprue like Frost Axes and they become "Primaris Wolf Guard Hunters". Librarian in Phobos armour becomes Rune priest in Phobos armour (you can add some Wolfy bits to the model easily if you want).

 

The flavour then comes from Strategems and chapter tactics. Imperial Fist Agressors have access to bolter drill so you want them standing still and shooting. very Fisty. Space Wolf Agressors can be outflanked and are better in combat which is quite Wolfy, but it's the same unit with the same rules / points / box etc.

 

That might mean a single codex in the far future when the current standard marines are phased out. For now it's all too much too put into one book.

I agree with most of it besides the single book.

 

I could see " codex compliant " (Ultras, fists) book, and a non codex compliant book(wolves, blood angles, dark angels space sharks Templars)

 

Non codex compliant could have unit roles shifted around and you pay a tax to get elite units as troops and so on.

 

Aka: greyslayers are an elite choice, however if your army is battleforged and only contains spaced wolf models then they can also be taken as troops, or praris wolf gaurd can be troops, allowing us to make grey hunters, bloodclaws or whatever we want.

 

Dark angels pure army, deathwing are troop choice

 

It would also add benefits to taking pure armies

[sbarnby71]

I think GW will keep the separate Codex as variety makes money, as long as the profit continues then it will to, take the Horus Hersey Novels, how many sub novels and breakaway books have we seen? It's all about making money so they will keep churning out new codex, new models, new fluff and we will keep on buying it, we may get annoyed at some decisions, but it would take something major to annoy enough people to drop the hobby.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Honestly I am not worried. If anything gw seems to be going more diverse with their ranges. Chaos, once 2 books, has been slowly getting chapter specific book and there range is expanding. I see no reason for them to widen the chaos side while doing the opposite to the imperial side. I suspect that once they get primaris fully rolled out they will come back and spruce up the non codex compliant chapters and maybe even make some chapter specific primaris. GW is slow,always bear that in mind. They have made great strides in speed recently but they still don't release at crazy speeds, their game and range are just to large and right now I expect they view primaris as a way to appease a large subset of their customers as it works for all marine ranges.

 

Agree with this. SW/BA/DA are not going to go away. We may not get Chapter specific primaris releases for awhile. GW has a lot of work to do on the generic range. They also have to figure out what they want to do with our uniqueness. How does TWC translate into primaris? Death company/jump pack units for BA? How about deathwing terminators and ravenwing bikes? GW still have to figure that out.

 

We already got a "primaris" release with the scale GW gave us for the Wulfen. Jervis did us a big favor doing that scale before we even knew primaris were a thing.

 

It's going to be awhile before another chapter specific release. Just sit tight. If you get bored use this opportunity to start a secondary army. I am having a great time with my Dark Eldar project.

[Guest Triszin]

Ya, I really appreciate the upscaled wulfen.

[Bulwyf]

I don't think we are going to go back to previous editions with no separate non codex chapters. GW knows that having more variety is good for sales and fan loyalty.

[Wispy]

i think your insecurity is misplaced. they're just trying to be permissive so everyone can enjoy the new toys, not just codex armies.

[Guest]

I imagine that we will get SW-specific Primaris later. Right now we have to get generic Primaris out. They still lack transports, flyers, melee, etc.

 

I expect that Codex SM will get a new book with another wave of Primaris, similiar to how CSM got a new codex. If we get Russ, I expect we will get a new codex then. If no Russ, then we will have to wait our turn with the Big 4.

 

To be honest I do not see Russ coming back anytime soon. With the 13th not "hard-canon" and may not become canonn, we really don't have much going on in 8th. Vigilus is all about the UM with SW and others thrown in for flavor. BA have more going for them than SW do.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

personel note:

 

I prefure the Viking theme ,iv played wolves from the start back in 87 and seen all our changes im not a big fan of "wolf" claws as opposed the "lighting " claw etc but love our unique units for the most part (thunder wolves are silly idea in my opinion)

but I can see how gw would want to shrink the whole marine range as its a bit of a ramble at this point

 

Thanks for your input, I too prefer Viking theme but around 2017, I had to accept that we no longer team viking, we team Jacob. :( Oh well, Long Fangs and Grey Hunters for the win.

 

 

Honestly I am not worried. If anything gw seems to be going more diverse with their ranges. Chaos, once 2 books, has been slowly getting chapter specific book and there range is expanding. I see no reason for them to widen the chaos side while doing the opposite to the imperial side. I suspect that once they get primaris fully rolled out they will come back and spruce up the non codex compliant chapters and maybe even make some chapter specific primaris. GW is slow,always bear that in mind. They have made great strides in speed recently but they still don't release at crazy speeds, their game and range are just to large and right now I expect they view primaris as a way to appease a large subset of their customers as it works for all marine ranges.

 

Thanks. Hope yo are right that GW is just taking its time before expanding the non-codex marine lines with Primaris and possibly Primarchs. to be fair, I think the last 2 years 2017-2018 have been a roller coaster from GW comparatively to the snail pace 2014-2016. Whether GW truly became receptive to customer input is up to debate though. In my eyes, they are trying but still come falling short of expectations in terms of crunch. But that's not the topic here.

 

 

I think we will see the Big 4 for a long time.

It is true Primaris inclusion seems to remove some aspects that each chapters has as uniques, breaking the normal develope and fighting structure. Bloodclaw->Grey Hunter->Long Fang could dissapear...

 

But still SW are one of the public's favorites, with unique units (not only characters) and that is a strong point.

 

I'm a Black Templar, we have a divergent structure, maybe SW are the closest in structure, but we only have Characters... No special flyers, no mutants or wolves... So we were rolled into Vainilla Codex, and then we lost our "unique units" (different veteran squads, closer to Wolf Guard than Vainilla Vets). So we mantain our Characters, and some limitations. In the other hand, we received many units we didn't have before (Scouts, Scout Bikers, Devs...) and many new units.

 

I play BT with SM codex, but other games I play with SW codex, cause it allows me to deploy Sword Brethern (Wolf Guard) and give some bonus to close combat.

 

Sorry Jober, do you mean in your first time that we "Won't" see the big 4 for a long time? that would make more sense as others mention that GW wants to update the Vanilla line with new Primaris before touching on the non-codex and giving them their "primaris flavor" which isn't copy paste from the Vanilla ones. I'm honored that you play your Black Templars with SW rules, it's almost unheard of in my meta. I hope when the BT were rolled into Vanilla, you didn't feel too bad or annoyed. I wrote this topic because I'm scared it'll happen to not just Wolves but the Big 4 as well.

 

To the rest, thanks for your reassurance. I guess I'll go hibernate or go on a long walkabout before Space Wolves 2.0 comes out with Russ, 13th Company and divergent Primaris wolves.

[Dark_Jober]

 

 

personel note:

 

I prefure the Viking theme ,iv played wolves from the start back in 87 and seen all our changes im not a big fan of "wolf" claws as opposed the "lighting " claw etc but love our unique units for the most part (thunder wolves are silly idea in my opinion)

but I can see how gw would want to shrink the whole marine range as its a bit of a ramble at this point

 

Thanks for your input, I too prefer Viking theme but around 2017, I had to accept that we no longer team viking, we team Jacob. Oh well, Long Fangs and Grey Hunters for the win.

 

 

Honestly I am not worried. If anything gw seems to be going more diverse with their ranges. Chaos, once 2 books, has been slowly getting chapter specific book and there range is expanding. I see no reason for them to widen the chaos side while doing the opposite to the imperial side. I suspect that once they get primaris fully rolled out they will come back and spruce up the non codex compliant chapters and maybe even make some chapter specific primaris. GW is slow,always bear that in mind. They have made great strides in speed recently but they still don't release at crazy speeds, their game and range are just to large and right now I expect they view primaris as a way to appease a large subset of their customers as it works for all marine ranges.

 

Thanks. Hope yo are right that GW is just taking its time before expanding the non-codex marine lines with Primaris and possibly Primarchs. to be fair, I think the last 2 years 2017-2018 have been a roller coaster from GW comparatively to the snail pace 2014-2016. Whether GW truly became receptive to customer input is up to debate though. In my eyes, they are trying but still come falling short of expectations in terms of crunch. But that's not the topic here.

 

 

I think we will see the Big 4 for a long time.

It is true Primaris inclusion seems to remove some aspects that each chapters has as uniques, breaking the normal develope and fighting structure. Bloodclaw->Grey Hunter->Long Fang could dissapear...

 

But still SW are one of the public's favorites, with unique units (not only characters) and that is a strong point.

 

I'm a Black Templar, we have a divergent structure, maybe SW are the closest in structure, but we only have Characters... No special flyers, no mutants or wolves... So we were rolled into Vainilla Codex, and then we lost our "unique units" (different veteran squads, closer to Wolf Guard than Vainilla Vets). So we mantain our Characters, and some limitations. In the other hand, we received many units we didn't have before (Scouts, Scout Bikers, Devs...) and many new units.

 

I play BT with SM codex, but other games I play with SW codex, cause it allows me to deploy Sword Brethern (Wolf Guard) and give some bonus to close combat.

 

Sorry Jober, do you mean in your first time that we "Won't" see the big 4 for a long time? that would make more sense as others mention that GW wants to update the Vanilla line with new Primaris before touching on the non-codex and giving them their "primaris flavor" which isn't copy paste from the Vanilla ones. I'm honored that you play your Black Templars with SW rules, it's almost unheard of in my meta. I hope when the BT were rolled into Vanilla, you didn't feel too bad or annoyed. I wrote this topic because I'm scared it'll happen to not just Wolves but the Big 4 as well.

 

To the rest, thanks for your reassurance. I guess I'll go hibernate or go on a long walkabout before Space Wolves 2.0 comes out with Russ, 13th Company and divergent Primaris wolves.

 

 

Sorry brother, English is not my mother language and sometimes maybe I write bad.

 

I think Big4 will have a long life, specially in Lore. I suppose they will mantain the 4 books, because they not only sell the common units, in addition they can sell the specific units: wolf-things, vampire/cursed marines, normal marines and traitor monks.

But it is true that Primaris, at least in this first waves are destroying the unique characteristics: Primaris receive the subfactions bonus, ok, that is true... but they break the spirit...

 

I like that difference Primaris' culture vs Oldmarines' culture, but... what if Primaris win at the end?

Yeah, Inceptors and Reiver are doing the Test of Morkai, but... one of the most important thing in SW are the evolution from human->Neophyte/Bloodclaw with all the wildness and fury, losing the selfcontrol, and then forging their spirit and becoming more and more focused... But with Primaris process this disapear... One day you're an aspirant, and then a battlebrother in the Intercessor Squad... where is the rage, the wolf fighting inside?

 

In BT it is similar. Before 6th edition, we couldn't pick Scouts squads, because Neophytes were inducted with an Initiate (Battlebrother) in mixed squads, so they learn with his master. Then we were rolled into SM codex, and suddenly "best neophytes could be deployed in Scouts Squads"... Well... they wanted to sell Scouts Bikers and Sniper Scouts... So they reforged that part of the lore.

 

But don't get me wrong. I love the Primaris lore, they come from another era so their culture is different and there is much space for inner conflicts, culture trading and that stuff. But if Primaris change the Codex Astartes... then if Codex Astartes dissapears or it is heavily fixed, we will be more and more Codex Compilant... less divergent.

BA and DA are not codex compilant, but their structure is closer to Codex than SW or BT... But if the codex changes we will be less special, not so divergent.

[Kasper_Hawser]

LOL, sorry if I sound like I'm picking on people's English. Not my intention.

 

In my heart, i'm also preparing for a change of the old guard to complete Primaris one day. I can only pray that during the transition, it won't be a blood bath between the old and new guard. And that in the end, the new Primaris Wolves will still retain something of the tenets of Leman Russ, and not merely dress in Space Wolves colors when in reality they follow Guilliman more than their own ancient heritage.

 

Ideally it would be a merger of the old and new, which is more believeable in the Space Wolves who have changed before from blood thirsty executioners to "gruff defender heroes" of humanity. That process took about 10K years though. If russ returns, will be easier, hopefully.

[Guest Triszin]

As a note.

 

The new infiltrators helmets. Have a viking helm feel to them.

 

The armor plate beneath the eyes. ( I'll post pics when I get to a computer)

 

 

------

 

@ jober, there's been many discussions about a space wolf Dex being used to represent the black Templars in form and I personally think they fit well. Maybe the wolves Dex should have a few non codex compliant other chapters tossed in the book, space sharks, Templars and 1-2 more? (Non big 4)

[Wispy]

You guys are too much,so paranoid, lol

[Kinstryfe]

Looking at all the releases for the CSM coming out that break the mold of just being spiky marines, I'm going to predict that the opposite of what you're thinking will happen. I predict next time one of the big divergent chapters gets revisited it will actually diverge more and we'll see a bunch of unique interesting additions to make them play less like "Marines + XYZ" and more like their own thing. Space Wolf Warrior Poets who follow great heroes around to spur them to greater deeds with sagas of old, Wolfborn Primaris whose geneseed was kicked into overdrive making their senses almost unbearable in battle until they've slain the enemy, etc. Plenty of room for things to get crazier rather than more homogeneous.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Looking at all the releases for the CSM coming out that break the mold of just being spiky marines, I'm going to predict that the opposite of what you're thinking will happen. I predict next time one of the big divergent chapters gets revisited it will actually diverge more and we'll see a bunch of unique interesting additions to make them play less like "Marines + XYZ" and more like their own thing. Space Wolf Warrior Poets who follow great heroes around to spur them to greater deeds with sagas of old, Wolfborn Primaris whose geneseed was kicked into overdrive making their senses almost unbearable in battle until they've slain the enemy, etc. Plenty of room for things to get crazier rather than more homogeneous.

 

Thanks for your confident prediction mate. It's a bit sad that although our codex was only released..... OK, not that long ago, bout 6 months now, yet not even a year pass, it still isn't enough to equalize the Wolves with everyone else. At best, we have a fighting chance but our synergy in assault is really lacking.

 

For the Wolftime and the return of Russ and the 13th Company. Until then... guess I'll fight on instead of hibernating but only after going back to the Fang for meditation and drills before heading out again.

[Bulwyf]

 

Looking at all the releases for the CSM coming out that break the mold of just being spiky marines, I'm going to predict that the opposite of what you're thinking will happen. I predict next time one of the big divergent chapters gets revisited it will actually diverge more and we'll see a bunch of unique interesting additions to make them play less like "Marines + XYZ" and more like their own thing. Space Wolf Warrior Poets who follow great heroes around to spur them to greater deeds with sagas of old, Wolfborn Primaris whose geneseed was kicked into overdrive making their senses almost unbearable in battle until they've slain the enemy, etc. Plenty of room for things to get crazier rather than more homogeneous.

 

Thanks for your confident prediction mate. It's a bit sad that although our codex was only released..... OK, not that long ago, bout 6 months now, yet not even a year pass, it still isn't enough to equalize the Wolves with everyone else. At best, we have a fighting chance but our synergy in assault is really lacking.

 

For the Wolftime and the return of Russ and the 13th Company. Until then... guess I'll fight on instead of hibernating but only after going back to the Fang for meditation and drills before heading out again.

 

 

We got a terrible codex. There is simply no other way to saying it. We were forced to wait that long for a bad codex. Our army is overpriced and lacks basic components that multiple armies have. When you combine those factors against other players it makes SW very weak. There's been multiple podcasts and tourney players listing all the current armies from best to worst. Space Wolves consistently come in tied for worst with Grey Knights as the worst army in the entire game.

 

Depressing. I know in my own meta that it is hard to win games with SW. I won't soup because I hate it. Even against mono codex lists the SW struggle so much. I'd like to see the Big FAQ coming help us out somewhat but I strongly doubt it.

[Yoyo ninja]

 

 

 

 

Looking at all the releases for the CSM coming out that break the mold of just being spiky marines, I'm going to predict that the opposite of what you're thinking will happen. I predict next time one of the big divergent chapters gets revisited it will actually diverge more and we'll see a bunch of unique interesting additions to make them play less like "Marines + XYZ" and more like their own thing. Space Wolf Warrior Poets who follow great heroes around to spur them to greater deeds with sagas of old, Wolfborn Primaris whose geneseed was kicked into overdrive making their senses almost unbearable in battle until they've slain the enemy, etc. Plenty of room for things to get crazier rather than more homogeneous.

Thanks for your confident prediction mate. It's a bit sad that although our codex was only released..... OK, not that long ago, bout 6 months now, yet not even a year pass, it still isn't enough to equalize the Wolves with everyone else. At best, we have a fighting chance but our synergy in assault is really lacking.

 

For the Wolftime and the return of Russ and the 13th Company. Until then... guess I'll fight on instead of hibernating but only after going back to the Fang for meditation and drills before heading out again.

We got a terrible codex. There is simply no other way to saying it. We were forced to wait that long for a bad codex. Our army is overpriced and lacks basic components that multiple armies have. When you combine those factors against other players it makes SW very weak. There's been multiple podcasts and tourney players listing all the current armies from best to worst. Space Wolves consistently come in tied for worst with Grey Knights as the worst army in the entire game.

 

Depressing. I know in my own meta that it is hard to win games with SW. I won't soup because I hate it. Even against mono codex lists the SW struggle so much. I'd like to see the Big FAQ coming help us out somewhat but I strongly doubt it.

Some basic things like lowering the CP cost of cloaked by the storm and reducing points costs of things will go a way to helping us out. And as none of our unique units or strats got looked at last FAQ then I would imagine they will get looked at this time. It would also be nice to have Bizzard shields go back to 3++, as our dreads are a very viable anti knight unit, but they just need a bit more resilience to get across the board, especially against the likes of a castelian.

[Wispy]

I think Black Templar’s were a victim of the shift to hardcover, and not really useful as an example or precursor to the other 3 non compliant chapters with books. The Templars arguably didn’t have as much lore or unique units as the others to warrant spending so much on a larger hard cover tome. You can say they have their slot to deathwatch or any other new codex since.

So i have some insight into the Templars. It goes back over 10 years (i mean, i was told about 10 years ago but decision was likely before that) where GW strategically decided to downplay the Templars as something they'd continue to support with unique models and kits and rulebooks. Meanwhile 5th edition Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights were all part of the business strategy going forward and got heavy support.

 

Knowing that, my assumption is that the Black Templars place in the current hardcover codex is a courtesy, so that the people who bought the models and are somewhat invested in that Chapter can still use them. Backwards compatibility if you will.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

We got a terrible codex. There is simply no other way to saying it. We were forced to wait that long for a bad codex. Our army is overpriced and lacks basic components that multiple armies have. When you combine those factors against other players it makes SW very weak. There's been multiple podcasts and tourney players listing all the current armies from best to worst. Space Wolves consistently come in tied for worst with Grey Knights as the worst army in the entire game.

 

Depressing. I know in my own meta that it is hard to win games with SW. I won't soup because I hate it. Even against mono codex lists the SW struggle so much. I'd like to see the Big FAQ coming help us out somewhat but I strongly doubt it.

 

 

I think however bad we think Space Wolves are, the Grey Knights are worse. Besides, we shouldn't listen to internet opinion but rely on our own experience as they can get really toxic to the point of overexageration. 

 

Sadly our own experience seem to match the internet opinion though.

 

Anyway guys, point you back to the video Fearpetey posted awhile back to continue to stand firm in light of the codex creep. Most of my negativity I now realise and admit is a knee jerk reaction to the new CSM codex and Vigilus Ablaze. It maybe true, but until I face them in it's full and (supposedly) broken glory, I will reign in my negativity.

 

Need to watch Fearpetey's shared video again. Here's the link for those who haven't seen it.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354305-to-my-brothers/