AM/IG Slow Grow League

[BaronBanana]

I'll be joining a slow grow league in the nearish future, and since Sisters aren't out, I'll give the good ol' Guard a college try.  I know what kind of army I want to play, but I need a little guidance on what is actually a good thing to play and what should just be avoided.  I would like to build towards using Basilisks or Leman Russ', a super heavy or two (They look too cool not to use, I've not heard great things, but I'm not actively trying to go to tournaments), sentinels, and obviously loads of infantry.  I don't see a lot of lists using heavy weapon squads in the troop choices, is there a reason?  Even if baneblade chassis aren't optimal in most situations, which ones are definite "Avoids"?    Thanks for the help

[HallofStovokor]

It's hard to say. There are many different options for playing the guard. Each regiment and has different builds to play different ways.

[GuardDaddy]

I'd second hallofstokor's comment.

 

You can play pretty much all styles with guard. You can definitely go heavy armour if you wish.

 

Core ideas are to get enough bodies to screen your core units. Guardsman are of course great for this.

 

Mortar Heavy Weapon Teams (they are not a Troop slot) are great value - thats why you see them so much. Very cheap and indirect fire in this edition is big as increasingly LoS blocking terrain is expected scenery wise in abundance. They are incredibly easy to kill, so being able to hide them and still use them is another reason for their popularity.

 

I'd also put 100 pts aside for Pychic phase (either going with your own pyskers - or the anti-pysker assasin)

[WarriorFish]

Plenty of troopers will be important to hold the enemy back and dish out some damage too, but the main lifting is the big guns. Leman Russ tanks are solid, and Baneblade chassis super heavies are Russes dialled up to 11 ;) As mentioned the infantry are mainly a protective measure, but some anti-psychic defence is also a good addition to help round that off. Don't forget pictures ;)

[BaronBanana]

For Russes, are the guns situational or are there 'go to' guns?  Also, from what I remember/seen, not a lot of people use Sponsons, is it just to save points?

[HallofStovokor]

For Russes, are the guns situational or are there 'go to' guns? Also, from what I remember/seen, not a lot of people use Sponsons, is it just to save points?

It depends on how close to the point cap you are and the type of role you need the tank to perform. A punisher is always going to have HB hull and sponson weapons. The purpose of that tank is to throw as many shots as possible. The battle cannon is long range and might not get close enough for sponsons to make sense. Demolishers are close range tanks so more dakka is generally wanted. Executioners are mid range, but only meltas and flamers are shorter range than the main gun so plasma sponsons are often given the them. Vanquisher is garbage, so we'll not worry about it. Exterminators are medium damage tanks. A little extra firepower is usually wise with it. The annihilator is usually only given a hull lascannon. Eradicators suck nearly as bad as the vanquisher, although it does have some uses. Bring meltas to get anti-tank capabilities with that variant.

[Yorkston]

For Russes, are the guns situational or are there 'go to' guns?  Also, from what I remember/seen, not a lot of people use Sponsons, is it just to save points?

 

One thing to keep in mind, there are two kits for the Russ.  You can magnetize the 3-4 options for each kit easily, but cross-kit is tricky due to different turret assembly. 

 

"Leman Russ" Kit:

 

LRBT(battle cannon)- The default.  Long range and reasonable effective against just about everything.  Not too picky about BS.  A solid generalist and what people usually take as a non-commander Russ.  Usually not taken with sponsons as it tends to lurk in the back and abuse the 72" range.

 

Vanquisher-  No.  Just no.  Take a lascannon team instead, or a tank commander with the Vigilus relic cannon.

 

Eradicator- Usually no.  The eradicator gun is just a S6 battlecannon with ignore cover, and 7pts cheaper.  An argument can be made for fighting something like Death Guard, but usually you want to cough up the extra few points for a LRBT so it stays dangerous to larger targets.

 

Exterminator- For some reason this tank didn't get its shots doubled when twin-linked went away.  While still a respectable amount of dakka, guard has so many ways to spam autocannons that it's usually a better idea to take another version.  

 

 

"Demolisher" Kit:

 

Demolisher- Now with a reasonable point cost as of CA.  Very short range, but very angry.  Gets more shots vs large units, but the d6 damage tends to be wasted on those targets.  Situational, and makes a decent distraction Carnifex.  Like the Punisher, range is its Achilles heel.  Have a way to get it in the enemy's face.

 

Punisher- All the dakka.  Give it bolters, and on the sponsons, and on the pintle.  This is one tank where you always take the sponsons, as volume of fire is what you are after.  Is at least mildly dangerous to most targets through the pure power of its S5 bullet hose, but particularly likes hordes and things with poor saves.  Like the Demolisher it suffers from a 24" range, so have a way to get it there.  Tallarn strategem or Vigilus formation can help with that.  Give this tank to Commander Pask for extra hilarity, but expect it to get obliterated ASAP.  Guard's ultimate distraction Carnifex.

 

Executioner- The plasma tank.  Thankfully it does not cripple itself on a 1 anymore, it just takes a wound.  That being said, it should still be taken as or along with a tank commander for the reroll 1s order.  Frequently taken with the plasma sponsons.  36" range isn't amazing but is usually sufficient on smaller boards.  Preferred targets are heavy infantry and Necrons, but it makes for a reasonable all-comers tank.  

 

 

The LRBT and the Executioner are going to be the "generalist" options, with situational uses for the others.  As for sponsons in general, the big questions are range and movement.  A battle cannon has double the range of any sponsons so they likely won't even be shooting.  The other issue is unlike the main gun, sponsons and hull weapons still take the -1 hit penalty for movement.  Most people prefer to keep things cheap unless they are running the detachment as Tallarn (removes heavy weapon hit penalty).  As a general rule, Guard prefers to have lots of units over heavily pimping out a few.

 

If you are looking at what to buy, the Cadian Defence Force box is a decent starting point.  I believe the contents are:

 

1 Leman Russ (good)

1 Chimera (not great, but can be kitbashed/proxied as a hellhound without too much effort.)

2 Infantry squads (necessary)

1 Command Squad (company commander is necessary, the rest of the box is useful as a source of special weapons)

1 Heavy Weapon Squad (good, make 3x mortar teams)

[BaronBanana]

Thanks for the all the details, I didn't know the demolisher and battle tank were separate kits, so that's good to know.  Reading everything, I'd probably take normal battle tanks over the rest because they seem to suit how I would play the army.  As for a starting point, because I want to run tank heavy as the league progresses, I was actually looking at picking up two Start Collecting! kits and a Command squad. 

 

EDIT ::  the CDF + a second tank kit is slightly better than two Start Collecting! kits+Command squad

[HallofStovokor]

Killa Cans can be in squads of over 5. The demolisher is going to wound those on 2+ and will get 2D6 shots. Here's how I rank the tank variants in usefulness.

 

1. Battle Cannon (tie)

1. Executioner (tie)

3. Punisher

4. Demolisher

5. Exterminator

6. Annihilator

7. Eradicator

8. Vanquisher (hot garbage)

 

The battle cannon and executioner are tied due to their both being solid choices, but excelling in different ways. Battle cannons are long range and good against everything, but the gun only has AP-2 and has variable damage output. The executioner has AP-3 and a fixed damage output of 2 (supercharged), but can wound itself and has a limited range. The best regiments for your tanks are Cadia, Catachan, Valhalla and Tallarn. Cadia and Catachan can both reroll number of shots (catachan naturally, cadia with an order), tallarn can deepstrike tanks and ignore the -1 to hit for heavy weapons, and Valhallan tanks pretend that they have double their wounds. Cadians and vostroyans can use stratagems to increase their accuracy. Cadians all have a built-in reroll 1s so long as they didn't move and catachan can reroll 1s with SGT Harker nearby.

[BaronBanana]

The idea of a Tallarn Armoured Fist column sounds pretty funny with deep striking Russes and ignoring the -1 to hit sounds a lot how I want to throw tanks at people, though I'm still torn between Tallarn and Cadia.  Mostly because of how I want to build the actual tanks.  Can you magnetize sponsons?  I've never built a Russ kit before

[HallofStovokor]

The idea of a Tallarn Armoured Fist column sounds pretty funny with deep striking Russes and ignoring the -1 to hit sounds a lot how I want to throw tanks at people, though I'm still torn between Tallarn and Cadia. Mostly because of how I want to build the actual tanks. Can you magnetize sponsons? I've never built a Russ kit before

There's no need. You can slot weapons in and out of your sponsons and hull. You must bring a hull weapon, but you don't need to slot weapons into your sponsons. I recommend building the sponsons, and not gluing in any weapons. You can put in weapons that make sense for what you want, or none at all. The beauty of our hobby is that you can customize your list to whatever degree you want regardless of the army you're playing.

[duz_]

Magnetising guard vehicles you say?

Well don't worry the local Commissariat has you covered! :tu:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297605-tutorial-magnetisation/

[BaronBanana]

As for baneblade chassis, I really like the Shadowsword, Stormlord, and Baneblade.  Shadowsword seems like the best generalist one, but what are the professional opinions?

[Halfpint100]

The baneblade is the best generalist, due to the volume and variety of guns. The shadowsword is a 'point and vaporise' gun and will kill most big things in a single volley on average. Storm lord transports a lot and has a tonne if shots. Haven't had much experience with the others so can't help there.

[NatBrannigan]

As much as I don't think Guard need the boost, the specialist detachments from Vigilus book 1 are very useful., and there's something for everyone there.

 

Not sure you'll make many friends using them since Guard are already strong and then got the best special detachments but each to their own!

[HallofStovokor]

As much as I don't think Guard need the boost, the specialist detachments from Vigilus book 1 are very useful., and there's something for everyone there.

 

Not sure you'll make many friends using them since Guard are already strong and then got the best special detachments but each to their own!

GSC got a pretty good specialist detachment too. But I'm not going to lie vigilus was kind to the guard. We have 2 very strong specialist detachments for every regiment (emperor's wrath and fist), one that's great for catachan (conclave), one that makes steel legion a viable regiment (blade), and one that gives scions a turn 1 deepstrike again (tempestus drop force).

[BaronBanana]

As much as I don't think Guard need the boost, the specialist detachments from Vigilus book 1 are very useful., and there's something for everyone there.

 

Not sure you'll make many friends using them since Guard are already strong and then got the best special detachments but each to their own!

 

 

I haven't seen those yet, but I don't like very many armies, so I'm not too worried about not making friends lol.

 

Question for Tallarn jank - Three Valkyries with Rocket Pods and Heavy bolters in ambush: Too janky or just decent enough?

[Yorkston]

 

As much as I don't think Guard need the boost, the specialist detachments from Vigilus book 1 are very useful., and there's something for everyone there.

 

Not sure you'll make many friends using them since Guard are already strong and then got the best special detachments but each to their own!

 

 

I haven't seen those yet, but I don't like very many armies, so I'm not too worried about not making friends lol.

 

Question for Tallarn jank - Three Valkyries with Rocket Pods and Heavy bolters in ambush: Too janky or just decent enough?

 

 

Valkyries do not get the <Regiment> keyword sadly, so they will always eat the -1 hit penalty on everything but the pods.  Don't use Valks as gunships, they are expensive and not very good at it.  Valks are for paratrooper shenanigans, with the guns as a fringe bonus.  Grav-chute insertion is one of, if not the only, methods remaining to "deep strike" units on turn 1, and can do it within 9".  Throwing dudes out of the plane counts as a disembark even though it happens after the plane moves, which means the passengers still get to take their normal move afterwards.  The end result is the ability to take any infantry unit and get it 3" away from an enemy.  Some fun options include 4 bullgryn, a pile of flamers, melta vets, or a bunch of detpack weapon specialists.  Expect 1-2 models to faceplant and die though.

 

If you want an actual gunship, use the Vulture with the twin punisher cannons.

[BaronBanana]

 

 

As much as I don't think Guard need the boost, the specialist detachments from Vigilus book 1 are very useful., and there's something for everyone there.

 

Not sure you'll make many friends using them since Guard are already strong and then got the best special detachments but each to their own!

 

 

I haven't seen those yet, but I don't like very many armies, so I'm not too worried about not making friends lol.

 

Question for Tallarn jank - Three Valkyries with Rocket Pods and Heavy bolters in ambush: Too janky or just decent enough?

 

 

Valkyries do not get the <Regiment> keyword sadly, so they will always eat the -1 hit penalty on everything but the pods.  Don't use Valks as gunships, they are expensive and not very good at it.  Valks are for paratrooper shenanigans, with the guns as a fringe bonus.  Grav-chute insertion is one of, if not the only, methods remaining to "deep strike" units on turn 1, and can do it within 9".  Throwing dudes out of the plane counts as a disembark even though it happens after the plane moves, which means the passengers still get to take their normal move afterwards.  The end result is the ability to take any infantry unit and get it 3" away from an enemy.  Some fun options include 4 bullgryn, a pile of flamers, melta vets, or a bunch of detpack weapon specialists.  Expect 1-2 models to faceplant and die though.

 

If you want an actual gunship, use the Vulture with the twin punisher cannons.

 

 

Oh man, I did not see that, that seems significantly less fun.  I do think Tallarn is how I want to play IG, just gun loaded Russes and ambush seems very funny

[Halfpint100]

The strat has been faqed to allow only 1 vehicle unit out of the 3 ambushing (but that does mean a squad of 3 russes)

[BaronBanana]

Saw that, 3 demolisher/executioner tanks coming off the side seems pretty fun. Thanks for the replies!

[Feral_80]

The Tallarn ambush on the LR is quite wasted. Any LR is only good because it can fire twice. The stratagem prevents that, so you pay 3 CP for a mediocre shooting with 3 expensive models which also skip a turn (in total: 3 lost shooting sessions).

 

You'll want to use Hellhounds instead with that stratagem.

[HallofStovokor]

You can use a maxed squad of bullgryns in a chimera with a priest and give them Emperor's Blade. That way you can ambush your bullgryns in a chimera and the have them exit the chimera and get a short charge. It's a lot of points invested into the tactic, but it will work.

[BaronBanana]

The hellhound thing sounds pretty funny as well. I'm not a fan of ogryns, they look absolutely hideous