Ishagu Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Topic.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Like legally? Or effectively? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Yes, I believe so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 Well it's puzzling because it's in the Index, and according to GW all Index units are still legal. It's also in the open play section of Chapter Approved 2017. It's the only chapter unique Landraider variant found in both books, and I don't believe that CA 2017 invalidates the index entry. CA 2017 is a strange one as it's no longer sold. Now, if I own the index and the codex, alongside CA 2018, what indication is there that the unit can't be run in all games? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Sounds like a question for the GW rules team, I think. In particular, it'd be useful to find out what happens with the rules in CA2017 when the book is no longer sold. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Sounds like a question for the GW rules team, I think. In particular, it'd be useful to find out what happens with the rules in CA2017 when the book is no longer sold. Iirc they've answered that before the release of CA17. The rules stay valid and if you want to use them you gotta buy the book before it's sold out. Only the point changes inside get invalidated by the release of a new CA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Index units are still legal, but does that necessarily mean "match play" legal? I agree with Casman, I recall when the datasheet came out it was for funsies only. I remember this clearly because I preordered the sprues and was most assuredly going to use it with my Ultra's until the bad news came out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 "Sold out" is a weird thing to be considering in the age of digital distribution, too. I wonder why they don't have the ebook versions still available? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 Sounds like a question for the GW rules team, I think. In particular, it'd be useful to find out what happens with the rules in CA2017 when the book is no longer sold. Iirc they've answered that before the release of CA17. The rules stay valid and if you want to use them you gotta buy the book before it's sold out. Only the point changes inside get invalidated by the release of a new CA. So it's NOT restricted to open play only? lol This is a bit annoying. The unit isn't even that competitive. I was thinking of putting one together for fun. The CA2017 rules might stay valid, but I'm not using them. I'm using the Index entry and the updated costs in CA2018 (It does list the Terminus with a point value) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 Sorry, Prot or Casman, could you move this topic to the official rules section if possible? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I don't know if the OR rules gurus would tell us anything different - the most up-to-date rules are in CA2017, so those are technically the rules for use in 40k. I think falling back to the Index rules in this case would be a "house rule" thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Sounds like a question for the GW rules team, I think. In particular, it'd be useful to find out what happens with the rules in CA2017 when the book is no longer sold. Iirc they've answered that before the release of CA17. The rules stay valid and if you want to use them you gotta buy the book before it's sold out. Only the point changes inside get invalidated by the release of a new CA. So it's NOT restricted to open play only? lol This is a bit annoying. The unit isn't even that competitive. I was thinking of putting one together for fun. The CA2017 rules might stay valid, but I'm not using them. I'm using the Index entry and the updated costs in CA2018 (It does list the Terminus with a point value) Not sure how you got to this conclusion from my post. If anything it's an argument pro open play only. That being said I'm in camp "ask GW" as it's the first and only case of an Index datasheet getting moved to some weird open play make your own unit rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 I have asked them. God know when/if they will respond. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Terminus Ultra isn't in the Codex, and Chapter Approved is not a Codex, therefore you use the Index rules as per the below flowchart from GW. Index rules are matched play legal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 And there you have it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Terminus Ultra isn't in the Codex, and Chapter Approved is not a Codex, therefore you use the Index rules as per the below flowchart from GW. Index rules are matched play legal. I think we all know this chart. If the question were that simple to answer it would've been answered already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 Did CA2017 ever truly overwrite the Index entry? The other open play only Landraiders had no point costs. Either way it's no longer published. Does an FAQ exist to state that the flowchart doesn't apply in all cases? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Did CA2017 ever truly overwrite the Index entry? That's the question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morovir Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I would say that an Ultramarines army can use a Terminus Ultra for matched play, as they have access to it via the Index, but all other chapters who gained access to it via Chapter Approved can only use it for open play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gederas Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Did CA2017 ever truly overwrite the Index entry? That's the question. Iirc, the only time Chapter Approved overwrites an Index entry is if it's an UPDATED Data-sheet, like how the Renegade Knight and Intercessors have. CA2017 has an exact, 1 to 1 copy & paste of the Index datasheet of Terminus Ultra. So.... Imo, the Index Datasheet is legal for Matched Play. I would say that an Ultramarines army can use a Terminus Ultra for matched play, as they have access to it via the Index, but all other chapters who gained access to it via Chapter Approved can only use it for open play. Yes, that's also a good point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I think we all know this chart. If the question were that simple to answer it would've been answered already. It's a simple question with a simple answer based on the information we've already been given to resolve these kinds of questions. Did CA2017 ever truly overwrite the Index entry? That's the question. We have to assume things follow the normal rules unless we are told that they do not. The flowchart on which datasheets to use is from GW design studio, so is a "ruling" on the subject. That flowchart tells us that because there isn't a Terminus Ultra Datasheet in the Codex, we use the one in the index. CA2017 describes the Land Raider datasheets (including Terminus Ultra) as "examples we have created ourselves" using "guidelines on how to write open play datasheets for simple Land Raider conversions". Not as new datasheets that overrule existing ones. For comparison, consider Chapter Approved 2018, which explicitly states that the new datasheets for Intercessors, Daemons etc "replace those published in earlier publications." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 I think the fact that the 2018 edition explicitly states it replaces the existing datasheets it makes it more clear. Ok, thanks everyone. I shall build a Terminus Ultra. It will be dead turn 1 against any Castellan but at least it will look cool lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Surely if it has a points entry in CA 2018, it can be used for matched play? You don't need points for Narrative or Open, so what would be the point of it having a cost? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher956 Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 For match play take the stance of can a NEW player get hold of the rules. The index is available but CA2017 isn’t therefore the index is legal yet CA2017 isn’t .. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 The index is available but CA2017 isn’t therefore the index is legal yet CA2017 isn’t .. That's not how things go. GW already said that all the rules in CA17 are still viable. It's just a case of "too bad if you missed out on it". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354706-is-the-terminus-ultra-for-open-play-only/#findComment-5281521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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