Lord Kallozar Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Hey is it possible to have a faction of space marines that neither identify themselves as chaos or imperial and will fight against the imperium and fight against chaos, wanting to bring their own rule and order to the universe? Could they use the warp as a tool to aid them in their conquest but never give themselves to the warp powers in terms of worship, only used as a tool to fight chaos and the imperium alike? Could it also be possible that this “neutral” force will sometimes even ally with the imperium or chaos on occasion only if it fit with their own purpose? Many thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Sure but they'll have huge problems to get their hands on supplies and stuff and probably won't last long. Many Renegade warbands turn chaos because that's the only way for them to keep existing, not because they actually like the whole chaos stuff ... and once you make the first step it's not long before you make the second and then the third and then the fourth. Before long you are fully worshipping one or more chaos gods. That's how things go in the 40k universe. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5281982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axineton Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 If I remember correctly, the Soul Drinkers did this unwittingly in the books but my head is a bit fuzzy as it was early last year I read the omnibuses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5281984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearson73 Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 I think this how many warbands turn renegade, they see the Imperium as failing/corrupt/whatever, and decide that they can do it better/more equally/whatever and secede. I also think that there are a fair few canon warbands that don't worship chaos but merely view it as a tool (Night Lords and Iron Warriors, I think). Others may have other examples, but yes, what you've outlined is certainly possible, both in terms of the logic and what GW have shown us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5281985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RolandTHTG Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 They do worship a specific minor warp god, but the Sons of Malice are dedicated to destroying the imperium and chaos equally. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Malice Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinespider Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Plenty of chaos marines don't consider themselves worshipers. The Black Legion, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors all generally consider chaos to be a tool rather than something worthy of worship. Whether they're actually independent or just deluding themselves is up to you, of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumah Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Ashen Claws perhaps? I don't know a lot about them, but I know they're not Imperial and they don't seem to be Chaos aligned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 It's definitely plausible for a chapter to go renegade but still hate Chaos, but as sfPanzer points out, there is a practical limit to how long they can survive whilst being completely neutral. Sooner or later you'd think they would align themselves with a Chaos warband in service of a goal they can't complete on their own, which is where the slippery slope begins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 I'm exploring this with my homebrew chapter, the Spectral Sicarii. My high level view is that they are loyal to their brethren because of the fraternal bond of being an Adeptus Astartes, however they don't prescribe to the Cult of the Emperor. This obviously causes issues with zealots like the Black Templars but other chapters may not care as much (Like the Raven Guard that they succeeded from). They also realize that this is something that they have to keep close to their chests and not blatantly proclaim else they risk utter destruction as 'heretics'. Which leads to their view of Chaos and they are completely opposed to it. My elevator speech for them is "they'll put a bolt round into Abaddon's head just as soon as they would the Emperor's." They have an issue with the leadership of the Imperium, not the soldiers who fight in it. They recognize that many are fighting on one side or another because they have no choice and it's the only way for them to survive. I've also got lore planned for when I get my knight army built up and it allies with my chapter. That knight house will have been shunned by the Imperium for failure in a war and left for dead and will hate the Imperium, especially the Ecclesiarchy, but they'll recognize that some soldiers are unfortunately just tools to be used by a cruel system in an even crueler universe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 I'm exploring this with my homebrew chapter, the Spectral Sicarii. My high level view is that they are loyal to their brethren because of the fraternal bond of being an Adeptus Astartes, however they don't prescribe to the Cult of the Emperor. This obviously causes issues with zealots like the Black Templars but other chapters may not care as much (Like the Raven Guard that they succeeded from). They also realize that this is something that they have to keep close to their chests and not blatantly proclaim else they risk utter destruction as 'heretics'. Which leads to their view of Chaos and they are completely opposed to it. My elevator speech for them is "they'll put a bolt round into Abaddon's head just as soon as they would the Emperor's." They have an issue with the leadership of the Imperium, not the soldiers who fight in it. They recognize that many are fighting on one side or another because they have no choice and it's the only way for them to survive. I've also got lore planned for when I get my knight army built up and it allies with my chapter. That knight house will have been shunned by the Imperium for failure in a war and left for dead and will hate the Imperium, especially the Ecclesiarchy, but they'll recognize that some soldiers are unfortunately just tools to be used by a cruel system in an even crueler universe. Black Templars are an exception. Most Marine chapters don't worship the Emperor as god either. No need for them to hide anything if that's all that's going on. However if they'd actually think about potentially killing the Emperor if there's a chance then yeah they are definitely Heretics and no fraternal bond or whatever would save them if known as they are clearly enemies. The enemy of my enemy is often also an enemy, not a friend. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 This is kind of what started the Badab war :) So Astral Claws. The Crimson Slaughter don't necessarily worship any chaos god...they are just interested in ending their curse...There are an unknown number of them who have returned to their home world (and Crimson Sabre heraldry) and reject Kranon's chaos undivided style. The Marines Malevolent are dangerously close to being cut off by the imperium...they seem to hate everything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exilyth Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Finding one of the old and forgotten human colonies far outside the empire would be one way a 'chaos undecided' warband could survive without detection/destruction. They would then ofc. face other problems sooner or later (e.g. xenos of species known and unknown, other warbands settling in/on nearby colonies). If such a warband is really lucky, they could even take hold of a forge world with the means of producing astartes gear but no astartes garrison. Highly unlikely, but could happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephaniah Adriyen Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 One word. Malal. That is all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 The Purge, they hate ALL life... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 The Ashen Claws, as previously mentioned, are a pretty good example. The book, The Outer Dark, describes them in good detail, including their relationship with the Carcharadons and their supply situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 This is kind of what started the Badab war So Astral Claws. The Crimson Slaughter don't necessarily worship any chaos god...they are just interested in ending their curse...There are an unknown number of them who have returned to their home world (and Crimson Sabre heraldry) and reject Kranon's chaos undivided style. The Marines Malevolent are dangerously close to being cut off by the imperium...they seem to hate everything. Huron did nothing wrong... Krash Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinstryfe Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Chaos is a very slippery slope. While some renegades claim they only use it and don't worship it, the presence of possessed and daemon princes in their midst seems to indicate that chaos may not 100% care whether you think you're worshipping it or not. I'd imagine a renegade Chapter would be fine harnessing chaos, up until the point where things were no longer fine in hindsight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 My point of since Cawl opened the freezer everything goes. Yes it's possible. Roll a renegade warband. Don't use possessed or stuff with Daemon rules. Lots of cultists. Raiders/Corsairs. They dont need to hide in a warp storm. The galaxy is a huge place. There was a Blackstone fortress in the middle of a ship graveyard. You warband could be in the edge of civilization on nihilus, they would never be found. Supply? They raid and steal. They make alliances of convenience. I disagree with panzer. They can last a long time. It sure can't be more ridiculous than having hundreds of thousands of super space marines in stasis for 10 millenia. That's your benchmark. Go wild. Your imagination is the limit. Ashen Claws still exist after 10k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 My point of since Cawl opened the freezer everything goes. Yes it's possible. Roll a renegade warband. Don't use possessed or stuff with Daemon rules. Lots of cultists. Raiders/Corsairs. They dont need to hide in a warp storm. The galaxy is a huge place. There was a Blackstone fortress in the middle of a ship graveyard. You warband could be in the edge of civilization on nihilus, they would never be found. Supply? They raid and steal. They make alliances of convenience. I disagree with panzer. They can last a long time. It sure can't be more ridiculous than having hundreds of thousands of super space marines in stasis for 10 millenia. That's your benchmark. Go wild. Your imagination is the limit. Ashen Claws still exist after 10k. This 100% well said Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Lightstar Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Short of any direct contradiction that I've missed in the background, I'm pretty sure this is a job for Lord Cypher and The Fallen. They have access to either Chaos or (non-Dark Angel) Imperial allies or either as opponents and have no clearly stated objectives. Rik Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 In the rules. There's no reason that in a galaxy with billions of undiscovered planets that we can't make our own Narrative. Just because GW has written about Cypher doesn't mean that's the only story like that. Sete is bang on - we can forge whatever narrative we want. In a galaxy as wide and crazy as the one in 40k I think it's very close-minded and limiting to say it's not possible if GW hasn't alluded to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtle Discord Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Note, the idea that a splinter group such as this would have a hard time keeping themselves supplied is easily solved if they have access to a Forge World sympathetic to the perspective of the Warband; if keeping them properly supplied and not being forced to using piracy and/or raiding is really a sticking point. The Forge World where my not-Adeptus Mechcanicus originate from consider themselves autonomous, but they cooperate just enough to avoid serious scrutiny so they can be left to their own devices... and provide arms and provisions to whoever can properly compensate for them, through appropriate channels/agents as to remain obscure. The fiction of my Forge World is intentional in that they have two (perhaps more) very distinct 'faces'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Triszin Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 You could do a marine hard line imperial truthers. Who attempt to use tech to kill anything in the immaterium. Twist. Their chapter master is ur-205 A man of iron, who also runs the forges and automated production of their equipmemt Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Would such a renegade chapter need to survive a long time? I mean, maybe the narrative is one of a doomed blaze of glory - they know there are no reinforcements coming, and they'll be wiped out within the next 50 years tops. But as far as we're concerned, 50 years is a lifetime of gaming. You could play out the entire fate of the chapter in real time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 You could do a marine hard line imperial truthers. Who attempt to use tech to kill anything in the immaterium. Twist. Their chapter master is ur-205 A man of iron, who also runs the forges and automated production of their equipmemt If there is one there could be more... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354730-a-warband-despising-the-imperium-and-chaos/#findComment-5282760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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