Havocs vs Predators

[Furnace Lord]

This isn't about rotor gun Havocs since I feel they're kind of their own thing. I'm curious how people feel about all lascannon preds or autocannon and heavy bolter preds vs equivalent Havoc choices. I do play Black Legion so not having legion traits on vehicles isn't so much of a con for them.

[Prot]

I’ve been negative on Preds for a while.

 

Take away the damage scale, and the lack of move and shoot, or the difficulty getting cover..... just look at the startegems and I just find it really difficult to overcome that difference.

 

That said I still really like Landraiders... and moreso than Repulsors. Even though that’s not part of the question, I think the new Havocs are just that much better with the new rule making it an even wider divide to me.

 

I admit some people do really well with Preds, and there’s an argument to made for how well either unit fits into your list.

[Panzer]

Predators are only worth it if you have plenty of armour in your list so your opponent has lots of targets for his anti-armour. The new terrain piece also helps by giving them a 5++. If you don't plan to field many vehicles then Havocs are definitely better since we can buff infantry quite a bit via cacophony etc.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah I second that, Preds just aren't all that impressive. The case can be made that yes they are tougher than havocs, and especially now that havocs can only be 5 strong tops the predator can take a lot more damage, but I feel like that's all it has going for it. As a vehicle it's harder to hide out of LoS or in cover, havocs now seem more mobile to me given they can move and shoot heavy weapons, and the biggest point in favor of havocs to me is stratagems. For predators, pretty much all you get is killshot which is eh, you need to take 3 predators just to make it work, they need to all be near each other and they all need to be alive. Havocs on the other hand have great stratagems, veterans of the long war and endless cacophony are solid for them regardless of what weapon you have. Lastly havocs also benefit from legion traits, not always useful but if you're running say alpha legion it's a nice benefit. 

[Furnace Lord]

I haven't tried Preds yet but I'm certainly seeing the weaknesses now. For non-rotor cannon Havocs what do you consider the best loadout now with the new rules? I was actually thinking 4 missile launchers but I don't know if it's better to go big with the lascannon. Are autocannons or heavy bolters worth a look or better in normal marine squads?

[Subtle Discord]

For 5 pts more base cost (if you've for Index: Forces of Chaos) you can take a Hellforged Predator that has many more weapon options and the ability to munch on close-combat kills to potentially regain wounds. I've always had a soft spot for the Auto + Las Cannon setup, but I agree that it's really best in a list that has enough armour that it becomes hard for the opponent to choose targets; as a general rule of thumb, one of almost anything is a target, two is a threat, and three is a real danger. It's been so long since I played, it's a shame to hear that vehicles like the Predator can't move-and-shoot Heavy Weapons without penalty anymore.

 

Edit: Are the points costs of the new Havocs known yet? The humble Predator might stack up well beside them if the points difference is significant enough. It's not nearly as glamorous mind you, but Auto Cannons (and the Pred's are 2D3 shots with D3) and Las Cannons can still get work done. In fact, just how unassuming they are beside some of the new hotness might have them get ignored by an opponent. *Sigh* Can you tell I have several Predators that I don't want to shelve?

[micahwc]

I’ve had a lot of successs running 8 Havoks with either missiles or lascannons as Alpha Legion. They have a reputation for being unkillable.

[Deadass]

If you are definetely planning on bringing along tanks, I'd go for a Hellforged Sicaran with dual lascannons. Its autocannon can move and shoot due to it being an Assault weapon, it's a lot more reliable concerning damage output and it can regain lost wounds via slain models in cc aswell. Plus, it looks way cooler.

[Subtle Discord]

More points for not that many more Wounds at the same Toughness, but yes, it makes up for it in the weapons it brings, and it has no penalty to hit Fly targets and extra AP on the 6. Daaaamn, I almost forgot I have one of those, since my Chaos has been sitting on the shelf for so long. Still tempting to flank it with some Predators, if only for how nice it would look.

[Panzer]

I haven't tried Preds yet but I'm certainly seeing the weaknesses now. For non-rotor cannon Havocs what do you consider the best loadout now with the new rules? I was actually thinking 4 missile launchers but I don't know if it's better to go big with the lascannon. Are autocannons or heavy bolters worth a look or better in normal marine squads?

 

Usually Havocs take over the role of ranged anti-tank since you can deal with infantry in multiple other ways already. I definitely prefer Lascannons over Missile Launcher. It's always better to be good at one thing and leave the other thing to other units instead of being mediocre at two things.

[Skyrak Slaughterborn]

No one here has mentioned that havocs are now toughness five and can move and shoot. I think this is a real game changer for me. T5 in cover... but being able to move if things get too hot is fantastic imo. Still am yet to see the points... but i think havocs will be the new hotness

[Xenith]

No one here has mentioned that havocs are now toughness five and can move and shoot. I think this is a real game changer for me. T5 in cover... but being able to move if things get too hot is fantastic imo. Still am yet to see the points... but i think havocs will be the new hotness

 

Problem is that you're 2 T5 wounds away from losing 25% of the units firepower. The pred is just so much more durable. 

 

If those 5 havoc bodies cost 18pts each (not unrealistic for 2w and move and shoot), then 5 dudes are the same cost as a predator, which has higher T and more W, but loses move and shoot. 

[Ardaric Vaanes]

Preds have taken a real hit with the new rules update for Havocs... the Pros for both are:

 

Havocs -

 

Now T5 and can move and shoot without penalty like skyrack said

They don't struggle against multi-damage weapons

It's way easier to gain cover saves as infantry

 

Predators - 

As an Iron Warrior player, Tanks are always awesome

Killshot stratagem is brilliant (but a good opponent will always be on the lookout for it)

Preds free up your havocs to focus on other targets

 

All in all, I don't think the case should be made for one or another; both supplement one-another very well. A HB and Autocannon predator is a good dakka choice; and the hellforged variants are awesome too (and are Elites not Heavy support). In small games where both are not required, Havocs stand a better chance of surviving until the second turn.

 

Anti-vehicle in today's meta is very high since I've not been to a tournament in years where there haven't been knights aplenty... 

[Xenith]

 

 

Now T5 and can move and shoot without penalty like skyrack said

They can take 'ablative' wounds in the form of extra squaddies and don't struggle against multi-damage weapons

It's way easier to gain cover saves as infantry

 

 

Where are you seeing this? I thought with the move to T5 they became a max 5 model unit?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You're correct Xenith, they're a max of five- no bullet sponges allowed.

[Ardaric Vaanes]

You're correct Xenith, they're a max of five- no bullet sponges allowed.

 

 

 

 

 

Now T5 and can move and shoot without penalty like skyrack said

They can take 'ablative' wounds in the form of extra squaddies and don't struggle against multi-damage weapons

It's way easier to gain cover saves as infantry

 

 

Where are you seeing this? I thought with the move to T5 they became a max 5 model unit?

 

 

Nooooo!!! I hadn't seen that!

 

I stand corrected; back to Predators I go then!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You know what Predators will probably like having? An invulnerable save! So don't forget to buy your Noctilith Crown today!

[/cheesysalesmanvoice]

[techsoldaten]

The debate about Predators versus Havocs has changed, straight up unit comparisons might not be as relevant anymore with the loss of ablative wounds and new rules.

 

Triple laspreds have been a staple of my 8th edition lists. In practice, games usually go like this - first turn, one goes down and another takes some damage. If you want to get any mileage out of them, they need supporting units with lascannons to destroy your opponent's long range threats right away - CSMs with lascannons, Helbrutes with lascannons, Defilers with lascannons, etc. Then you have shooting supremacy from range and can bully opponents in later turns.

 

T5 Havocs that can move and shoot without penalty are great on paper, but the lack of ablative wounds means they need some protection. Sure, you can put them in cover, but each wound still reduces the unit's performance by 20%. Your opponent is not going to ignore this fact, they are vulnerable to a lot of weapons that don't do much against Predators. They are going to die faster in most situations, possibly a full turn before a Predator would. Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights and Orks will have no problem picking them off.

 

Tactically, the fair comparison is between Predators and Havocs + twin Combi-Bolter Rhinos. The Rhinos make up for the lack of ablative wounds and can always fire 8 Bolter shots to boot. You have a vehicle that can offer LOS blocking protection in exchange for losing a turn of shooting getting them into position. You can put 2 units of Havocs into a single Rhino, so the cost can go down with scale.

 

That said, the new detachments compete with Predators and Havocs for offensive output. Something I noticed - for most of the new Detachments, there's a good build available at around 800 points. Certainly there is for Host Raptoral, Bringers of Despair, Soulforged Pack, Daemonkin Ritualists and Legion of Skulls. Each of these is a close-range assault detachment capable of dishing out a ton of wounds each turn and most of them have a good delivery method (innate speed or deep strike.)

 

Along with that, I can't see why Imperial players are not going to load up on Assassins in the new meta. I've been seeing 3 Assassins in most games recently, they are too good to ignore. Plus the new Primaris snipers, pure nastiness to fight against. There's going to need to be a method to take them out and big guns are not the way to do it.

 

So I'm questioning the logic of long-range support in a shock-assault army. While Havocs and Predators could certainly have their place, it's hard to see them as a 'hammer' when I could drop an Altar and 60 4+ invul Bloodletters mid-field to wipe out a third of my opponent's army in one turn. I'm looking at how to support those guys and a big-gun unit might just become expensive chaff that goes away before the big threat presents itself.

 

Dunno. Going to take some time to process the options available. But straight up comparisons between Predators and Havocs don't make that much sense anymore, they both have a lot of guns but one is sturdier and one is more effective with run and gun. The real question is which one fits in a modern Chaos army and I suspect (in most situations) it's going to be Havocs. But it won't be that many.

[Xenith]

 

 

Dunno. Going to take some time to process the options available. But straight up comparisons between Predators and Havocs don't make that much sense anymore, they both have a lot of guns but one is sturdier and one is more effective with run and gun. The real question is which one fits in a modern Chaos army and I suspect (in most situations) it's going to be Havocs. But it won't be that many.

Since you say you need multiple other lascannons to support the preds with lascannons otherwise they die immediately...I'd say you should go with havocs.

[techsoldaten]

 

 

Dunno. Going to take some time to process the options available. But straight up comparisons between Predators and Havocs don't make that much sense anymore, they both have a lot of guns but one is sturdier and one is more effective with run and gun. The real question is which one fits in a modern Chaos army and I suspect (in most situations) it's going to be Havocs. But it won't be that many.

Since you say you need multiple other lascannons to support the preds with lascannons otherwise they die immediately...I'd say you should go with havocs.

 

 

If I could put more than 3 Heavy Support options into a Battalion, I would. The HQ tax for more detachments is too much when you're squeezing points for massed lascannons.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You should be stacking your HS in a Spearhead Detachment anyway?

[The Yncarne]

As a Thousand Sons player I don’t have many other options for anti-tank than preds or helbrutes/dreads to a lesser extent. I agree with others that one needs more anti-tank elsewhere to maximize predator effectiveness.

 

I still prefer all infantry lists in this edition so would go with havocs if I played the main Chaos faction. I am jealous that the main book has so many anti-tank options, including the rapier battery from Forgeworld.

[Mallios]

You should be stacking your HS in a Spearhead Detachment anyway?

If you run the FW Hellforged Preds, they are elites

[techsoldaten]

 

You should be stacking your HS in a Spearhead Detachment anyway?

If you run the FW Hellforged Preds, they are elites

 

 

Re: Spearhead - more CPs in a Battalion and no HQ tax.

 

Re: more Preds - I've run lists with Hellforged Preds bringing the total to 6. Have also played lists where I swapped out the Preds for Scorpius Whirlwinds.

 

Both variants are technically more powerful. The problem is people, it's better to keep things simple. Spending 30 minutes explaining what I brought and why I am allowed to bring it sucks. Playing against someone who sees me as ultra-competitive / a cheater sucks.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You can bring more than one detachment? I routinely have a Battalion for Troop support & CPs, with my damage dealers stacked in a Spearhead and Vanguard.