Haarken Worldclaimer: A second look

[Sonoftherubric21]

So with the release of Ablaze and the detachments all coming to light I think its a good idea to have another look at Haarken and his uses, along with what this release has done for him. 

 

So the obvious focus here is the detachment "Host Raptorial" which as we can all imagine combos pretty well with Haarken. Though please note for this it will require a second Lord with jump pack or a Sorcerer with jump pack to gain the Warlord trait of +2 inch charges for jump pack units within 6 of your warlord. This is incredibly important for a list focusing on Haarken and his raptor buddies. 

The size of Raptor units (max 15) is actually quite useful in this situation as it combos with Merciless Killers strategem (1CP, +1 attack if you outnumber your opponent in melee) and a 7 inch charge, combined with a Mark of Khorne Icon for a re-roll all but guarantees making the charge on the drop with Haarken allowing for easy re-rolls and standing a good chance of making his own charge.  The other use is to make the Host Raptorial detachment a World Eaters detachment.  Either of these strategies work well with 3 swings per raptor in melee with all but a guaranteed charge on the turn they land. Blow 3 more CP for an additional round of Move up + Swing and you could very likely grind quite a bit off the table. 

 

The two strategems have uses certainly, Vicious Descent giving full re-rolls the entire turn to a unit means you could land, plug a target with plasma, then charge into a target in the same turn dealing substantial damage without need of a baby-sitting lord or Haarken. The combo LD Terror strategem is nifty easily becoming a -3 base before any kills on a unit (strat, haarken bubble, raptor engagement) but only when it is applicable, against some armies its useless so its a "neat" thing at best. 

 

This detachment of course also makes Warp Talons (more or less) worth taking given they can land and reliably get a charge off, though for me personally they are an afterthought in list design due to their incredibly high cost. Ignoring overwatch has some potential as well though 2 attacks per model at a 24 ppm is hard to swallow.

 

What does everyone think of this? I think it has some merit and might be pretty decent on the table especially if you put more CP into it (Which honestly shouldn't be an issue for black legion armies anymore with refund warlord trait + abbadon with duel-battalions, or the Hetetical 17 if you are so inclined) 

[Closet Skeleton]

Host Raptoral is great for Raptors and Warptalons but Haarken is still meh. I think you're better off with Emperor's Children or World Eaters Raptors.

[Panzer]

A Flawless Host Host Raptorial detachment would be interesting as well since they'd get an extra attack on 6s (two against Imperium units) which can be buffed via psychic power.

[Sception]

My problem with him is that, even if I'm running black legion to start (which I would be, personally, just too much use out of strats and warlord traits), Haarken is still my third choice support hero for the formation due to his locked warlord trait, coming in after one jump hero with the formation trait for +2" charge and a second with the BL 'veteran raider' trait for a 'withdraw & charge' bubble.  At least one of those will be a lord to re-roll 1's (on both shooting and assault, important for raptors with their quality special weapon options), so Haarken's re-roll attacks in melee, while still nice to have, are somewhat reduced in value as well.  If those rerolls applied to raptor shooting attacks as well, or even the melee attacks of warp talons, I'd find him a lot more interesting.

[Jukkiz]

If you want full use of Haarken, you better use him as the killstealer of sorts. His wargear is gimmick that demands he gets the kills.

[techsoldaten]

Host Raptoral is a very intriguing detachment, I'd really like to find uses for it. But how do Raptors compare with Bloodletters?

 

Last night, I deep-struck 60 Bloodletters. In a single turn, they killed a Knight and bracketed a second one. They went on to eat about a third of an Adeptus Mechanicus detachment while my CSMs cleared the rest of the table.

 

Those Bloodletters cost about 500 points. The detachment described in the OP has 2 HQs and multiple Raptor units. Even if everything is min-sized with no specials, it's going to cost more to field.

 

What does that detachment provide that you can't get with a Bloodletter Bomb? Bolter shots? We can talk about morale shenanigans and better saving throws, but isn't the point of an assault unit to drop in and shock / sabotage your opponent? How important are those saves?

 

For that matter, think about 3 min-sized squads of Terminators deep struck with Abaddon. Their combi-bolters, on average, are going to do more wounds per turn than plasma Raptors, they have better saves, plus you have Abaddon right there for morale immunity, full rerolls to hit, and melee superiority.

 

Host Raptoral has it's place but the offense does not scale well compared to other options. While it's nice that they have some avenues to make charges more reliable, you are really committing your army to Raptors / Warp Talons when you go this route. I'm looking forward to seeing how people make them work in their lists, it's just not obvious to me right now.

[Prot]

I think some of the detachments are easier to take advantage of. It feels like Raptoral is an 'all in' kind of strategy to me. If you're going with Haarken and Raptors, and a Lord/Sorc, I think 5 Warp Talons multicharging everything they can is part of the bargain. It's the only time that Warp Talons will truly have a strong chance to make an impact.

 

Maybe this is just because I play in such a shooty meta (Aside from GSC ). I just see so much overwatch.

[Sception]

Host raptorial seems more about making the most of cool units that you wanted to use anyway for aesthetic reasons.  It wouldn't be my first choice if I were just trying to craft an optimized list to win games.  But if that were my primary concern, I'm not sure I'd be playing CSMs at all, even after the update.

[Panzer]

I agree. If you want to use Raptors/Warp Talons, use the Host, but if you want to win you probably don't want to use them at all even with Host.

 

Same goes for Haarken by extension of course.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Host raptorial seems more about making the most of cool units that you wanted to use anyway for aesthetic reasons.  It wouldn't be my first choice if I were just trying to craft an optimized list to win games.  But if that were my primary concern, I'm not sure I'd be playing CSMs at all, even after the update.

 

But doesn't that line of reasoning work on every codex? There is no such thing as 1 "optimized" list given that every top-tier list I see is some form of soup. 

 

I have done pretty well in games with raptors pre-host but those were all "pop and drop" plasmacide squads. Cheap enough not to care when they do but do enough damage to be a significant threat on the turn they land. 

 

 

I think some of the detachments are easier to take advantage of. It feels like Raptoral is an 'all in' kind of strategy to me. If you're going with Haarken and Raptors, and a Lord/Sorc, I think 5 Warp Talons multicharging everything they can is part of the bargain. It's the only time that Warp Talons will truly have a strong chance to make an impact.

 

Maybe this is just because I play in such a shooty meta (Aside from GSC ). I just see so much overwatch.

 

 

I just figured under the new Black Legion rules that they could definitely have some merit on the table given the strats and utility we now have. Though I do agree with you Prot that this is very much an "all in" design for second turn damage and the army list is made with this as the crux of the strategy, Land, Shoot, Charge. 

 

The base list I am looking at is 25 raptors. 

 

plasmacide raptor + 10/10 mans both with plasma, OR Plasmacide x2, with a 15 man raptor unit. The accompanying Hqs would be Haarken and a Sorcerer with Jetpacks. 

 

Of course that is looking like an 800 or so point module including characters, so the remaining 1200 or so goes into dedicated AT with minimal babysitting and cultists for objective holding. Maybe some havocs for scoot-n-shoot.  

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It seems we should compare the various different bomb options:

 

Host Raptorial: +charge distance trait gives them an advantage, re-roll from khorne icon

 

Bloodletter Bomb: Cheaper, squishier, but also has tools to get into melee

 

Terminators: Can blast stuff with combi weapons, but no way to boost charge distance, but can re-roll from khorne icon

 

Alpha Legion: costs a bunch of command points, but can be used with any unit. Less problem getting charge because you get to move first.And comes in turn 1. But if you go second, you get shot to pieces before you get to charge.

 

Transports: Drive up turn 1, get out and charge turn 2. Works with more units, but you're paying a lot for the transport. But it'll keep you safe!

 

Warptime: Great on a fast unit and can get it in turn 1 instead of turn 2, but if you go second you get shot off the board.

 

 

Do we have opinions on which of these is the best option? Can host raptorial actually compare with just infiltrating a bunch of alpha legion berzerkers? They cost about the same, but berzerkers have over double the killing power.

[Sception]

Re alpha legion, you have at least a -1 to be hit to help if you go second. The dark apostle also has a stacking -1 to be hit penalty that applies from start of game turn. 10 terminators with a -2 penalty on incoming shooting attacks should be pretty tough to shake.

 

Of course, then they aren't black legion, so no rerolls from abby, no BoD formation, etc.

[Panzer]

To be honest, I wouldn't even try and build a bomb with the Host. I'd use it as a utility drop for the most part. Taking a Jump Lord with Hammer doesn't hurt since it's generally a good pick and then you might just as well give him some Raptors and/or Warp Talons to drop together with him and if you do that you might just as well give the Lord the +2" charge trait so those Raptors and/or Warp Talons actually make it into melee.

However this topic is about Haarken and if you take him as well it's a bit too much of an investment for the damage output Raptors and Warp Talons offer imo.

[Cheex]

The important thing to remember about the Bloodletter Bomb is how expensive it gets in CPs. Dropping 60 Bloodletters, in squads of 20 or 30, with a character costs 7CPs (assuming you take Banners of Blood). The Host Raptorial takes 1-2CPs to do the same thing.

 

As for Haarken, he's the only way a Host Raptorial can get full hit rerolls without spending CPs, and he provides two Morale debuffs if that's your thing. Don't forget his reroll aura affects "hit rolls", not just "failed hit rolls", so he combos well with power fists.

 

So, take a Raptorial (1CP) with a field commander Chaos Lord (1CP) for the 2" charge bonus and take a big squad of Raptors with the Icon of Wrath. Give the field commander the Mark of Khorne and Talisman for rerolls to charge. Drop in, melta something important, and charge with the new Black Legion stratagem that gives bonus attacks when you outnumber the enemy.

 

Whatever's left will be at -2Ld, rolling 2D6 and picking the highest for Morale.

 

Not saying it's an amazing combination, but it makes the cool Haarken model work reasonably well.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I think the key to making Host Raptorial really shine, like Malisteen mentioned, is the one-two punch of its native Warlord Trait and Veteran Raider from Black Legion. 

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With proper positioning, you can get large force that can shoot, charge, fall back in any direction (ignoring models), and repeat. Every turn. The enemy will also lose their ability to Overwatch against it for the duration of Turn 2 and possibly Turn 3 depending on how the Warp Talon drops are staggered.

 

An experienced player will be able to guarantee local superiority on certain turns, placing the entire army against only part of the enemy force. It can even charge flyers to shut down their guns.

 

Gets even more interesting if you put bikes in for board presence and durability and then a min Red Corsair battalion for objective holding and CP battery.

 

I think it's worth a look.

[Panzer]

It can even charge flyers to shut down their guns.

 

 

Not really. Surprisingly, flyer share the FLY keyword as well so they just move away and keep shooting.

[Hellrender]

With the new codex out, is the FAQ now no longer valid? Because as far i see, Haarken has the Black Legion keyword, and not able to be in a night lords detachment.. :(

[MasterDeath]

If you want to got mass Raptors, instead of World Eaters or something, I would go Brazen Beasts. -4 DS on a to wound helps those chainswords. Or Flawless Host for just more Attacks. Wordl Eaters are so 40 018.

[Sonoftherubric21]

If you want to got mass Raptors, instead of World Eaters or something, I would go Brazen Beasts. -4 DS on a to wound helps those chainswords. Or Flawless Host for just more Attacks. Wordl Eaters are so 40 018.

 

Those are not bad options but they lose access to Vets of the Long War. Just something to keep in mind as a trade off. 

 

As all raptors work with haarken its not a particularly big issue which legion they are from but your idea is not a bad one. 

[Panzer]

With the new codex out, is the FAQ now no longer valid? Because as far i see, Haarken has the Black Legion keyword, and not able to be in a night lords detachment..

The FAQ didn't change Haarkens own keyword. It only changed that his aura affects non-Black Legion Raptors as well. So nothing changed.