What do you do with 20 CSM?

[Prot]

So another thought I’ve had is sticking with Red Corsairs. One thing I notice is a lot of online advice for renegades includes using VotLW. I don’t know if these are new Chaos players but to my knowledge Renegades never had and still don’t have access to VotLW.... unless something changed? So right up front that is a negative I tolerated a long time with Red Corsairs.

 

So assuming that us still the case the big attraction for me (and I assume others) is taking CSM. I can’t be the only one tempted by this? We already have threads on making Termies work.....

 

I guess that leads me to my question; what Legion best uses the ol’ CSM? Would you use Red Corsairs to recycle them? Or is the VoTLW too penal for you? And finally... would bother with a20 man squad?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Red Corsairs seem to be the best option for CSM. They get extra CP, and its them who has the recycle strat, not Crimson Slaughter.

 

5man squads with chain cannons are going to be a solid unit in general, but perform best for red corsairs due to CP, or alpha legion due to their trait.

 

10 man squads don't seem to have any role. They are big enough to get wrecked by morale, but not big enough to maximize stratagem use. If you are going to take more than 5, might as well take 20.

 

20 man can be useful as just a big annoying blob that's going to get in your opponents face and bog them down. They aren't particularly durable or damaging per point compared to other units, but that can change if you start stacking buffs on them, such as -1 to be hit prayer and the various god specific powers (although these are often better used on other, more elite units.) They fall into the a strange place of not being important enough to shoot as compared to your nastier units, but also not being easy to ignore due to their large number. To make them work though, they really need fearless, otherwise they do just get shot off the board. I'd generally run a 20 man unit with chainswords and just try to use it as a pressure unit.

 

So they'll work well as:

Red Corsairs: Bonus CP again, and recycle. No fearless, but between having extra CP to use fearless strat and recycling them, it'll probably work out.

Black Legion: With Abaddon, they've got fearless and re-rolls. Also can benefit from the black legion +1 attack if outnumbering stratagem.

Iron Warriors: Can get fearless from warlord trait, but otherwise inferior to the other options.

 

Beyond these cases, I don't see much going for them. Everyone else is better off using other units. Some of the renegade traits do improve CSM, but they improve other units more. For example, Brazen Beasts is nice on CSM, but you're still better off with berzerkers. Flawless host, you're better off with noise marines, etc.

 

This is deductive theoryhammer of course. I haven't tried out this stuff yet.

[Panzer]

Definitely Red Corsairs. Extra CP and you can double the value of a huge unit by re-summoning them (though it takes away from the CP you generated and it's not exactly doubled value as you can have the second unit only once the first is gone). As for VotLW, unless they changed something it shouldn't be available to Red Corsairs or any of the other Renegade warbands, however you could just take a different Legions detachment with the units you'd want to use it on and call it a day.

So yeah I'm pretty much with you. It doesn't look like any other Legion or Warband improves regular Chaos Marines much and without improvement they aren't exactly good.

[Furnace Lord]

With all the Vigilus and Codex changes, is it possible they will change renegades and give them access to VOTLW? I could see that as a little detail slipping through the cracks on all the previews and leaks.

[General Strike]

I plan a weird "soup" army.

 

Red Corsairs with two small squads of CSM and one 20 man with chainswords. Mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath.

This gives me extra CP.

Main part of the army is a Black legion army, with one Big bolter blob, and various elite choices to distract my enemy.

 

Maybe something with bikers and meltas in the red corsairs, running up the board and shooting meltas, then charging into another unit with chainswords?

[Captain_Krash]

Red Corsairs are where it's at. It makes using plain CSM worth it

 

Krash 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Night Lords can also do one or two big bricks if the rest of their units are small. The key is to have one big squad to use In Midnight Clad on, together with a combination of Sorcerer and Apostle tricks.....possibly two if you go hard into points for Sorcerers and Apostles.

 

If you want to hold a large section of table and shoot away chaff, you can make that your CSM instead of, say, 15 Raptors or 10 Terminators. It will be a smothering anvil unit that is hard to remove and kills other objective holders. The combination of shenanigans (stratagem, psychic power like Miasma or Delightful Agonies, and Dark Apostle prayer for -1 to be hit and/or 5+ Invuln) should make it durable enough that Morale is less of an issue, particularly with the presence of an Apostle, though you can just save 2 CP for when you need them. For example a Nurgle blob of this variety with Miasma, In Midnight Clad, and the darkness prayer will be -3 to hit, making Guard auto-miss under many circumstances, and none of those have range limitations, unlike the Alpha Legion's Hidden in Plain Sight, which can do something similar.

 

Alternately, you can just use the Apostle and the Stratagem on one brick and leave other more important resources for units that do more work offensively. -2 to be hit on a Ld 9 or 10 unit (if you make the Apostle your Warlord and give him Inspiring Leader you can get to 10) will still make them pretty tough to chew on.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Night Lords can also do one or two big bricks if the rest of their units are small. The key is to have one big squad to use In Midnight Clad on, together with a combination of Sorcerer and Apostle tricks.....possibly two if you go hard into points for Sorcerers and Apostles.

 

If you want to hold a large section of table and shoot away chaff, you can make that your CSM instead of, say, 15 Raptors or 10 Terminators. It will be a smothering anvil unit that is hard to remove and kills other objective holders. The combination of shenanigans (stratagem, psychic power like Miasma or Delightful Agonies, and Dark Apostle prayer for -1 to be hit and/or 5+ Invuln) should make it durable enough that Morale is less of an issue, particularly with the presence of an Apostle, though you can just save 2 CP for when you need them. For example a Nurgle blob of this variety with Miasma, In Midnight Clad, and the darkness prayer will be -3 to hit, making Guard auto-miss under many circumstances, and none of those have range limitations, unlike the Alpha Legion's Hidden in Plain Sight, which can do something similar.

 

Alternately, you can just use the Apostle and the Stratagem on one brick and leave other more important resources for units that do more work offensively. -2 to be hit on a Ld 9 or 10 unit (if you make the Apostle your Warlord and give him Inspiring Leader you can get to 10) will still make them pretty tough to chew on.

 

That's a good point, i totally forgot about In Midnight Clad. However, if you are investing so much into buffing one unit, aren't you better off using Berzerkers or even Possessed? Those are Elites of course, but you can just take another 5man squad to take its place in a battalion (or 10 cultists.)

 

That's the big issue overall: 20 man CSM are good because we have lots of buffs to stack on units, and big squads benefit from that. But if you are investing that much, it's generally going to be better to do it on a better unit. So we have to look at situations where CSM are good either without tons of buff stacking, or in ways that cannot be applied to another unit type. Which is what brought me to what I say in my original post.

 

Now I'm thinking even Black Legion are just better off using Berzerkers/Possessed :(

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Another Angle here:

What about Cult Marines in general? They haven't been worth considering in, say, a Black Legion or Red Corsairs army before, but now that we have all these buffs, should we take another look?

 

Berzerkers have always had great offense, but had problems with delivery and durability. But now we can give them -1 to be hit prayers and/or 5++ prayer, which will go along way. And they can get advance and charge from Red Corsairs, or extra attack when outnumbering from Black Legion, etc.

 

Plague Marines have always been solid, but they just didn't do enough damage. But now they can get +1 to wound prayer in melee, on top of their various weapons. And with -1 to be hit prayer and -1 from a power, they are no fun to shoot. With Warptime they can get into melee turn 2 and just be impossible to efficiently remove.

 

Rubrics benefit a lot from the +1 to hit prayer and -1 to be hit.

 

Noise Marines aren't so worthwhile. With bolters, they are an inferior option to plague marines or rubrics. With chainswords, inferior to berzerkers or possessed. With sonic blasters, inferior to combi-terminators or chain cannon havocs. This is because of the cost of sonic blasters really. If those got cheaper and better, then we'd be talking.

 

Of course big units run into leadership issues as I've said before, so this is mostly going to be an Iron Warriors or Black Legion option. Big bricks of Plagues and Rubrics will work well with Abaddon because he's their speed anyway.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Night Lords can also do one or two big bricks if the rest of their units are small. The key is to have one big squad to use In Midnight Clad on, together with a combination of Sorcerer and Apostle tricks.....possibly two if you go hard into points for Sorcerers and Apostles.

 

If you want to hold a large section of table and shoot away chaff, you can make that your CSM instead of, say, 15 Raptors or 10 Terminators. It will be a smothering anvil unit that is hard to remove and kills other objective holders. The combination of shenanigans (stratagem, psychic power like Miasma or Delightful Agonies, and Dark Apostle prayer for -1 to be hit and/or 5+ Invuln) should make it durable enough that Morale is less of an issue, particularly with the presence of an Apostle, though you can just save 2 CP for when you need them. For example a Nurgle blob of this variety with Miasma, In Midnight Clad, and the darkness prayer will be -3 to hit, making Guard auto-miss under many circumstances, and none of those have range limitations, unlike the Alpha Legion's Hidden in Plain Sight, which can do something similar.

 

Alternately, you can just use the Apostle and the Stratagem on one brick and leave other more important resources for units that do more work offensively. -2 to be hit on a Ld 9 or 10 unit (if you make the Apostle your Warlord and give him Inspiring Leader you can get to 10) will still make them pretty tough to chew on.

 

That's a good point, i totally forgot about In Midnight Clad. However, if you are investing so much into buffing one unit, aren't you better off using Berzerkers or even Possessed? Those are Elites of course, but you can just take another 5man squad to take its place in a battalion (or 10 cultists.)

 

That's the big issue overall: 20 man CSM are good because we have lots of buffs to stack on units, and big squads benefit from that. But if you are investing that much, it's generally going to be better to do it on a better unit. So we have to look at situations where CSM are good either without tons of buff stacking, or in ways that cannot be applied to another unit type. Which is what brought me to what I say in my original post.

 

Now I'm thinking even Black Legion are just better off using Berzerkers/Possessed

 

If you want to use the unit to do anything other than hold a point (or even multiple points given the size of the unit) with ObSec AND kill chaff pretty cheaply (1 CP per turn and an Apostle who's also able to buff other nearby units), then use another squad. Big CSM blocks are not as efficient as things like Berzerkers offensively. You need to be going for table control. 

 

In any case, In Midnight Clad should really be used on large squads to maximize its effectiveness. If not CSM, then 15 Raptors or 10 Terminators or 20 Berzerkers/Possessed. CSM are simply a good option if you want to be extremely difficult to shift from objectives.

[Gothical]

Red Corsairs are the obvious way to go to get the additional CP.

 

Following the Chapter Approved points changes and Beta Bolter rule a 5-man unit with Heavy Bolter is a good objective holding unit - has more durability and firepower than a 10-man Cultist unit. Upgrading that to a Chaingun will give them a lot more threat, but aren't as cheap and will suddenly draw a lot more attention and arguably make them worse at their job.

 

A 10-man unit with 2 Chainguns and Bolters is going to be a nice unit with a lot of firepower. The main use here is if you are fielding Havocs (either with Chainguns themselves or with other weapons) as it forces the opponent to make tougher target priority choices. Note that I am playing Iron Warriors so these guys ignore cover making them surprisingly deadly for a Troops unit.

 

10 in a Rhino with either dual-Plasma or dual-Melta and matching Combi on the Champ can be a good setup if you have a more aggressive force, and can be used in conjunction with Special Weapon Raptors and Chosen to provide multiple threat angles. Bolters or Chainswords to taste, whilst the Rhinos contribute towards armour saturation.

 

A larger 15-20 man unit is something that I am going to have to experiment with. Marks, Stratagems, Psychic Powers and Prayers could create an interesting combination to give an Ob Sec block of guys that are reasonably hard to shift for their cost. Again, as Iron Warriors I have the potential to make them Fearless so that might alter my imagined viability of the unit.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Another Angle here:

What about Cult Marines in general? They haven't been worth considering in, say, a Black Legion or Red Corsairs army before, but now that we have all these buffs, should we take another look?

 

Berzerkers have always had great offense, but had problems with delivery and durability. But now we can give them -1 to be hit prayers and/or 5++ prayer, which will go along way. And they can get advance and charge from Red Corsairs, or extra attack when outnumbering from Black Legion, etc.

 

Plague Marines have always been solid, but they just didn't do enough damage. But now they can get +1 to wound prayer in melee, on top of their various weapons. And with -1 to be hit prayer and -1 from a power, they are no fun to shoot. With Warptime they can get into melee turn 2 and just be impossible to efficiently remove.

 

Rubrics benefit a lot from the +1 to hit prayer and -1 to be hit.

 

Noise Marines aren't so worthwhile. With bolters, they are an inferior option to plague marines or rubrics. With chainswords, inferior to berzerkers or possessed. With sonic blasters, inferior to combi-terminators or chain cannon havocs. This is because of the cost of sonic blasters really. If those got cheaper and better, then we'd be talking.

 

Of course big units run into leadership issues as I've said before, so this is mostly going to be an Iron Warriors or Black Legion option. Big bricks of Plagues and Rubrics will work well with Abaddon because he's their speed anyway.

 

Rubrics in particular benefit from the Black Legion trait because if you have to-hit buffs, then you can substantially increase their speed by Advancing while still firing 1 Inferno Bolt shot per model. In such a unit, you'd probably want 2 Warpflamers or so, then the rest boltguns and a plasma pistol for the champ. Doing this might put you in decent position for something like Tip of the Spear, and their individual shots tend to be so deadly to infantry that it might be worth it. Have the champ dump his Smite for Warp Time via Chaos Familiar so you don't have to assign a Sorcerer to them.

 

They can also benefit from In Midnight Clad, Iron Without/Iron Within + Cold and Bitter, or......hey, how about The Scourged for "Prescience" where they get free shots at anyone who deep strikes within 12? That definitely creates a no-go zone if you're looking at taking Inferno Bolt fire. An Apostle can make up for a lack of Vets in many situations.

 

Plague Marines from the Purge could be quite hilarious in a large chunk that can shoot into combat....even with "template" weapons like Plague Spewers, plus they can easily get rerolls to hit with the Purge trait once something gets wounded, helping with their low offensive output a bit.

 

For Noise Marines, I'd have to say that Iron Warriors are worth a look. You can leave them all with bolters since they ignore cover anyway and just add the Blastmasters and a Doom Siren. Reduces the expense. Then add Cold and Bitter and the new buffs to taste and have fun with Music of the Apocalypse when they die. Sorcerers could help before, but the Apostle buffs really push it over the line into "interesting" territory.

 

Berzerkers like being Black Legion, Red Corsairs, or Brazen Beasts. Hit them with Prescience and Warptime, plus the Apostle buff that replaces Vets and maybe the Invuln or the -1 to be hit. Then slam in and watch the body parts fly (especially with things like Merciless Fighters and/or World Killers).

 

Crimson Slaughter get honorable mention for Berzerkers because you can farm back command points that your Berzerkers spent to fight 3 times or make key rolls and they also become fearless until the end of your turn if they destroy a unit, so all those casualties you took in your own fight phase from return attacks or exploding vehicles won't matter. They also have a stratagem that gives everybody within 3 in of a terrain feature -1 to hit (including in combat). That one has to target a terrain feature within 12 in, at which Berzerkers just shrug since they're going to be close anyway. Cover campers in ruins are NOT going to be happy.

 

There are many other cult troop combos that were already at least reasonable before that are now pushed into "useful" territory by Dark Apostle 2.0. Further experimentation is definitely warranted.

[Dumah]

I've been meditating on 10 man squads with Chaincannon and Lascannon to take advantage of the Scourged trait: use the reroll on the lascannon and lots of shots from chaincannon + 8 bolters to take advantage of 5+ overwatch. Seems versatile and, with Apostle Prayer stacked with Weaver of Fates, potential 4++ saves.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I've been meditating on 10 man squads with Chaincannon and Lascannon to take advantage of the Scourged trait: use the reroll on the lascannon and lots of shots from chaincannon + 8 bolters to take advantage of 5+ overwatch. Seems versatile and, with Apostle Prayer stacked with Weaver of Fates, potential 4++ saves.

 

Why not just 2 5 man squads? That's double the re-rolls.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Yeah, MSU Scourged with Lascannon and Combi-Plas in each 5 man squad. Back to 3rd edition, anyone? :)

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

You could also be a total jerk if you think you're going to face flyers and have at least one of your MSU Scourged squads pack a Missile Launcher. Re-rolled Flak Missile every turn? Yes, please. :)

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Overall, we're seeing a huge number of options for getting re-rolls between all these characters, traits, and strats. So there's a choice to be made on where to get them from. You could bring a lord to buff several units, or could build around one of these traits and have more flexibility in deployment. The Purged in particular seem like they would want a few units that get re-rolls or other buffs to soften up a bunch of units, and then other units that aren't close to those characters take advantage of it.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Agreed on the Purge. If there are any Tau players that want to break into CSM, they should start there. :)

[Dumah]

Yeah, MSU Scourged with Lascannon and Combi-Plas in each 5 man squad. Back to 3rd edition, anyone? :)

Good shout. Still might like one large squad with lots of dakka to camp an objective and put out annoyingly effective overwatch.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

They've changed the way they do heavy and special weapons, then?  Because now you need 10 models to have 2.  Can you still take 2 heavy or 2 special rather than 1 of each?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

They've changed the way they do heavy and special weapons, then?  Because now you need 10 models to have 2.  Can you still take 2 heavy or 2 special rather than 1 of each?

 

In 5, you can take 1 special or heavy. At 10, you can take a second special or heavy. And in either case, the champion gets a combi weapon. So 2 5 mans actually has an extra weapon over 1 10 man due to the second champion. This is the way it's been for all of 8th.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Ah - I had misread GCT and somehow missed the "combi".  Thanks.

[Midnight Brotherhood]

I think the changes to the dark apostle and the access to the chaincannon are going to be what tips me into using basic CSM in my lists now over cultists. I'm not going to go all in with a big squad of 20, but I am thinking of buying a box of 10 CSM and box of havocs so that I can make a 5 man chaincannon CSM squad, 5 man autocannon CSM squad and then havocs with 2 las and 2 ML. That way I've got 2 CSM squads and cultists for a battalion and havocs for anti tank.

 

My 2 plasma raptor squads, terminators and chaos lord are always going to be my hammer though with defiler and chosen in a Rhino as a distraction while the CSM make thier way towards objectives while laying down some decent firepower.