Land Raider with treads in cover....

[9x19 Parabellum]

So today I played a game with my buddy where he parks a land raider up behind a ruin terrain piece with a few centimeters of the front tread actually "on" the terrain. He later claimed the benefit of cover (he was 50% obscured).

 

I raised a hairy eyeball, as I thought the entire unit (in this case, a single model) had to be WHOLLY within the ruin terrain piece to gain the benefit of cover.

 

Here are the 2 pieces of errata I found that govern this:

 

From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Page 248 – Ruins

Change the first paragraph of rules text to read:

‘Unless they can Fly, Vehicles, Monsters, Cavalry

and Bikers can only be set up or end their move on the

ground floor of ruins.’

Change the third paragraph of rules text to read:

‘Infantry units that are entirely on or within a ruin

receive the benefit of cover. Other units that are entirely

on or within a ruin only receive the benefit of cover if at

least 50% of every model is obscured from the point of

view of the shooting model.’

 

That would seem to imply to me that a unit (a landraider or a unit of 10 infantry models have to ALL be ENTIRELY on or within (translation: wholly within) the terrain feature in order to claim cover.

 

But then I came across this right on the next page:

 

Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’

and ‘within’ for rules purposes?

A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly

within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is

within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so

long as any part of the unit/model is within.

For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every

model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long

as all the models in that unit are either on or partially

within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.

 

This seems to refute the first part that I read.  So let's take 3 different examples and see how they stack up:

 

1.  Player A has a unit of 10 genestealers.  9 of them are entirely (wholly) within a ruin terrain feature, and 1 of them is entirely outside the ruin terrain.  He does not get to claim cover for the whole unit.

 

2. Player B has a unit of 5 Vanguard Veterans.  4 of them are entirely (wholly) within a ruin terrain feature, and 1 of them is partially within the terrain feature. He does get to claim the benefit of cover for the whole unit.

 

3. Player A has a Carnifex that is wholly within a ruin terrain feature but is not 50% obscured; no cover.

 

4. Player B has a Land Raider with a tank tread on a ruin terrain, the rest of the model is off the terrain piece, but is 50% obscured; he does get to claim the benefit of cover.

 

Is the above 4 all correct?

 

[Wassa]

He is correct, from the Rulebook FAQ:

 

 

 

Q: Do units that are not Infantry (Vehicles, Monsters, etc.) gain the benefit of cover from woods, ruins etc. if they are at least 50% obscured by that piece of terrain but are not actually on or within it?

 

A: No. Unless they are Infantry, such a unit must meet the two following conditions to gain the benefit of cover:

• All of its models must be either on or within the terrain.

• The unit must be at least 50% obscured from the point of view of the firer (note that it doesn’t matter what is obscuring the target, only that it is obscured).

 

 

So vehicles have to be either on or within. It does not say wholly within, and so touching it is fine, as long as 50% of the vehicle is obscured.

 

Imagine when his vehicle slightly touches cover, and your own army obscures 50% of his vehicle to give him a cover save. But that's the rule!

 

I'm guard, and so I use this too :) .

[Closet Skeleton]

The wholly within applies to the unit, not the model. A squadron of 3 sentinels need to have all three touching the terrain feature, a land raider is a unit of one model but that doesn't mean that model = unit.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Yep. It's just hard to believe that in 2 years of 8th edition no one has ever pulled this on me or tried it nor have I seen it in play.

[Wassa]

Spring FAQ I think so only a year.

 

It’s fairly hard as most peoples scenery tend to be structures, obstacles, or hills which you cant get a vehicle on.

 

I’ve started making scenery like jungles and woods where you can actually get a vehicle on part of the clearing to gain the bonus.

[Morticon]

Yep. It's just hard to believe that in 2 years of 8th edition no one has ever pulled this on me or tried it nor have I seen it in play.

The local group i'm gaming with has only seen this pop up in the last 6 months too.  When I told them/showed them how it worked, the reactions were very much the same as your initial one! 

 

it's counter-intuitive, that's why.  

[Lysere]

 

Yep. It's just hard to believe that in 2 years of 8th edition no one has ever pulled this on me or tried it nor have I seen it in play.

The local group i'm gaming with has only seen this pop up in the last 6 months too.  When I told them/showed them how it worked, the reactions were very much the same as your initial one! 

 

it's counter-intuitive, that's why.  

 

 

I'd argue that it's not counter intuitive, just the normal terrain rules are so bad at times that it seems weird. If anything the Land raider shouldn't even have to be touching the terrain to gain the cover save for being 50% obscured but that's 8th ed cover for you. 

[Panzer]

Honestly, it's just a badly written FAQ entry.

Let us deconstruct what's written. Green for parts that talk about when a rule includes 'wholly within' or similar and red for when it's just 'within'.

 

 

Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’

and ‘within’ for rules purposes?

A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly

within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is

within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so

long as any part of the unit/model is within.

For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every

model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long

as all the models in that unit are either on or partially

within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.

 

 

 

The question is not how things work when 'wholly within' is used, the question is what's the difference between 'wholly within' and just 'within'. So GW goes and doesn't just explain what 'wholly within' means and instead explains both (and unfortunately focusses more on the just 'within' part).

 

First they explain what 'wholly within' means.

Then they explain what it means if they just used 'within'.

Then they give an example for when they just use 'within' and give a conclusion/explanation to that example.

 

The last two parts have NOTHING to do with when they use 'wholly within'.

 

So the example with a Landraider having just the treads on a ruin terrain piece doesn't hold. It still has to be entirely/wholly on or within the ruins as that's what the rules for ruins say. Now if you use other terrain that doesn't say a model/unit has to be entirely on or within it (official terrain or self-made) then that's a different matter, but if you say something is a ruin then the rules are clearly defined.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

This question has now been answered by the 2019 Big FAQ - https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-3.pdf  - page 7, topmost pink section on left.

 

So, no, you need the whole landraider in cover to get the increased save.

[Wassa]

Still need to be 50% obscured though.

[Panzer]

Yeah the terrain rules didn't change. They are just as bad as before. The wording of the clarification just got cleaned up so people are less confused by it.

[TheWolfLord]

This question has now been answered by the 2019 Big FAQ - https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-3.pdf  - page 7, topmost pink section on left.

 

So, no, you need the whole landraider in cover to get the increased save.

Sorry but I’m not seeing where the whole of the Land Raider needs to be on the terrain.

 

It even more clearly says the Land Raider gets cover if it’s partially on or in terrain (subject to 50% obscured of course).

[Panzer]

 

It even more clearly says the Land Raider gets cover if it’s partially on or in terrain (subject to 50% obscured of course).

 

It really doesn't.

It clarifies that if a rule says wholly within it means that "it only applies when every part of the model's base (or hull) is within" (emphasis by me).

The example given afterwards applies to terrain in general, HOWEVER ruins have a different wording and explicitly state that models have to be "entirely within or on" it.

[TheWolfLord]

 

It even more clearly says the Land Raider gets cover if it’s partially on or in terrain (subject to 50% obscured of course).

 

It really doesn't.

It clarifies that if a rule says wholly within it means that "it only applies when every part of the model's base (or hull) is within" (emphasis by me).

The example given afterwards applies to terrain in general, HOWEVER ruins have a different wording and explicitly state that models have to be "entirely within or on" it.

Ruins state units must be entirely within not models. The part that confuses people is that additionally ruins require non infantry MODELS to be 50% obscured as well.

 

“Other units that are entirely on or within a ruin”

 

This is actually covered under the new FAQ as well. “If a rule says it affects units if every model in that unit is ‘within’ then applies so long as any part of every model’s base (or hull) is within.”

 

The requirement for ruins isn’t actually any different from the basic core rules for cover on p181 of the main rules. “If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain feature,”. There is no terrain so far that requires every model in the unit to be wholly within to gain cover.

 

Additionally on P4 of the rulebook FAQ GW has explained this exact wording.

 

Q: When determining whether a model benefits from cover, does the model’s entire unit need to be fully on or within terrain, or just the model making a particular saving throw?

A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive the +1 bonus to their saving throw.

 

Bearing in mind that although that FAQ is for the basic core cover rule in reality the wording for the basic cover rules are the same as the rules for ruins I.e. “unit is entirely on or within” so both rules have the same requirement (ignoring the obscured part).

[Wassa]

A landraider with treads is "within" the terrain.

 

 

They also clarified what "Wholely within" means, which means it has to be completely within it.

[TheWolfLord]

A landraider with treads is "within" the terrain.

 

 

They also clarified what "Wholely within" means, which means it has to be completely within it.

That’s correct. Ruins haven’t changed to “wholly within” so nothing’s changed in the latest FAQ yet others are saying the Land Raider now needs to be completely within it.

[Panzer]

Do you seriously try to argue that entirely and wholly mean two different things? Ruins have been 'entirely within' for a very long time now.

[TheWolfLord]

Do you seriously try to argue that entirely and wholly mean two different things? Ruins have been 'entirely within' for a very long time now.

I don’t need to argue, it’s already specifically and well explained in the FAQ.

 

Firstly though you might want to reread the rules for ruins and the basic cover rules themselves as they both say the same thing.

 

Basic cover rules - “If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain feature”

 

Ruin cover rules - “Infantry units that are entirely on or within a ruin” & “Other units that are entirely on or within a ruin”.

 

So I don’t think there can be any argument that the requirement for gaining cover in Ruins is no different from the basic cover rules.

 

So the argument comes down to what “unit is/are entirely on or within a ruin/terrain feature” means.

 

However there’s an FAQ that answers this very question that I’ve already mentioned but seems to be ignored.

 

“Q: When determining whether a model benefits from cover, does the model’s entire unit need to be fully on or within terrain, or just the model making a particular saving throw?

A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive the +1 bonus to their saving throw.

 

Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit of cover.”

 

This question asks if the entire unit needs to be FULLY on or within terrain and GW says no, each model in the unit only needs to be partially on or within terrain to satisfy the cover requirement.

 

There are no current cover rules that say a model needs to be fully on or within it to gain cover.

[TheWolfLord]

Additionally, this new revised definition of “within” and “wholly within” also says exactly this too.

 

“If a rule says it affects units if every model in that unit is ‘within’ then applies so long as any part of every model’s base (or hull) is within.”

 

“If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain feature” is a rule that’s says just that.

 

Even more clearly the new FAQ goes on to say.

 

“For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the models in that unit are either on or partially within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.”

 

That above example can’t be any clearer and as you can see the requirement for ruins or woods or craters is no different to the requirement for cover from the core rules. Therefore as they all have the same wording and requirement we shouldn’t be treating them any differently. Ruins only require all models in a unit to be partially on or within it to gain cover, a single model unit therefore only needs to be partially on or in the ruin.