Havoc mathhammer

[Drudge Dreadnought]

But honestly, if there was a heavy weapon to be put out to pasture, I think the Hvy. Bolter is a good contender. It's been a good run, but the Hvy. Bolter hasn't really had 'legs' for some time now.

 

They had a moment at the start of 8th. Everyone was spamming them as their anti-horde. But yeah I remember even back in 5th they were pretty useless unless you were fighting Tau. They only really got taken on infantry because they could be free on tacs.

And it has a similar problem to the frag missile. Bolt weapons in general just didn't get translated to 8th very well. If heavy bolters had another strength, then it would wound t3 on 2's and suddenly it would have a role killing guardsmen and eldar.

But overall it seems like bolt weapons are missing a special rule this edition. I wish they'd just give them back old-style ap5. Let them ignore 5+ and worse saves and they'd have a role chewing up light infantry. Heavy bolter could ignore 4+ and better and it'd be a really solid weapon, and different from both the reaper and the autocannon by a lot.

[Brother Aiwass]

I feel the HB should be AP -2; no guardsmen should be safe from a wound of a  heavy bolter. This should work making vehicles to have the rubrics rule.

[Xenith]

Thanks for this spreadsheet.

 

It always bums me out when GW totally makes something obsolete (heavy bolter) with the inclusion of a new weapon.

The heavy bolter has been obsolete since 3rd ed, although I actually had success with tank hunting heavy bolter havocs in 3.5 dex.

 

I'd be interested to see a comparison in points per wound between combi Bolters and heavy Bolters. Against infantry I have a feeling that combis would win.

[Charlo]

Had a skim of this and it cemented my thoughts, GW clearly made the Gatling Gun better than all other options to sell kits. Two Heavy Bolters in the kit is, at this point, a  insult. "Min-Maxers" is not an appropriate term either when one is just so wildly better than the other too.

 

Time to get some Plasticard and extend those barrels!

[MegaVolt87]

I think that Heavy bolter will still be relevant as a cheap wound(s) in havocs or a dedicated squad when people realize just taking 1 rotor havoc unit, will see the wisdom of putting those rotors in CSM/ Chosen squads instead. Just one rotor havoc unit is going to catch too much attention, you will need at least two I imagine. 

[Subtle Discord]

Yeah, I'm not putting the Reaper Chaincannon (RCC) in my Havoc squads. For me, the Havocs will sit back with Auto and Las cannons (2 of each in 2 squads - yay redundancy!) and use their move-and-shoot to keep good fire lanes while trying to avoid return fire. If you're close enough to use the RCC you're close enough to get erased by almost every weapon in the game, nope I'm gonna' spread them around and give my normal Marines some teeth; with 8 shots I'm not as worried about moving and shooting for a turn or two as they get into position so I'll toss them in a Rhino and rush them into midfield and use the Rhino as a screen and/or harassing unit.

[Wayniac]

Yeah, I'm not putting the Reaper Chaincannon (RCC) in my Havoc squads. For me, the Havocs will sit back with Auto and Las cannons (2 of each in 2 squads - yay redundancy!) and use their move-and-shoot to keep good fire lanes while trying to avoid return fire. If you're close enough to use the RCC you're close enough to get erased by almost every weapon in the game, nope I'm gonna' spread them around and give my normal Marines some teeth; with 8 shots I'm not as worried about moving and shooting for a turn or two as they get into position so I'll toss them in a Rhino and rush them into midfield and use the Rhino as a screen and/or harassing unit.

 

Hmm, interesting idea about 2/2 auto/las so one squad can't get wiped out.  I like it.  I like it a lot.

[Subtle Discord]

Yep, and depending on the line of sight you can always split-fire if you want to focus either/or on a particular target. Additionally, if the squad is forced to shoot at an unideal target it's only for half of the squad and the less suited weapon still does work; ideal hard targets for a Lascannon are still threatened by the Auto, and Elite targets that Autocannons would aim for still don't want to be hit with a Lascannon but it might be overkill. Finally, as the squad takes casualties you can pick and choose what to lose depending on the situation. I'm not a super competitive player but I do play to win and I try to use redundancy and flexibility as much as possible.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I've been thinking about the relationship between Obliterators and Comb-Plasma terminators. These two units are surprisingly comparable it turns out, but with some differences of course.

 

3 combi plasma+chainaxe terminators is 114pts, 1 oblit is 115. So same cost.

 

The combi-plasma overcharge profile is comparable to Fleshmetal guns, on average. Fleshmetal guns have the random element, but can perform better. Overcharged plasma always has ap-3, and guaranteed D2, so that's a slight edge. Oblits can benefit from the Devastation Battery and get re-roll wounds of 1's vs vehicles, so edge to them on that. And of course, overcharge plasma needs buffs/auras to make it safe to use. But both these units are high enough investment that they'll probably have it either way.

 

The oblit always has 6 shots, the terminators only get that in rapidfire range. But the terminators also get bolter shots. Bolter+regular plasma is better vs hordes than fleshmetal guns by a decent amount, which helps make up for the range.

 

The terminators have twice as many attacks. Compared to the chainaxe, the oblit has an extra strength and Dd3. The terminators can spend a few extra points to improve their weapons beyond what the oblits can get. Terminators solid win here.

 

They have the same saves, but the Terminators have 2 more wounds for the same price, and are less vulnerable to d3 and higher weapons. But you need to deal twice as many wounds to the oblits to reduce their firepower. The oblits have the daemon keyword and so can get some extra buff synergy, and T5. So that all about evens out. Oblits win if you have a MoP upping their invul save.

 

The terminators have 1" more move. Both deep strike.

 

3 oblits is equivalent to 9 terminators, but the terminators can go to 10, meaning you're packing a little bit more points into the squad to take advantage of buff and strats. But you need to worry about morale at that size.

 

So overall, these units seem to measure up to each other very fairly. They both share the role of being high cost, high firepower units that will get a lot out of buff stacking. The oblits do it better as mid field units taking advantage of their range. Their CC will mostly not get used except in self defense. The terminators have the edge as a pressure unit that's going to move into close range and force your opponent to deal with it.

 

If you run both, your opponent will have no idea what to shoot.

 

Of course, the other roll of terminators is cheap combi-bolters. These of course won't be as damaging as chain cannon havocs, but have like 4x the durability, and are a solid melee threat.

[MegaVolt87]

I thought chaos termi's had a 5 man min size? 3 man size seems like an old unit minimum size. Also 4 CSM bikers with 2 plasma guns are 114 points exactly, might be a better comparison for using as another shooting unit? 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I thought chaos termi's had a 5 man min size? 3 man size seems like an old unit minimum size. Also 4 CSM bikers with 2 plasma guns are 114 points exactly, might be a better comparison for using as another shooting unit? 

 

Yes, terminators are minimum squad size of 5. I'm comparing 3 terminators to 1 oblit because that's what the same price point is. You couldn't take the first and probably would never take just 1 oblit in a squad.

 

The bikers are going to have slightly more anti-horde firepower, but nowhere near the same melee or defense as either terminators or oblits. They're a totally different sort of unit. They've also got the same range problem as terminators. If you're going to be getting within 12", you'd much rather have 2+/5++ and a chainaxe than some extra speed.

[Prot]

It’s a good comparison and it holds out hope for Combi plas Termies. I like Oblits better with MoP and Termies better with Abaddon, especially since his aura improved which is the number one reason I hated supercharged plasma.

 

As far as chainguns I just think they’re better in a Havoc squad and I just foresee using them in a Rhino, using old rhino wall techniques to wall off infantry. I just believe that you could spend halff a game trying to accomplish as much with a lascannon squad, especially after factoring in buffs. At the mere point cost I think I really only need one turn out if each Chaingun Havoc squad. The Dark Apostle could work super good with that unit in particular since it is fragile...

 

Back to Termies the good thing about that loadout is I can use mostly my old plastic Termies.

[Subtle Discord]

Makes sense to compare 2 Obliterators to 5-6 Terminators in that case? Since it's about the typical size you'll see for each unit, and if it's larger its because the list is going all-in on a unit/strategy/theme and it doesn't really matter at that point.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I used to run MoS 5 combi plasma terminators, they rarely disappoint but I am glad they compare fairly evenly to obliterators. I'm not surprised combi-plas terminators are more reliable, but I always feel like they require a significant investment to safely use them, namely that they absolutely must have a sorc with presience nearby or a chaos lord. Obliterators feel a little more flexible to me, they can hang out on their own at a safer range and contribute a similar amount of firepower, though they certainly improve a lot when buffed. 

 

Plus the main reason I want to not always be using slaanesh terminators anymore is I really want to try combi bolter/chainaxe terminators, really interested to see how they perform as a relatively cheap but tough horde clearing squad. 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Makes sense to compare 2 Obliterators to 5-6 Terminators in that case? Since it's about the typical size you'll see for each unit, and if it's larger its because the list is going all-in on a unit/strategy/theme and it doesn't really matter at that point.

 

Comparing 1 to 3 or 2 to 6 or 3 to 9 would all be the same ratio. I did 1 to 3 because it's the smallest quantity. You can just double it for 2 to 6.

 

I used to run MoS 5 combi plasma terminators, they rarely disappoint but I am glad they compare fairly evenly to obliterators. I'm not surprised combi-plas terminators are more reliable, but I always feel like they require a significant investment to safely use them, namely that they absolutely must have a sorc with presience nearby or a chaos lord. Obliterators feel a little more flexible to me, they can hang out on their own at a safer range and contribute a similar amount of firepower, though they certainly improve a lot when buffed. 

 

Plus the main reason I want to not always be using slaanesh terminators anymore is I really want to try combi bolter/chainaxe terminators, really interested to see how they perform as a relatively cheap but tough horde clearing squad. 

 

Pretty much. Its worth nothing that the combi-plas terminators benefit more from prescience and the Apostle's +1 to hit prayer since it also offsets their overheat risk, and/or their penalty to hit for firing both parts of the combi-weapon.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Here's some numbers for terminators. The point here is to give more of an idea of just what you can expect these to be able to kill.

 

 

EDIT: Had forgotten to include the chainaxe cost with the combi-bolter, so it was 1 point low. Doesn't make much difference, but fixed it.

 

With the combi-bolter you can expect to kill about 1 horde unit per terminator, and 1 marine per 2 terminators. Of course its a little better still if you've got full re-rolls to hit from Abaddon.

 

The melee is actually less efficient than the shooting in most cases since 2 more shots is better than +1str and -1ap. But of course it's a lot easier to get re-roll wounds for Chaos in melee than re-roll shooting. What's interesting to note is that while the power axe is going to kill a bit more stuff, it's not actually more points efficient. It stays about even. So that extra -1 ap apparently is worth the extra 4pts, at least on a terminator.

 

So these combi-bolters can kill hordes, but we're still looking at a 29pt model averaging 1-1.5 kills per volley vs 4-6pt models.That's solidly in "you will never make your points back" territory. They are about half as efficient at killing Guardsmen as the Chain Cannon havoc, and about the same as autocannon havocs. In melee they are not a ton better. The combi-plasma overcharge has worse numbers against hordes, similar again MeQs, and much better vs multi-wound stuff and tanks. And that's with just the 1 shot at 24". If you get within 12", you'll double that. And now you're getting about the same killing efficiency vs hordes, and 2-6 times more against other models, despite costing ~30% more points. That's a big jump! And of course you can fire on standard profile to save yourself some risk and still get the same results vs guardsmen and eldar.

 

And this isn't taking into account firing both the bolter and plasma profile. Even with the -1 to hit, that'll easily overtake the combi-bolter, even at 24" vs hordes (and you don't need the overcharge vs them.) So the combi-plasma is just flat out better. And keep in mind that the only reason the combi-bolter was even competing with the single plasma shot at 24" is because of the Beta bolter rule. Without that, it's a flop.

 

This all isn't really surprising. Plasma is really good this edition. Bolters are bad. Combi-weapons getting to fire both profiles is also super good. As I've said before, if the combi-bolter had even just a little something extra, like -1 AP or something, then it'd have a decent role still. But as things stand, point for point, combi-plasma blows it out of the water at it's own game, and can also kill anything else on the board.

 

So before we were looking at plasma squads and cheap bolter squads. But given just how poorly the combi-bolter actually does, my suggestion is that even cheap squads should have some combi-plasma. A 2:3 or 3:2 ratio would probably work out okay, and provides ablative wounds.

[Finkmilkana]

And this isn't taking into account firing both the bolter and plasma profile. Even with the -1 to hit, that'll easily overtake the combi-bolter, even at 24" vs hordes (and you don't need the overcharge vs them.) So the combi-plasma is just flat out better. And keep in mind that the only reason the combi-bolter was even competing with the single plasma shot at 24" is because of the Beta bolter rule. Without that, it's a flop.

 

That’s not actually correct. A combi-plasma firing at 24 will only kill 0.866 guardsmen, clearly less far less than a combo bolter. At 12 it will still only kill 1.28 guardsmen, which makes their „wounds per point“ ratio far worse than combi bolter terminators.

 

On the flip side, against targets that you want to use plasma against, firing both profiles actually decreases damage.

 

 

Now, this obviously doesn’t mean that combi-bolter terminators are actually useful and taking them should usually be avoided. And now that combi-x has gotten so cheap, having the option to shoot the combi part if needed at least doesn’t hurt the unit anymore. But shooting both should only ever be used in an emergency when literally no viable target for just shooting the plasma gun is available.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

And this isn't taking into account firing both the bolter and plasma profile. Even with the -1 to hit, that'll easily overtake the combi-bolter, even at 24" vs hordes (and you don't need the overcharge vs them.) So the combi-plasma is just flat out better. And keep in mind that the only reason the combi-bolter was even competing with the single plasma shot at 24" is because of the Beta bolter rule. Without that, it's a flop.

That’s not actually correct. A combi-plasma firing at 24 will only kill 0.866 guardsmen, clearly less far less than a combo bolter. At 12 it will still only kill 1.28 guardsmen, which makes their „wounds per point“ ratio far worse than combi bolter terminators.

 

On the flip side, against targets that you want to use plasma against, firing both profiles actually decreases damage.

 

 

Now, this obviously doesn’t mean that combi-bolter terminators are actually useful and taking them should usually be avoided. And now that combi-x has gotten so cheap, having the option to shoot the combi part if needed at least doesn’t hurt the unit anymore. But shooting both should only ever be used in an emergency when literally no viable target for just shooting the plasma gun is available.

 

 

Ah, you're right. I should run the numbers before I make assumptions. I totally underestimated how much that -1 to hit would reduce the bolter damage.

 

Here's a comparison of 2bolt+1plas and 2bolt+1 overcharged plas vs the combi bolter.

 

 

Okay, so I have to update my conclusion: The combi-bolter does have a role where it's more efficient than the combi-plasma, but it's still not going to make its points back in that role.

 

 

Also I had previously run the combibolter and chain axe terminator as 28pts since I forgot to include the axe. Fixed it now. Doesn't really change anything.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

And just to round this all out, here's the reaper autocannon:

 

The big problem with the Reaper of course is that it takes a penalty to move and shoot, so I've included two versions of it. It looks like it actually holds up pretty well.

When moving, it's at about the same efficiency as a combi-bolter vs infantry, and more vs higher toughness models. Stationary it overtakes it by a decent amount. And it beats the single shot overcharge plasma vs hordes of course, even in double tap range. It'd benefit a lot from full rerolls to hit. And the extra range is nice.

I'm not sure  if its really worth using overall though. Its more expensive than the combi-bolter, and you don't gain much extra per point for that due to the movement penalty. If Terminators returned to being able to ignore that, it'd be a solid take in squads except for close range combi-plasma. And even a single plasma shot is beating it vs tougher models and especially multi-wound models.

I guess if I was doing a mixed squad I might do like 2 combi-bolters, 1 reaper, and 2 combi-plasma. But I'm not convinced that we're not just better off doing all plasma to benefit more from shoot twice strat. I guess it depends on if you're also running Oblits which are gonna use that up.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Hmm, nothing too surprising. Plasma really is king this edition, even more so for chaos when we can very easily offset the overheat issue and fire twice. That being said, if you've already invested in a bunch of havocs and/or obliterators, I could see the case for combi-bolter/chainxe terminators. It is the cheapest option possible for I think any marine army to put terminators on the table, and I think there's something to be said for being able to take a decently tough small unit like that which has a little punch and doesn't require significant investments in stratagems or buffs from characters.  

 

Overall damage wise, combi-plas is of course still king, I didn't foresee anything changing that, but I still would like to give chainaxe/combi bolter terminators a shot. 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yeah. I think the role of combi-bolter+chainaxe will be to just get in your opponents face. Remember terminators actually still do really well for durability. They may not kill their points with that loadout, but they can get stuff stuck in close combat and be difficult to get rid of.

[Iron_Within]

 

Chain cannons are amazing I can attest. Played against a primaris list on the weekend and they deleted a unit a turn. They were part of a devastation battery and with the re rolling 1s on the wounding for vehicles they put some hurt on the repulsers too

 

Did you use the Punishing Volley Stratagem as well? How was the reaction? ^^

 

 

Didn't need to as I had first turn. Anyway, I deployed my Havocs in Rhinos' with CSM units in support so he could get a shot at them if he stole the initiative.

 

I personally think the punishing volley is a trap as you get one shot off then your unit is guaranteed to die. If they catch you out, great use it as a nasty surprise, but I don't think it's an idea to plan around it. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So what if your Havocs get merked in the subsequent shooting phase. Did they do damage? Did they force your opponent to deploy in a disadvantageous way? Did it force them to hold something back out of range or LOS for a turn? Did you bracket a Knight or other large vehicle?

 

Models die in this game, and for the most part they do it quickly. So whether your Havocs died in the first after having fired once or in the second turn having fired once, it should make no difference to you. Punishing Volley isn't about you. It's about what your opponent does or doesn't do in response.

 

If you interrupt your enemy's plan, it can psychologically throw off their whole game. Maybe your las-Havocs bracketed his Knight. Maybe the Havocs using Volley made him change his targeting priority. Maybe chain-Havocs just deleted his first rank of Boyz or Gaunts or Cultists and now he doesn't have a first-wave disruption/distraction unit to tie up your gunline or first-wave assault units.

 

I'll gladly sacrifice a unit of Havocs if it means I've won the game.

[Prot]

I think the Punishing Volley strat alone vindicates taking a long range Havoc squad. It's just too good to pass up on. Plus if you don't have first turn, it's so easy to hide 5 marines and move/shoot as required.