Strength modifiers and interactions.

[chapter master 454]

So one thing I have recently remembered and shamefully forgot was how modifiers worked with things like power fists and strength.

 

So one thing I notice is that modifying strength this edition is far easier than prior ones. We have a multitude of ways of getting strength way above what it used to be. Very easy to start getting your captain looking fairly buff. Yet I am curious with those in regards to how those work when we start talking about x2 weapons in melee.

 

So lets set-up a situation that I can use that may actually have some variance to it.

 

Lets have a Genestealer Cult Abominant rock out going for an All-Smash look. We give him one of the warlord traits that give him +1 strength and +1 attack. He hails from the twisted helix so another +1 to his strength due to his faction bonus. We then have a psyker give him the buff "might from beyond" which is another +1 to his strength and attack stat. He then has a Iconward get nearby with the relic banner giving him another +1 to strength and finally a Biophagus runs up and gives him a shot in the arm which for this case we will say rolls the +1 strength buff. This Abominant now have 5 buffs all of which boost its strength by a total of 5 resulting in a total strength stat of 11.

We now move to combat with our (im)perfect specimen and swing with his hammer. What strength will the attack have?

At my assumption, it would actually be 21. Of the 5 buffs, only 1 is given by an aura and not a permanent boost and so is added effectively again everytime we check his strength. However I could see cases for 20 (the creed and banner both not really being part of the stat-line) however below that I cannot see as the stats themselves have become modified themselves, not a buff being added.

 

If however all 5 buffs are considered part of the abominants strength and he would swing with a full 22 strength, why is there a section in the rule book relating to modifiers and multipliers for stats or is there some now fringe case set of buffs that this applies to? 

[Panzer]

It would be 22. It doesn't matter the source or whether a strength buff is permanent or not. It modifies the strength stat in the profile and when you swing the weapon you double that number.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

That's what I thought too, then I read the actual rule for modifying characteristics on page 175 of the rulebook, which states:

 

"All modifiers are cumulative, but you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any any addition or subtraction."

[Tyriks]

Yes, but that's not what's happening in this case. There's an FAQ somewhere that said the modifiers affect the profile itself, and are applied constantly for the duration. Then when you attack it multiplies. I'm sure that's what sfPanzer is thinking of as well.

[Rogue]

It's in the designer commentary.

 

You apply strength modifiers first, then weapon modifiers.

 

However, with those strength modifiers, you multiply first, then add or subtract.

 

They give an example of a S3 model with a x2 weapon, who is also affected by two psychic powers - one doubles strength, the other subtracts one. So the model goes to S6 first, then to S5 (double 3 to 6, then minus one for 5). That S5 is then doubled by the weapon, for a final strength of 10.

[Tyriks]

It's in the designer commentary.

You apply strength modifiers first, then weapon modifiers.

However, with those strength modifiers, you multiply first, then add or subtract.

They give an example of a S3 model with a x2 weapon, who is also affected by two psychic powers - one doubles strength, the other subtracts one. So the model goes to S6 first, then to S5 (double 3 to 6, then minus one for 5). That S5 is then doubled by the weapon, for a final strength of 10.

Yes, thank you. I was looking for it but couldn't find it.

[chapter master 454]

Ok so let me straighten this out, what we have in reality is that there are two categories of buffs/debuffs: Stat and Weapon.

 

Each follow the rule of modifier order however each do so in their own bracket and are done in order of: Stat Modifiers then Weapon Modifiers.

 

Weapon Modifiers are separate from Stat Modifiers and are identified by the simple fact that all stat modifiers come from special rules.

 

So in theory then, does that mean if a power fist (or any x2 melee weapon for that fact) had a special rule which stated the model wielding it gains/counts as +1 strength, then on a S3 model whenever that model swings it would be strength 8?

 

My head is spinning a little from this but considering I asked this to straighten things out, it has done so so far which is good to know. Just not helpful when game designers inadvertently add in "hidden" categories of buffs. I know I was likely overthinking it but considering how awkward re-rolls with modifiers can be (but understandably so), it is good to check.

[Rogue]

The commentary doesn't address that specifically.

 

I guess that, in your example, if the Gauntlets of Smashing are an Sx2 weapon that confer +1S and +1A on the bearer, then that +1S modifies the base strength before the weapon's own modifier kicks in and doubles it.

 

So on a marine, the Gauntlets of Smashing would be S4+1, for 5, then 5x2 for 10.

[Panzer]

Ok so let me straighten this out, what we have in reality is that there are two categories of buffs/debuffs: Stat and Weapon.

 

Each follow the rule of modifier order however each do so in their own bracket and are done in order of: Stat Modifiers then Weapon Modifiers.

 

Weapon Modifiers are separate from Stat Modifiers and are identified by the simple fact that all stat modifiers come from special rules.

 

So in theory then, does that mean if a power fist (or any x2 melee weapon for that fact) had a special rule which stated the model wielding it gains/counts as +1 strength, then on a S3 model whenever that model swings it would be strength 8?

 

My head is spinning a little from this but considering I asked this to straighten things out, it has done so so far which is good to know. Just not helpful when game designers inadvertently add in "hidden" categories of buffs. I know I was likely overthinking it but considering how awkward re-rolls with modifiers can be (but understandably so), it is good to check.

 

Thats right. Because the way you described it the weapon would modify the stat with +1 first and then double it as well. If you wanted to end up with S7 attacks on a S3 model GW would probably write it as "x2+1" instead of "x2" and then adding some wordy special rule ... or simply give it a fix S7 to begin with. ;)

[Kallas]

 

 

Designer's Commentary

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?

 

A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon’s Strength characteristic.

 

For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.

 

If the modifiers are applied to the Strength Characteristic of the model, then you apply them first [multiply/divide then add/subtract]; and then you apply any modifiers from the model's weapon [multiply/divide then add/subtract].

 

So, assuming someone has a Power Fist (Sx2) and is under a -1 Strength psychic power debuff, you'd subtract one from their strength first (as it is being applied to the characteristic) and then double it for the Fist. If that model has S3 base, it'd go: S3 -> -1 to S2 -> x2 to S4.