Ultramarines made Top 8 of Adepticon!

[Tokugawa]

An Ultramarines player, Thomas Byrd, just entered Top8 of Adepticon 40K Championship, one of the biggest 40K events.

 

https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/46mrvma4?started=true&embed=false

 

He brings Gman, Tiggy, 2 Sicaran Venetors and 1 Relic Levi in his list. He won against 2 Chaos, 1 AM based Imperium and 1 Ork opponents in Swiss rounds.

 

Thoughts?

[derLumpi]

Never mind :)

[N1SB]

This was fascinating.  Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

 

I scrolled further down and looked for the next winningest Astartes army, and it was also Ultramarines (tied for 30th place).  However, overall there wasn't that many Ultramarine lists here among the Astartes (there were more Deathwatch and even Space Wolves).  I haven't looked at those lists, but my guess is special characters' buffs gave Ultramarines the edge (they have so good options now).

 

What I found even more interesting was that it's not all Loyal 32 + Castellan nor Eldar lists at the top.  Not only were there more Ork lists in just the top 20 than Eldar, there were more JUST Bad Moonz lists than Eldar.  Also a lot of Genestealer Cult.  I don't think it's power creep with new Codices, but I do think it's that people aren't familiar fighting against the new Codices yet, as I think this is the 1st major tournament with both these Codices.

 

But mainly, happy to see more variety.  Not putting down Loyal 32 + Castellan or Eldar, just happy everything else is being brought up.

[Captain Idaho]

What other sorts of things did he bring in his list?

[Exilyth]

Looking at https://www.adepticon.org/event-rules/

(under Warhammer 40.000k -> Warhammer 40.000k Championship Rules and Warhammer 40.000k Championship Mission Packet)

it is interesting to note that Adepticon uses a scoring system similar to ITC, but does not use the ITC missions.

[Brother Captain Ed]

So did he take a calculated risk that the meta would have swung to anti-horde weaponry and the odds of seeing 48 lascannons was reduced? Or is Guilliman just so efficient with the FW models that he can lose a 300 point model every shooting phase and still stay above water?

[Closet Skeleton]

I don't know about American tournaments but I don't think lascannon spam has ever been the meta (and I've played against it back before rule of 3 stopped guard spamming heavy weapon teams). Alaitoc flyers and 3++ Castellans just aren't vulnerable enough to lascannons while ravagers are better dealt with via autocannon and that's about it for popular top table vehicles.

[Lemondish]

So did he take a calculated risk that the meta would have swung to anti-horde weaponry and the odds of seeing 48 lascannons was reduced? Or is Guilliman just so efficient with the FW models that he can lose a 300 point model every shooting phase and still stay above water?

 

This is from a post on Reddit regarding the general in question: 

 

I have had the pleasure of playing against Thomas Byrd a few times, both in various events and at his home store Gigabytes.

IMHO, this is a list that requires lots of reps and a very good general to pilot it. Thomas has been playing this list, or very close variations of it for years now.

He has put in the time and effort to have a game plan for just about every list he comes up against, and that's what makes this list work. It isn't something that someone can pick up and play.

 

It sounds much more like the strength of this force is skewed much more towards the guy piloting it rather than the list itself. I imagine that last point is pretty true.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d like to see what he was paired up against each round. You can’t discount his performance whether or not you like his list or not .

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

So did he take a calculated risk that the meta would have swung to anti-horde weaponry and the odds of seeing 48 lascannons was reduced? Or is Guilliman just so efficient with the FW models that he can lose a 300 point model every shooting phase and still stay above water?

 

This is from a post on Reddit regarding the general in question: 

 

I have had the pleasure of playing against Thomas Byrd a few times, both in various events and at his home store Gigabytes.

IMHO, this is a list that requires lots of reps and a very good general to pilot it. Thomas has been playing this list, or very close variations of it for years now.

He has put in the time and effort to have a game plan for just about every list he comes up against, and that's what makes this list work. It isn't something that someone can pick up and play.

 

It sounds much more like the strength of this force is skewed much more towards the guy piloting it rather than the list itself. I imagine that last point is pretty true.

 

Curious.  Don't see that much in Warhammer.  Good on that guy!

[Prot]

Leviathan + Guilliman is extremely popular in tournament play.  He makes it just incredibly efficient. Even GT's are loaded with that combo. Anything over 1500 points. Just go down any of the top Codex Marine finishers in the last year (especially since Raven Guard nerf) and you'll see Forgeworld + Guilliman.

 

I used to really, really enjoy having Guilliman available in 40K on the table top. Now I despise it. It gives people a false sense of 'marine competence' and I think to a large degree it prevents GW from fixing marines. There are just so many tournaments where there isn't a Codex Astartes marine player in sight... until you look for Guilliman.  But I suppose this is true of any 'marine' based army.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe they should give Guilliman 12 wounds. Sounds like a buff but is actually a nerf, since he'd be targetable, but 12 wounds and 3+ invulnerable would still work reasonable. Maybe it needs work but that's a rough way to fix him.

[Lemondish]

I’d like to see what he was paired up against each round. You can’t discount his performance whether or not you like his list or not .

 

I don't think anybody is discounting his performance - in fact we're specifically highlighting it as noteworthy. 

 

But here's the pairing information I could find...

 

Round 1 - Thousand Sons/Chaos Daemons

A TSons Detachment with Ahriman, Daemon Prince, Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, some Cultists, and a 10 man Rubric unit. This was run alongside a Chaos undivided detachment with a Bloodletter bomb, some horrors, some Exalted Flamers, and a Burning Chariot. 

Round 2 - (the absolute worst looking list written on a bloody napkin I've ever seen) Imperial Soup

Cadian battalion with a company commander, tank commander, guardsmen, some sentinels, a couple HWT, and some Leman Russes. A BA Batt with the standard smash cap shenanigans but add in a Libby Dread. MT Batt with Scion and Scion command squads. 

Round 3 - Chaos Soup

Thousand Sons with Ahriman, a Sorceror, 3 big blobs of Tzaangors along with Morty, and a DG Vanguard with Contemptors and some poxwalkers. Lots of bodies. 

Round 4 - (the absolute best looking list written on a bloody napkin I've ever seen) Orks

Basically boyz upon boyz upon boyz with weirdboyz and some smasha guns

Round 5 - can't seem to find his opponent here, but according to BCP he won! Yay!

 

Interestingly he mostly ran into a bunch of obsec bodies with few perfect targets for those Sicarans. The scout bikers, the Levi, and Gman himself probably had a field day, though. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Thanks for finding and sharing that information with us .

[Ishagu]

Maybe they should give Guilliman 12 wounds. Sounds like a buff but is actually a nerf, since he'd be targetable, but 12 wounds and 3+ invulnerable would still work reasonable. Maybe it needs work but that's a rough way to fix him.

Only if they reduce his cost to 100 points. He'll be dead turn 1 every game.

He's a monster, can't hide well or deploy in vehicles or reserves. It's an utterly crushing nerf that will relegate him to the shelf for the remainder of the edition. No thanks.

 

He's not actually too strong, and Marines aren't doing particularly well even with him. Lists like this are an exception and not the rule. If you look at the LVO a Salamander list performed better than all the Ultramarines at the event. So one Ultras list made it to the top 8. Did it win the event? Where did Ultras place at the LVO or London GT or Last Chace Open or any other big event?

 

Nerfs should only ever come to units that are everywhere and consistently found at top tables. But even that is flawed because you can get to the top 8 by getting super lucky with matchups and by using a gimmick anti meta-list. They should actually be looking at win/loss ratios as well.

 

What Marines need are other viable tactics and methods of play. Guilliman makes Ultramarines really good at shooting. That's great.

Give us an Iron Hands method of play that makes units super durable. Give us a way to reliably and cheaply get into CC and actually do damage there, etc

[Captain Idaho]

I'm an Ultramarines fan but he is pretty good.

 

I'd concede if Marines were made more powerful on the table then he wouldn't be as much of an auto include.

[Ishagu]

Yeah, he's good. He's not great.

 

There are armies with such amazing damage potential and strats they don't need a bubble to bolster them.

 

Marines need to function better in other ways. If we had viable assault we'd see different types of lists for example.

 

I think Guilliman can make a crap list serviceable, but there's no marine list with or without him that can conquer the meta, and there armies that will always get the better of Astartes.

[Captain Idaho]

Comes back to all that Codex Space Marines Amendments I banged on about. Seriously GW - employ me!

Lol

[Lemondish]

I'm an Ultramarines fan but he is pretty good.

 

I'd concede if Marines were made more powerful on the table then he wouldn't be as much of an auto include.

 

I imagine that would make him an auto-include. 

 

His impact is such that any increase in capability for a marine list that can include him would be better with him involved. 

 

Ultimately what needs to happen is that baseline marines get better, and his aura gets retooled. Right now, he just makes everything he buffs so much better. He turns weak units into viable units, and good units into great ones. If all marine units got better, he'd make them even stronger. This is all because rerolling all failed wound rolls is just so strong. 

 

The way to fix Gman so he isn't such a huge component for Ultras is to make his aura impact less, his cost less, and the units he buffs better. I would strongly suggest everything about him remain the same except that wound reroll aura - turn it into the LT one (reroll 1s to wound) and drop his points. He's already a great package with the Chapter Master hit reroll, his melee profile, the 3 CP he brings along, and the movement speed aura.

 

But doing this now would just depress marines even further. Everything else needs to get stronger. 

 

Or failing that, every other codex marine force needs to have access to a force multiplier as capable as that reroll all wounds is. 

[Ishagu]

But he can't move fast. We need to Bolster units that he can't keep up with - basically anything that flies or teleports and isn't based solely around shooting from a distance.

 

And we need other chapter tactics and strategems to be more compelling beyond Raven Guard.

If another chapter was really, really good in CC or durability then Guilliman becomes only one of many viable tools.

Imagine there's a chapter tactic that adds +2 to assault distance, grants extra attacks to units in close combat and combine that with strats to allow extra things to teleport in. Sounds amazing, right? Dreads teleporting in and charging, alongside Terminators and other units.

Orks can do it right now. Such an upgrade would improve the army in a different way from Guilliman and allow for new methods of play.

[Tamiel]

Guilliman is good where he is. He is one of the only things in this game that rewards mono-lists (his best aura rewards only Ultramarines) and that is extremely healthy for this game. On one end of the spectrum is soup, and on the other is mono-lists. Right now, there are many things that benefit soup lists, many advantages that they can have. Units like Guilliman, who rewards mono-lists, is exactly what this game needs more of right now. There are already enough good reasons to soup, GW must now give us some good reasons to mono.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would never use Guilliman because he’s such a crutch but I’m certainly beholden against anyone that fields him. I’m sure he’d be a lot of fun to play.

[Lemondish]

But he can't move fast. We need to Bolster units that he can't keep up with - basically anything that flies or teleports and isn't based solely around shooting from a distance.

 

And we need other chapter tactics and strategems to be more compelling beyond Raven Guard.

If another chapter was really, really good in CC or durability then Guilliman becomes only one of many viable tools.

Imagine there's a chapter tactic that adds +2 to assault distance, grants extra attacks to units in close combat and combine that with strats to allow extra things to teleport in. Sounds amazing, right? Dreads teleporting in and charging, alongside Terminators and other units.

Orks can do it right now. Such an upgrade would improve the army in a different way from Guilliman and allow for new methods of play.

 

His mobility is irrelevant - it's the price you pay for a unit that important to success. You'll make it work. Move aggressively like Mr. Byrd did and you'll find you can keep units within his 6'' aura (which is surprisingly large considering his base size) with his standard 8'' move and additional 2'' - 7'' advance. I have honestly never heard someone seriously complain about Gman's speed before. I think that's a pretty minor nitpick given what he brings. Hell he's a Chapter Master that brings you 3 CP instead of costing you 3 CP...

 

I'm telling you right now, if I could bring Gman in any non Ultra force, BA/DA/SW/CF I would. I absolutely 100% would. Movement or not, he'll make my list better in all ways. That is NOT an acceptable place for this character to be, and the real culprit is that it's the reroll wound aura. He makes fishing for MWs from snipers trivial. He makes things that spit bullets amazing tools for threatening even armour. He makes every unit under his aura much more powerful before he even contributes. For an army lacking in numbers, and therefore shots, Gman makes every shot mean much, much more. 

 

If such a force you describe existed, I would want to run Gman with it. The fact that he's considered a crutch is telling - he's propping up a force that would otherwise have no business on the table. He was the linchpin that made Reece's old Ultra list function. He's the reason Nanavati's Ultra 2.0 list functions. He's the reason Byrd's 7th at Adepticon list functioned. Without the ability to convert all these failed hits and wounds into an armour test, Marines end up being much weaker. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

8" movement is awesome.

[Ishagu]

Guilliman is good where he is. He is one of the only things in this game that rewards mono-lists (his best aura rewards only Ultramarines) and that is extremely healthy for this game. On one end of the spectrum is soup, and on the other is mono-lists. Right now, there are many things that benefit soup lists, many advantages that they can have. Units like Guilliman, who rewards mono-lists, is exactly what this game needs more of right now. There are already enough good reasons to soup, GW must now give us some good reasons to mono.

This is a very good point.

 

Also let's not forget that plenty of factions see a particular sub faction or model within dominate. Alaitoc Eldar anyone? Apparently 85%+ Eldar lists use their rules and this is backed up by vast data gathered over thousands of games. Has anyone seen Ynnari without Yvraine? How about Custodes without a Shield Captain on jetbike?

 

People make a fuss because it's Guilliman and he's an Ultramarine. Why is Guilliman more of a problem than Alaitoc Eldar? He's not even anywhere near to being as dominating on the tabletop as they are in terms of power. Strong units and rules repeat all across the meta in every faction.

 

We should be championing anything that encourages a single faction list. Instead of attacking it we need to push for other such rules, units and tactics across more factions. I think that this won't be a problem forever as more models and factions get released and expanded, but it's unfortunately a matter of patience and time.