Ultramarines made Top 8 of Adepticon!

[Lemondish]

Okay, I understand. I might even be a little convinced.

 

But it's bloody ultra smurfs (unintelligible grumbling).

 

Serious now - I want my fists to be as capable, and the easiest way to do that without killing Ultras is to shift some of the power from GMan and into the rest of the units that everyone can take. I want a force multiplier as capable as Gman, in whatever form it exists in.

 

For starters I'll take a Primaris Pedro.

 

You've convinced me that a unit that encourages sticking to a single faction is an alright place to be. I just don't think it's the best place to be.

[Ishagu]

Boost the Crimson Fists without nerfing anyone else. Build up to a higher level, never tear down to a lower one.

 

Primaris Pedro. Absolutely, I want to see this character! Give the CF even more unique tools to make them perform in a distinct but powerful way.

 

Guilliman is great in the regard of encouraging a single faction as he's only worthwhile if you maximise the army around him. I'd say we need more stuff like this. Imagine the Sanguinor grants more attacks, and because he's a warp entity his aura's effect is more powerful if the BA forces around him are more numerous. Something like that

[happyslugger]

 

Maybe they should give Guilliman 12 wounds. Sounds like a buff but is actually a nerf, since he'd be targetable, but 12 wounds and 3+ invulnerable would still work reasonable. Maybe it needs work but that's a rough way to fix him.

Only if they reduce his cost to 100 points. He'll be dead turn 1 every game.

He's a monster, can't hide well or deploy in vehicles or reserves. It's an utterly crushing nerf that will relegate him to the shelf for the remainder of the edition. No thanks.

 

He's not actually too strong, and Marines aren't doing particularly well even with him. Lists like this are an exception and not the rule. If you look at the LVO a Salamander list performed better than all the Ultramarines at the event. So one Ultras list made it to the top 8. Did it win the event? Where did Ultras place at the LVO or London GT or Last Chace Open or any other big event?

 

 

He'd be about as useful as Morty in a DG list then...except Morty is even more expensive and even harder to hide LOL

[Ishagu]

It's because of units like the Castellan. Morty is very durable with is invul and DG rolls.

 

If the Castellan couldn't ever be boosted to a 3++ then you'd see many more units on the tabletop as the Castellan could be destroyed far more easily.

[happyslugger]

Have to disagree there Ishagu.

 

My son gets far more mileage out of papasmurf than I ever get out of Morty.

 

All good fun trying though.

[Ishagu]

Yes but if Morty wasn't killed as often and was able to reach combat in every game?

 

But yes, different types of units. I'm general you get more mileage out of Death Guard than Ultras. DG perform better on the tabletop.

[happyslugger]

Yes but if Morty wasn't killed as often and was able to reach combat in every game?

 

Then he might be worth his points lol.

 

I don't play competitive so not sure how pure DG lists that include Morty are doing in the tournament environment...

 

Anyway, don't want to drag the thread off topic.

 

But I think Gman is pretty powerful for his points and if you ever do get to him, he has a 3+ inv and can stand back up after.....it can be very annoying to play against.  maybe he needs a point increase or more wounds ;-)

[Ishagu]

If Guilliman lists can beat the top lists then maybe. As if stands no.

 

And just because Morty isn't perfect in his function right now is no reason to nerf something else.

 

That's a terrible way of looking at things. Don't make others poorer, make everyone richer.

[Spinsanity]

My son gets far more mileage out of papasmurf than I ever get out of Morty.

 

All good fun trying though.

So just because Morty can get sniped means Guilliman should too?

[chapter master 454]

Okay, I understand. I might even be a little convinced.

 

But it's bloody ultra smurfs (unintelligible grumbling).

 

Serious now - I want my fists to be as capable, and the easiest way to do that without killing Ultras is to shift some of the power from GMan and into the rest of the units that everyone can take. I want a force multiplier as capable as Gman, in whatever form it exists in.

 

For starters I'll take a Primaris Pedro.

 

You've convinced me that a unit that encourages sticking to a single faction is an alright place to be. I just don't think it's the best place to be.

 

I hate to say this but it sounds more like you want your own version of Gulliman and are having some serious hypocrisy here relating to wanting a force multiplier here. By all accounts, right now the main reason people use ultramarines is because they have a disgustingly high proportion of all special characters for marines. Disgustingly high. They have (effectively) 3 versions of Calgar to chose from, Cassius, Tigerius, Telion and Cronus even before Gulliman became a thing. Granted most didn't see play competitively due to one reason or another but now we see Gulliman and Tigerius everywhere because they are such massive boosts to power. Tigerius giving out -1 to being hit is pretty boss because they aren't taking him for the psychic powers (if anything I would consider him a walking smokescreen dispenser which shows how powerful a unit that can hand out -1 without being able to be targeted is). Then we have G-man himself being a Chapter Master and Super Lieutenant all in one. By all accounts, the re-roll aura is so powerful it doesn't even bare thinking about and really, the big take away on that btw is the wounding part. Lets not even begin to start on the fact he hands out more CP while already saving you some (after all, the only way to get raw re-roll to hit was chapter master strat and it isn't even that good since re-roll 1s and re-roll to hit is near enough the same in marines).

 

Fun fact: if gravcannons were to have re-roll to wound base, they would be only marginally less effective than lascannons for anti-tank duty. Just to show the power of the re-rolling ALL wounds. Meanwhile another aspect to remember is that re-rolling 1s only improves damage output proportional to how well you were going to wound it anyway. The less effective the fire, the less effective re-roll 1 effects become (in fact, re-roll 1 effects are nice but function better as insurance policies than damage boosters).

 

As for Imperial Fists being a little lack lustre for your taste, I will have you know I am running them with experiments focused around their bolter drill strat comboed with various units such as veteran intercessors and centurions while supporting them with ether a rhino primaris or as I am doing now, support them with shadowspear target priority warlord trait to help trigger bolter drill on 2+ while also making re-roll 1 effects basically a re-roll all failed hits.

To cap it off, I use a siegebreaker cohort with indominatable which is really REALLY good btw, try it. Cover bonus to all units around a captain who doesn't move along with ignoring morale. Makes the centurions extremely hard to knock, even with lascannon fire.

 

Don't look to what others have, look to what you can do. You seem to be knocking imperial fists ignoring cover as a poor ability. It isn't, especially against armies who REALLY need it and even against other marines it is a massive boon. The only thing I can knock about Imperial Fists is their relic and trait (warlord) isn't that great however really only the relic is complete meh (not trash, just meh really) and the trait would combo very nicely with the siegebreaker trait, making it even harder to knock cover saves off standard marines.

Ultramarines by all accounts have a chapter tactic that only works when things have gone south, a relic that is fairly niche in use (though again, it is meh but like the imperial fist pistol isn't bad) and their stratagem is largely forgotten due to the fact that marines have enough re-roll bubbles to never really need such a stratagem and when used on the target units isn't much more effective than a re-roll 1 due to now only counting 2s (so you get 1/6th more re-rolls). Really, Ultramarines lack in the back they make up for in the front with their characters.

 

Raven Guard are certainly strong due to their chapter tactics and arguably their character is among the best outside of ultramarines (only matched by Crimson Fists due to the fact their characters have chapter master built in, thus saving you 3CP) and so will always have something to work with. Their relic isn't exactly amazing but then again, Shrike helps compensate for a poor relic and their stratagem is still pretty good. Can't remember their warlord trait off the top of my head.

 

Crimson Fists are no slouches ether though I cannot say much about them, apparently they got an index addition to their stuff and I don't know where to find it. All I will say is any chapter that has a chapter master special character is not to be slept on.

 

Salamanders are strong just inherently from their tactics, having each squad have their own personal re-roll once per turn for a hit and wound roll is pretty good. Especially since it aides in securing critical hits. After all, lascannons LOVE to roll 2s when you really needed to ice that tank. Their relic and trait however only belong in fringe case builds, something that is fair since their chapter tactic is very powerful by itself but hey, I love the idea of a gravis captain being T6! (and as I have spoken about, you can get a land raider excelisor to T10 with their relic and psychic support). Not to mention their stratagem when worked with like the imperial fists one can be extremely devastating when played with. +1 to wounds is monstrous, as my experience with sternguard using their +1 to wound strat has shown. But put that on flamers? That is going to be fairly sore. Yea, hard to find units that can bring the weapons en mass. Their Special Character isn't too shabby ether, handing out re-rolls for flamers and meltas if I remember right, that can be a sure fire (heh) way to start getting some damage done.

 

White scars...well ok these guys are in need of some love...like...badly...like giving Khan his bike and actually letting them do their thing with bikes.

 

and there is another chapter here but I forget them. Not a big deal, don't think they are that important anyway. (heh)

 

 

Just saying that it seems a lot of people discount their own armies so quickly when it isn't making top 3. This is a marine player making top 8 and placed 7th in that grouping. Considering the size of the tournament getting top 20 would be an achievement in my opinion and from the looks of it, it is fairly diverse for a tournament scene.

[Ishagu]

I happen to agree that a lot of the chapters are lacking additional flavour because they lack characters.

 

The vanilla codex is Ultramarine centric, it was purely an Ultramarine book prior to 5th edition? Or was it 4th? That has kind of remained that way.

 

I think the other chapters should have a supplement book with lots of additional rules and lore, unique units as well as restricted access to some generic stuff for extra flavour, but that's unlikely to happen.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't like Hero Hammer personally and I also feel like reroll hits and wounds, while nice as a benefit, doesn't feel like leadership qualities much. I get that it's representative of units being directed to do things, but it just doesn't feel like leadership.

[Ishagu]

I love hero hammer. The setting is so "larger than life" that it fits nicely, in my personal opinion.

 

It's why Abaddon, Magnus, Guilliman, etc are so popular. People love these guys and the lore built around them.

 

In effect all Astartes are Heroes. Astra Militarum function as one of the best "no hero" armies, as they can run commanders who bolster units yet offer nothing in terms of combat ability, and everyone and everything is disposable.

Orks, Eldar, Nids, Chaos, etc all have larger than life hero characters in most lists they run, be it a generic powerhouse created with wargear and relics or a named character.

[Captain Idaho]

Correction... They have the SAME larger than life heroes in the list they run.

[Lemondish]

Boost the Crimson Fists without nerfing anyone else. Build up to a higher level, never tear down to a lower one.

 

Primaris Pedro. Absolutely, I want to see this character! Give the CF even more unique tools to make them perform in a distinct but powerful way.

 

Guilliman is great in the regard of encouraging a single faction as he's only worthwhile if you maximise the army around him. I'd say we need more stuff like this. Imagine the Sanguinor grants more attacks, and because he's a warp entity his aura's effect is more powerful if the BA forces around him are more numerous. Something like that

 

Ultimately the goal wasn't to tear down anybody. A boost to all marines would actually help Ultramarines as well. I don't know how you came to that conclusion from what I posted - that is not my intention. 

 

I see no reason why Ultras should be lower tier without Gman and somewhat viable with him. For armies without Gman, they're always lower tier. If you move some of the power from Gman into the main force itself, then you end up achieving more from a balancing perspective. 

 

Right now it's almost impossible to make marine units more powerful than they are today without affecting the relationship they have with Gman. Shifting some of that power away from Gman means his effect is less acute. That's all I'm saying. 

 

 

Okay, I understand. I might even be a little convinced.

 

But it's bloody ultra smurfs (unintelligible grumbling).

 

Serious now - I want my fists to be as capable, and the easiest way to do that without killing Ultras is to shift some of the power from GMan and into the rest of the units that everyone can take. I want a force multiplier as capable as Gman, in whatever form it exists in.

 

For starters I'll take a Primaris Pedro.

 

You've convinced me that a unit that encourages sticking to a single faction is an alright place to be. I just don't think it's the best place to be.

 

I hate to say this but it sounds more like you want your own version of Gulliman and are having some serious hypocrisy here relating to wanting a force multiplier here. 

 

 

They aren't mutually exclusive solutions. I think the BETTER solution is to move some of the power Gman brings into baseline marines so that he isn't always an auto-include part of an Ultra force, but that doesn't mean every other marine force getting their own version of the Gman effect wouldn't also work. Whether that's a clone or another major faction locked unit with a big aura effect is kind of irrelevant - if marines are being balanced around the idea that Gman could be available to help them reroll literally everything, then every other marine faction will be at a disadvantage unless they can gain something else with the 400 points they 'save'.

 

Right now, that something else they can acquire isn't enough. From a flavour perspective, I'd obviously rather everybody get a powerful Gman style force multiplier specific to their fighting style, but realistically that is so unlikely to happen that it isn't really worth the time to think about it. 

[Ishagu]

Gman hasn't been top of the meta for 16 months but people still complain about him. Anti Ultra sentiments is everywhere ;-P

 

Truth is Guilliman AND various Astartes units both need a buff.

[Tamiel]

For real. As an Ultramarine fan over the years, I have to say the worst part of the 40k community is the constant hate that some people make about Ultramarines.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Totally agreed it’s not like we are eldar level cheesy cheese.

[happyslugger]

 

My son gets far more mileage out of papasmurf than I ever get out of Morty.

 

All good fun trying though.

So just because Morty can get sniped means Guilliman should too?

For the difference in points....yes :-)

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think Guilliman needs a buff.

 

If I'm really honest I'd say 400pts, count him as 3-4 models in a Land Raider and boost his wounds to 12 and that's a balanced model who can't be shot easily on the way if you pay the points yet is very powerful once in close combat.

 

Remember he can use Honour Guard to soak wounds or even Company Veterans too. (I'd like those rules to be interception of hits rather than a silly mortal wound mechanic)

 

Which is what a bunch of people seem to forget when they consider the possibility to shoot him.

 

***

 

State of play... I think Ultramarines are doing okay. We're not breaking tournaments but in a less competitive (but still semi competitive environment) we are playing fun games.

 

I like the Victrix Guard Detachment. It enables Ultramarines (presuming mono faction lists) to use a powerful close combat punch whilst still retaining traditional Ultramarine fire support. Very combined arms!

 

I'm trying it out in a tournament come June and we'll see. In the mean time I'm practicing against competitive players with it. Got a match tomorrow that should be a real test.

[Ishagu]

Nah, Guilliman is a 9 wound guy. He's the same size as Abaddon.

 

No need to nerf him. You don't nerf units unless they break the meta. He should always be a big deal, but the truth is you don't see him that much anymore.

 

Ynnari break the meta, Castellans too (hate to say it as I own a beauty). I'd even argue against nerfing those. Just need to create more answers for them.

 

 

I suggest you all download the BCP app and you'll see how lists perform at events, game by game. The only thing any Astartes faction should be receiving is boosts.

[Captain Idaho]

Guilliman would break the game if you boosted Marines up to how we all discussed previously.

 

Though I must admit my post didn't stipulate that I feel the limit to Guilliman should come along with a boost to Marines.

[Ishagu]

Not at all. Boost Marines so they can compete at the top. Is that bad?

I'm not suggesting for one second that they should rule the tabletop.

 

But this should be done alongside improvements across the board to other chapters. We need characters with rules that provide buffs beyond re rolls to hit. How about characters who improve charge distance, or improve weapon range, or improve durability, etc

[Captain Idaho]

But the problem is, which most people who are actually Ultramarines fans agree on, is boosting Marines to be competitive means with Guilliman they'd be obscene.

 

It's been stated and mostly agreed that Guilliman makes average units competitive, so what would competitive units be turned into with Guilliman?

 

***

 

I otherwise agree that Marines need boosts. My own Codex Space Marines Amendments would have helped greatly with that. Guilliman could have been left to see how everything coped without changing him first then changes to him could come after measured data.

 

I certainly don't think the character centric method has been good for the game but it actually makes sense with sales so GW would like to keep it. Look at Genestealer Cult characters for an example how lots of characters exist.

 

Which could be our salvation too. Marine characters doing more substantial things to the troops and units around them would potentially help GW sales and also boost Marines to boot.

 

But that is going far off tangent.

 

***

 

Ishagu - I certainly am not contesting Marines are not performing well in the big tournaments without FW, Guilliman and skewed lists. I agree we certainly are not. But I also don't think that's the only metric to go by.

 

Tournaments that use the CA2018 missions seem to be moving to a more balanced approach. I dislike ITC as an approach because it's purely Kill Hammer and quick scoring for 2 turn games. Yawn fest and not even close the most common way to play.

 

And competitive enough against the local meta is also sufficient though of course difficult to judge.

[Ishagu]

Guilliman lists that perform well are the exception and not the rule. 1 list in the top 30 at Adepticon isn't skewing anything.