Miscellaneous Vigilus Thoughts

[BrainFireBob]

Various first impressions I haven't seen discussed I wanted to pitch out. Just reviewed my copy today.

 

The Red Corsair stratagem only says "within 6" of the table edge." Seeing buzz about using this to replenish a unit, but I don't see any reason it can't be used T1 to teleport a unit to the opponent's board edge? Combined with their advance and charge ability, doesn't it open up turn 1 charges? Add to host raptorial, that's a +3 to their charge range. Need a minimum 6" charge in that instance.

 

The Flawless Host: Between DttFE and Death to the Imperfect, with the warlord trait and relic- that's a beyond insane CC blender. Put him in a host raptorial detachment, with a thunderhammer, doesn't he beat Captain Smash?

 

Relics. If I am reading this correctly, I can take a Renegade Warlord in 1 detachment, then take a Black Legion Detachment, burn 3 CP, and take 2 additional Relics of the legion, with the "extra" being over 0? Can I also take the specialist formation relic, for a total of 4?

[Doom Herald]

What you say about the Red Corsairs seems right. I'm not sure I'd want to use 3 CP for the movement though.

 

Well, since I spent all of 7th as a Crimson Slaughter player, this book had my hopes up. The Crimson Slaughter trait seems borderline useless to me. The Warlord Trait seems to counteract it since a unit that dies to morale doesn't trigger the Warband trait. The blade of the relentless seems decent though. Kill 1 model, get auto-wound is nice, 1 damage per is eh though. At 2 CP, I don't think I'll even use the strategem.

 

I like that Warp Talons are viable through the Host Raptorialwarlord trait though. And Brazen Beasts seem brutal.

 

Fallen transports are nice, as are sorcerers, but because they lose HERETIC ASTARTES, you will either be buffing non-fallen or using them as pure psychic offense.

[Brother Aiwass]

Brazen Beasts look really funny for melee. Specially in a Demonkin detachment.

 

Daemon Prince with talons, wings, Elixir, Carve the Runes, Demonic Strength
Master of Possession with Cursed Earth and Infernal Power, Demonkin WT
Dark Apostle with Souleater Portent
Greater Possessed
2x20 khornate Possessed with IoW

Of course there are a lot of thing that need to happen for this to work at 100% but if the stars are right you have a possessed unit with 4++,  60 attacks (average, 1D3+1) of S7, rending on 5+ (AP -4), dealing MWs on 6, re-rolling 1s to hit and wound. And can fight twice.

[MasterDeath]

Various first impressions I haven't seen discussed I wanted to pitch out. Just reviewed my copy today.

 

The Red Corsair stratagem only says "within 6" of the table edge." Seeing buzz about using this to replenish a unit, but I don't see any reason it can't be used T1 to teleport a unit to the opponent's board edge? Combined with their advance and charge ability, doesn't it open up turn 1 charges? Add to host raptorial, that's a +3 to their charge range. Need a minimum 6" charge in that instance.

 

The Flawless Host: Between DttFE and Death to the Imperfect, with the warlord trait and relic- that's a beyond insane CC blender. Put him in a host raptorial detachment, with a thunderhammer, doesn't he beat Captain Smash?

 

Relics. If I am reading this correctly, I can take a Renegade Warlord in 1 detachment, then take a Black Legion Detachment, burn 3 CP, and take 2 additional Relics of the legion, with the "extra" being over 0? Can I also take the specialist formation relic, for a total of 4?

 

Red Corsairs: Yes you can set the unit up in your opoonents deployment zone, as long as his models are 9"+ away. No advance and charge does not help, as the stratagem is used at end of movement. They cannot advance at this time anymore. The Host raptorial Trait also does not help as it works only on jump pack units in the host raptorial and you can only recycle Chaos Space Marine units with it. They are the only unit with the "Chaos Space Marine" Tag.

 

Relics: You do not get a free relic for specialist Detachement, just one more as an option.

 

Crimson Slaughter: The Trait is ok, not not as good as the others. The Stratagem on the other hand is extremely good. 3" around a terrain piece in 12" of one of your units. There is no maximal size for the choosen terrain piece, so you could debuff a good part of the army.

[MasterDeath]

Brazen Beasts look really funny for melee. Specially in a Demonkin detachment.

 

Daemon Prince with talons, wings, Elixir, Carve the Runes, Demonic Strength

Master of Possession with Cursed Earth and Infernal Power, Demonkin WT

Dark Apostle with Souleater Portent

Greater Possessed

2x20 khornate Possessed with IoW

 

Of course there are a lot of thing that need to happen for this to work at 100% but if the stars are right you have a possessed unit with 4++,  60 attacks (average, 1D3+1) of S7, rending on 5+ (AP -4), dealing MWs on 6, re-rolling 1s to hit and wound. And can fight twice.

 

How about that: Khorne possessed of the flawless Host, a Herald with Crimson Crown. +2 Attacks per 6 to hit, +1 A if the target is imperium. +1 S and reroll charge. Just for the Herald.

[Panzer]

The Flawless Host: Between DttFE and Death to the Imperfect, with the warlord trait and relic- that's a beyond insane CC blender. Put him in a host raptorial detachment, with a thunderhammer, doesn't he beat Captain Smash?

No Thunderhammer. The -1 to-hit would make you unable to trigger the effects without having cast prescience or something on him. Instead go for a Daemon Prince and give him the Elixir and Talons for maximum awesomeness. ;)

[Doom Herald]

As far as the Red Corsairs strategem, page 162 of the (new) CSM Codex states that any unit with a <LEGION> keyword is a Chaos Space Marine unit. I would have read that strategem as any unit that's a CSM under that definition.

[Cheex]

As far as the Red Corsairs strategem, page 162 of the (new) CSM Codex states that any unit with a <LEGION> keyword is a Chaos Space Marine unit. I would have read that strategem as any unit that's a CSM under that definition.

 

The stratagem states CHAOS SPACE MARINES using the keyword typeface and all caps. It's definitely referring to the keyword, not the "Chaos Space Marines" definition on p162.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah a stratagem that lets you bring back at full strength a unit of 20 possessed or 3 obliterators is not balanced in the slightest, it's clearly just for basic marines. 

[Minsc]

A Flawless Host Daemon Prince with the Ultimate Confidence-trait, two Talons, +1 A (from either Elixir or Flawless Cloak) and +1 to hit (Prescience) will on average get 17,11 attacks against non-imperium and 20,22 attacks against imperium.
Add Daemonic Strength for overkill.

Smash-captain eat your heart out...

On a different note, did I read "Khorne" and "Flawless Host" in the same sentence?
I mean sure, it's legal, but it's is such a severe case of fluff-crush that you should be ashamed.

[Doom Herald]

A Flawless Host Daemon Prince with the Ultimate Confidence-trait, two Talons, +1 A (from either Elixir or Flawless Cloak) and +1 to hit (Prescience) will on average get 17,11 attacks against non-imperium and 20,22 attacks against imperium.

Add Daemonic Strength for overkill.

 

Smash-captain eat your heart out...

 

On a different note, did I read "Khorne" and "Flawless Host" in the same sentence?

I mean sure, it's legal, but it's is such a severe case of fluff-crush that you should be ashamed.

I assumed they did make it illegal. I guess they didn't learn their lesson from the brief time periods in 8th that World Eaters sorcerers were technically legal.

 

To be fair, they did much better this time around, even with the screw ups, than they did with the Index and first Codex.

[Minsc]

Yeah I assumed so too at first, but I've seen nothing in Vigilus Ablaze that restricts Flawless Host to Mark of Slaanesh, Brazen Beasts to Mark of Khorne, The Scourged to Mark of Tzeentch or The Purge to Mark of Nurgle.

 

[Cheex]

My guess is that the Renegade Chapter Traits are meant to represent archetypes, rather than necessarily be tied to the specific Chapters they're named after. Unlike Legion Traits, Renegade Traits actually do have a clause stating that if your Chapter doesn't have an associated trait, then you can use the trait that best suits it.

 

If you want to make a fluffy Brazen Beasts army, by all means limit yourself to the Mark of Khorne. But if you want to make the Emperor's Wiggles, a renegade Chapter of sadistic sociopaths obsessed with bright colours and catchy tunes, by all means take the Purge trait and load up on Noise Marines.

[MegaVolt87]

Unpopular opinion- all these renegade rules/ detachments could have been general not locked or limited so anyone could take them. The showcase/ promo/ marketing could have just been GW shoehorning in renegades like they did the legions (IW with devastation battery for example). There is no Red Corsairs dedicated unit/ upgrade box, why was that bunch of new rules just for them etc. Renegades would be better off with a WD article like the Crimson Fists did to flesh them out much better. 

[Doom Herald]

Beyond this, the precise mechanics by which being a Renegade works isn't spelled out, unless I missed it, only implied. Can you make a single unit, for example, CRIMSON SLAUGHTER and use the Warlord Trait, or Relic in a mixed HERETIC ASTARTES detachment? Technically I don't think it's ever spelled out that CRIMSON SLAUGHTER is a <LEGION> replacement.

[Cheex]

Beyond this, the precise mechanics by which being a Renegade works isn't spelled out, unless I missed it, only implied. Can you make a single unit, for example, CRIMSON SLAUGHTER and use the Warlord Trait, or Relic in a mixed HERETIC ASTARTES detachment? Technically I don't think it's ever spelled out that CRIMSON SLAUGHTER is a <LEGION> replacement.

 

When you add a unit to your roster, you can replace <LEGION> with anything you like (within reason - see the Designer's Commentary document for the core rules). You can make the unit WORLD EATERS, IRON WARRIORS, CRIMSON SLAUGHTER or BEANIE BABIES if you like. This is explained in the <LEGION> keyword rules.

 

If every unit in the detachment has the same <LEGION> keyword and that keyword matches one of the Legion or Renegade Traits, the detachment gains that trait. If it doesn't, then you can choose a Renegade Trait that fits. This was expanded upon in Vigilus Ablaze.

[Doom Herald]

Ok, but now, does this mean I can have a single CS Lord in a HERETIC ASTARTES dettachment and give him the CS warlord trait, or does it have to be a whole dettachment to use Renegade rules? Some parts of the Vigilus Ablaze even indicate your army has to be a Renegade chapter to use the rules.

[Doom Herald]

Page 196, under "Using Renegade Chapters..." says if you have any "renegade chapter dettachments," you can use the following rules.

 

Same page, under "Renegade Traits" states that if your "army is taken from renegade chapters."

 

So, we have an unfortunate case where RAW says you need an entire Renegade dettachment to use any Renegade rules and the rules for using Renegade Traits says you need an entire Renegade army. I'm sure RAI is different, but we don't know what that is. So, again, I don't know if I can have a lone Renegade Character with a Renegade Warlord Trait in a mixed HERETIC ASTARTES dettachment.

[Gordon Shumway]

I don't think it's any different from previously taking a night lords detatchment and a world eaters detatchment in a single army. If my character makes up part of the night lords detatchment, he gets access to night lords traits, relics, etc. but not world eaters stuff. Why would you even want a generic Heretic asrartes lord?

[Doom Herald]

I don't think it's any different from previously taking a night lords detatchment and a world eaters detatchment in a single army. If my character makes up part of the night lords detatchment, he gets access to night lords traits, relics, etc. but not world eaters stuff.

Probably the intent, but again, RAW says you need a full dettachment to use any Renegade rules on that page and a Renegade army to benefit from Renegade Traits. I hope RAI is that it is identical to Legion rules, it most likely is. But, they kind of butchered this one and I can already hear people telling me I can't use a single Crimson Slaughter unit in a mixed HERETIC ASTARTES army because the rules say so.

[Gordon Shumway]

But it doesn't say "your entire army", does it?

[Doom Herald]

But it doesn't say "your entire army", does it?

The rules for using renegade traits specify that your army must be.

 

Vigilus Ablaze, pg. 196, under Renegade Traits: "If your Chaos Space Marine army is taken from a Renegade Chapter..."

 

 

Using Renegade rules in general requires a Renegade dettachments.

 

Pg. 196, under Using a Renegade Chapters Army in Warhammer 40,000: "...if you have chosen to take any Renegade Chapter Dettachments. The following rules apply:"

 

Edit:

I'm going to point out right now that I don't feel the rules should or were intended to work this way. I can make deductive leaps. Rather, what I'm saying is this was written in a way that created unclear rules. Primarily rule lawyers and new players will have issue with this though, and both do exist.

 

That said, where I do have an issue of things being unclear is, can I use Warlord Traits and Relics for Renegades without need for a whole dettachments (by RAI), the way true Legions work, or do I need a whole dettachment, the way DG or TS would work, since this is a completely different source.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Good catch, Thanatos - some really inconsistent language from GW.  Given that the language elsewhere on p. 196 refers to detachments, I think the RAI is the Renegade Traits rule is supposed to apply to detachments not armies, but the RAW do not indicate that.

 

Incidentally, if the RAW is how the rule is supposed to work (so, the entire army has to be renegade to get the trait) that really shuts down the "Disloyal 17" CP farm using Red Corsair chaos space marine units in battalions to (somewhat) emulate what loyalists can do with their "Loyal 32" Astra Millitarum battalions.

 

Incidentally, my read on this is that the specific renegade traits replace the move & assault trait in the CSM codex - the discussions I've read on this board seem to assume that it is in addition to the CSM renegade trait.

[Wayniac]

Good catch, Thanatos - some really inconsistent language from GW.  Given that the language elsewhere on p. 196 refers to detachments, I think the RAI is the Renegade Traits rule is supposed to apply to detachments not armies, but the RAW do not indicate that.

 

Incidentally, if the RAW is how the rule is supposed to work (so, the entire army has to be renegade to get the trait) that really shuts down the "Disloyal 17" CP farm using Red Corsair chaos space marine units in battalions to (somewhat) emulate what loyalists can do with their "Loyal 32" Astra Millitarum battalions.

 

Incidentally, my read on this is that the specific renegade traits replace the move & assault trait in the CSM codex - the discussions I've read on this board seem to assume that it is in addition to the CSM renegade trait.

 

Firstly, if the Renegade trait requires the whole army rather than a detachment  I think that would be good, and MIGHT indicate why their traits seem way better than the Traitor Legions; you can't mix and match.  It would also kill the Heretical 17 in the womb (I am biased about this though).  However, this is GW so it could be either way.  Does anyone know or can check if that verbiage "If your <X> army is taken from a <Y>" is used in other codexes?

 

Apparently, the remaining part of the paragraph says the normal by detachment thing, so it's the same as normal.  Sadly.  I made the mistake of posting that question on the CSM facebook group and got flamed/called an idiot for not reading the rest of the paragraph.

 

Second, its pretty clear it replaces the advance & charge to me because the Red Corsair trait specifically says they can advance and charge, while none of the others say this.  That to me seems to mean only RC get it as part of their trait and the others replace it.

[Minsc]

How would people go about making a list featuring The Scourged?

A bunch of MSU CSM, Shooty-Chosen, Rubricae, Shooty-Helbrutes, Obliterators and Havoc's?

Basically play them like shooty-Salamanders but trading reliable to-wound rolls for a better overwatch?