Miscellaneous Vigilus Thoughts

[Brother Aiwass]

How would people go about making a list featuring The Scourged?

 

A bunch of MSU CSM, Shooty-Chosen, Rubricae, Shooty-Helbrutes, Obliterators and Havoc's?

 

Basically play them like shooty-Salamanders but trading reliable to-wound rolls for a better overwatch?

I'd go with spearhead.

 

Warpsmith

2x5 rotor havocs either in rhino or dreadclaw

1x5 lascannon havocs

1 leviathan with dual butcher or 2 lascannon dreads

[Lord Asvaldir]

I mean chainreapers are great weapons, but don't benefit a ton from the scourged trait. Single shot weapons like lascannons benefit more from the single reroll. 

 

I'd say for a scourged list, yeah MSU is definetly the way to go. Definitely want to spread out heavy weapons across marine squads as much as possible, though havocs are going to be a good choice in any list including the scourged. Their relic is also very good, while you want to probably focus on a shooting oriented list forcing an enemy unit to strike last is mighty useful when you're say ganging up on a big scary unit with multiple smaller unit. Dark Eldar have a similar relic and it's been a huge help for me multiple times.  

[Brother Aiwass]

But they do benefit from the strat.

[Lord Asvaldir]

That's definetly true, no one is going to want to deep strike anything within 12" of 4 chainreaper cannons. 

[Doom Herald]

 

 

Good catch, Thanatos - some really inconsistent language from GW. Given that the language elsewhere on p. 196 refers to detachments, I think the RAI is the Renegade Traits rule is supposed to apply to detachments not armies, but the RAW do not indicate that.

 

Incidentally, if the RAW is how the rule is supposed to work (so, the entire army has to be renegade to get the trait) that really shuts down the "Disloyal 17" CP farm using Red Corsair chaos space marine units in battalions to (somewhat) emulate what loyalists can do with their "Loyal 32" Astra Millitarum battalions.

 

Incidentally, my read on this is that the specific renegade traits replace the move & assault trait in the CSM codex - the discussions I've read on this board seem to assume that it is in addition to the CSM renegade trait.

Firstly, if the Renegade trait requires the whole army rather than a detachment I think that would be good, and MIGHT indicate why their traits seem way better than the Traitor Legions; you can't mix and match. It would also kill the Heretical 17 in the womb (I am biased about this though). However, this is GW so it could be either way. Does anyone know or can check if that verbiage "If your <X> army is taken from a <Y>" is used in other codexes?

 

Apparently, the remaining part of the paragraph says the normal by detachment thing, so it's the same as normal. Sadly. I made the mistake of posting that question on the CSM facebook group and got flamed/called an idiot for not reading the rest of the paragraph.

 

Second, its pretty clear it replaces the advance & charge to me because the Red Corsair trait specifically says they can advance and charge, while none of the others say this. That to me seems to mean only RC get it as part of their trait and the others replace it.

I believe in there somewhere, it says you can either use Dark Reavers or the traits for Renegades from Vigilus II.

 

I really do hope it is clarified that your whole army need not be Renegades for the dettachments to benefit from the trait. More importantly, I hope we can use Renegade Relics and Warlord Traits without the need for a Renegade dettachment. They really should have included this in the new Codex to and just said you can use them to stand in for <LEGION>. They would work just like any other CSM group, other than TS and DG, like I'm sure they were meant to.

 

Anyone else notice Cultists don't get traits now? It seems like a good move to motivate using CSM squads, but they should have dropped the points back down in my opinion.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I think using renegade traits in a separate detachment is fine, that's how the faction rules have always worked so far and I just doubt it's being changed for vigilius. 

 

That being said you absolutely need a renegade detachment to take renegade warlord traits/relics. That's like wanting to take black legion relics without a black legion detachment, don't see how that's gonna happen. 

 

I did see that cultists don't get traits, seems to make a lot of sense to me honestly, mere mortals really aren't part of the legions/renegade chapters. Honestly I really still wish there was a separate codex for mortals/chaos guard, or that FW would update the lame index that currently exists for R&H and then there would be no need for cultists, but that's a whole other matter. 

[Wayniac]

 

 

Good catch, Thanatos - some really inconsistent language from GW. Given that the language elsewhere on p. 196 refers to detachments, I think the RAI is the Renegade Traits rule is supposed to apply to detachments not armies, but the RAW do not indicate that.

 

Incidentally, if the RAW is how the rule is supposed to work (so, the entire army has to be renegade to get the trait) that really shuts down the "Disloyal 17" CP farm using Red Corsair chaos space marine units in battalions to (somewhat) emulate what loyalists can do with their "Loyal 32" Astra Millitarum battalions.

 

Incidentally, my read on this is that the specific renegade traits replace the move & assault trait in the CSM codex - the discussions I've read on this board seem to assume that it is in addition to the CSM renegade trait.

Firstly, if the Renegade trait requires the whole army rather than a detachment I think that would be good, and MIGHT indicate why their traits seem way better than the Traitor Legions; you can't mix and match. It would also kill the Heretical 17 in the womb (I am biased about this though). However, this is GW so it could be either way. Does anyone know or can check if that verbiage "If your <X> army is taken from a <Y>" is used in other codexes?

 

Apparently, the remaining part of the paragraph says the normal by detachment thing, so it's the same as normal. Sadly. I made the mistake of posting that question on the CSM facebook group and got flamed/called an idiot for not reading the rest of the paragraph.

 

Second, its pretty clear it replaces the advance & charge to me because the Red Corsair trait specifically says they can advance and charge, while none of the others say this. That to me seems to mean only RC get it as part of their trait and the others replace it.

I believe in there somewhere, it says you can either use Dark Reavers or the traits for Renegades from Vigilus II.

 

I really do hope it is clarified that your whole army need not be Renegades for the dettachments to benefit from the trait. More importantly, I hope we can use Renegade Relics and Warlord Traits without the need for a Renegade dettachment. They really should have included this in the new Codex to and just said you can use them to stand in for <LEGION>. They would work just like any other CSM group, other than TS and DG, like I'm sure they were meant to.

 

Anyone else notice Cultists don't get traits now? It seems like a good move to motivate using CSM squads, but they should have dropped the points back down in my opinion.

 

 

It doesn't even need to be clarified.  The first sentence says "If your Chaos Space Marine army is taken from a Renegade Chapter" but right after it says

 

 

If you choose to use this supplement, and your army is Battle-forged, all Daemon Prince, INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units in a Chaos Space Marine Detachment gain a Renegade Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Renegade Chapter.

 

No clarification needed (sadly, I hoped it would be true so you wouldn't see mixing renegades).  Like I said I asked this on the CSM Facebook group after seeing the post here and was ridiculed, flamed and called an idiot for not reading the second part of it that clearly states it doesn't require the whole army.

[Doom Herald]

 

 

 

 

Good catch, Thanatos - some really inconsistent language from GW. Given that the language elsewhere on p. 196 refers to detachments, I think the RAI is the Renegade Traits rule is supposed to apply to detachments not armies, but the RAW do not indicate that.

 

Incidentally, if the RAW is how the rule is supposed to work (so, the entire army has to be renegade to get the trait) that really shuts down the "Disloyal 17" CP farm using Red Corsair chaos space marine units in battalions to (somewhat) emulate what loyalists can do with their "Loyal 32" Astra Millitarum battalions.

 

Incidentally, my read on this is that the specific renegade traits replace the move & assault trait in the CSM codex - the discussions I've read on this board seem to assume that it is in addition to the CSM renegade trait.

Firstly, if the Renegade trait requires the whole army rather than a detachment I think that would be good, and MIGHT indicate why their traits seem way better than the Traitor Legions; you can't mix and match. It would also kill the Heretical 17 in the womb (I am biased about this though). However, this is GW so it could be either way. Does anyone know or can check if that verbiage "If your <X> army is taken from a <Y>" is used in other codexes?

 

Apparently, the remaining part of the paragraph says the normal by detachment thing, so it's the same as normal. Sadly. I made the mistake of posting that question on the CSM facebook group and got flamed/called an idiot for not reading the rest of the paragraph.

 

Second, its pretty clear it replaces the advance & charge to me because the Red Corsair trait specifically says they can advance and charge, while none of the others say this. That to me seems to mean only RC get it as part of their trait and the others replace it.

I believe in there somewhere, it says you can either use Dark Reavers or the traits for Renegades from Vigilus II.

 

I really do hope it is clarified that your whole army need not be Renegades for the dettachments to benefit from the trait. More importantly, I hope we can use Renegade Relics and Warlord Traits without the need for a Renegade dettachment. They really should have included this in the new Codex to and just said you can use them to stand in for <LEGION>. They would work just like any other CSM group, other than TS and DG, like I'm sure they were meant to.

 

Anyone else notice Cultists don't get traits now? It seems like a good move to motivate using CSM squads, but they should have dropped the points back down in my opinion.

It doesn't even need to be clarified. The first sentence says "If your Chaos Space Marine army is taken from a Renegade Chapter" but right after it says

 

If you choose to use this supplement, and your army is Battle-forged, all Daemon Prince, INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units in a Chaos Space Marine Detachment gain a Renegade Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Renegade Chapter.

No clarification needed (sadly, I hoped it would be true so you wouldn't see mixing renegades). Like I said I asked this on the CSM Facebook group after seeing the post here and was ridiculed, flamed and called an idiot for not reading the second part of it that clearly states it doesn't require the whole army.

The first part is an "if statement:: "If your Chaos Space Marine ARMY is taken from a Renegade chapter..." what follows is "then statements." You can give a Renegade dettachment Renegade Traits "if your Chaos Space Marine army is taken from a Renegade Chapter.

[Wayniac]

 

 

 

 

Good catch, Thanatos - some really inconsistent language from GW. Given that the language elsewhere on p. 196 refers to detachments, I think the RAI is the Renegade Traits rule is supposed to apply to detachments not armies, but the RAW do not indicate that.

 

Incidentally, if the RAW is how the rule is supposed to work (so, the entire army has to be renegade to get the trait) that really shuts down the "Disloyal 17" CP farm using Red Corsair chaos space marine units in battalions to (somewhat) emulate what loyalists can do with their "Loyal 32" Astra Millitarum battalions.

 

Incidentally, my read on this is that the specific renegade traits replace the move & assault trait in the CSM codex - the discussions I've read on this board seem to assume that it is in addition to the CSM renegade trait.

Firstly, if the Renegade trait requires the whole army rather than a detachment I think that would be good, and MIGHT indicate why their traits seem way better than the Traitor Legions; you can't mix and match. It would also kill the Heretical 17 in the womb (I am biased about this though). However, this is GW so it could be either way. Does anyone know or can check if that verbiage "If your <X> army is taken from a <Y>" is used in other codexes?

 

Apparently, the remaining part of the paragraph says the normal by detachment thing, so it's the same as normal. Sadly. I made the mistake of posting that question on the CSM facebook group and got flamed/called an idiot for not reading the rest of the paragraph.

 

Second, its pretty clear it replaces the advance & charge to me because the Red Corsair trait specifically says they can advance and charge, while none of the others say this. That to me seems to mean only RC get it as part of their trait and the others replace it.

I believe in there somewhere, it says you can either use Dark Reavers or the traits for Renegades from Vigilus II.

 

I really do hope it is clarified that your whole army need not be Renegades for the dettachments to benefit from the trait. More importantly, I hope we can use Renegade Relics and Warlord Traits without the need for a Renegade dettachment. They really should have included this in the new Codex to and just said you can use them to stand in for <LEGION>. They would work just like any other CSM group, other than TS and DG, like I'm sure they were meant to.

 

Anyone else notice Cultists don't get traits now? It seems like a good move to motivate using CSM squads, but they should have dropped the points back down in my opinion.

It doesn't even need to be clarified. The first sentence says "If your Chaos Space Marine army is taken from a Renegade Chapter" but right after it says

 

If you choose to use this supplement, and your army is Battle-forged, all Daemon Prince, INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units in a Chaos Space Marine Detachment gain a Renegade Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Renegade Chapter.

No clarification needed (sadly, I hoped it would be true so you wouldn't see mixing renegades). Like I said I asked this on the CSM Facebook group after seeing the post here and was ridiculed, flamed and called an idiot for not reading the second part of it that clearly states it doesn't require the whole army.

The first part is an "if statement:: "If your Chaos Space Marine ARMY is taken from a Renegade chapter..." what follows is "then statements." You can give a Renegade dettachment Renegade Traits "if your Chaos Space Marine army is taken from a Renegade Chapter.

 

That's what I thought too, but I got cussed out for saying it.  We shall see I suppose.

[Doom Herald]

Some people wilfully ignore language to get the interpretation they want, then belittle people who show the problem is there. Sorry they ridiculed you. They ridiculed me too when I was talking about how you could technically have EC Plague Marines, WE sorcerers, summon Daemons with Cypher in an IMPERIUM dettachment, and had no way to summon Be'lakor despite him having Daemonic ritual because the wording on the rules were not properly written. Apparently these were all big enough non-clarities to warrant errata, despite people telling me I was just not reading right and was obviously wrong. Older players especially get used to things working a certain way and think it should obviously work that way, but 8th is a very different game.

 

Nothing said in that section negates the condition set by "if your Chaos Space Marine army..."

[Doom Herald]

On that note: Fallen Sorcerers, bring back the whole Cypher & Summoning issue since they have CHARACTER, CHAOS, and IMPERIUM.

[Cheex]

I recently left all Facebook fandom groups - I found them too toxic for my taste.

 

Regarding Renegade Traits, you could make a case that they don't work at all by RAW. A "Chaos Space Marine army" is not defined anywhere within the rules; we only have definitions for Chaos Space Marine units and Chaos Space Marine detachments, so the requirement for these rules can never be met.

 

I encourage people to contact 40kfaq@gwplc.com with feedback on anything like this.

[Doom Herald]

I recently left all Facebook fandom groups - I found them too toxic for my taste.

 

Regarding Renegade Traits, you could make a case that they don't work at all by RAW. A "Chaos Space Marine army" is not defined anywhere within the rules; we only have definitions for Chaos Space Marine units and Chaos Space Marine detachments, so the requirement for these rules can never be met.

 

I encourage people to contact 40kfaq@gwplc.com with feedback on anything like this.

Yeah, I found 1 I like.

 

For simplicity sake, they should have just said something along the lines of: If you replace <LEGION> with X, Y, or Z you can use these legion traits with the same rules for legion traits in Codex: CSM. Also, you can add these new relics and strategems to the list in Codex CSM.

 

I feel like they use overcomplex wording a lot that leaves room for these errors.

 

Looking at strategems at least, that page clearly states if you have a Renegade dettachment, you can use these strategems.

[Wayniac]

I did email them with it.  From what I have seen the only place "army" is defined is on page 240 of the Core Rulebook where it says you must organize your army into detchments.  Logically then this would mean the army is a collection of detachments, and for the army to be "taken from a Renegade Chapter" would be if all your detachments are also taken from a renegade chapter.

[Doom Herald]

I did email them with it. From what I have seen the only place "army" is defined is on page 240 of the Core Rulebook where it says you must organize your army into detchments. Logically then this would mean the army is a collection of detachments, and for the army to be "taken from a Renegade Chapter" would be if all your detachments are also taken from a renegade chapter.

I'm going to have to do a deep read and get a list together. Fallen Sorcerers are another problem right now. Half of the Dark Hereticus powers can't be used on FALLEN because they lack HERETIC ASTARTES then there's the issue of whether they can summon Daemons while in an Imperium army. They decided to bypass answering that problem with Cypher and just said he can't summon, Sorcerers will probably be similar.

[Wayniac]

Something I also noticed RE: the Renegade Chapter thing.  The Black Legion section does NOT contain that "If your army is taken" verbiage under the legion trait section.  Which could lend more credence to the fact it is intentional for Renegades.  I guess we are stuck waiting to see if GW clarifies it at all, but that is another point for this being an intentional wording.

[MegaVolt87]

Just got my book recently, I think Master of Executions is looking solid for a nice cheap HQ. Old exalted champion is looking pretty outclassed by this guy IMO. If exalted champ had a bike, jump pack and terminator armour options, could still stay relevant for the unit buff. 

[Sception]

The problem with the master of executions is that he needs to be punching stuff in melee, and mostly only big stuff or characters, to be contributing. Old exalted champion gets some bonuses for fighting characters, but is happy to munch on regular dudes, and contributes via his aura regardless.

 

Both pale compared to a proper chaos lord, sorcerer, prince, or apostle. Granted, those are more expensive options, but still, they are the heroes that make the rest of the army work. You're going to get them first, and then you'll have neither the need nore the points for extra heroes, imo.

[Minsc]

Just got my book recently, I think Master of Executions is looking solid for a nice cheap HQ. Old exalted champion is looking pretty outclassed by this guy IMO. If exalted champ had a bike, jump pack and terminator armour options, could still stay relevant for the unit buff. 

 

Apples and Oranges. 

 

The Exalted was a decent fighter, but at the end of the day you (or rather, I) took him for his aura.

 

The Master of Executions is a counter-charge unit. Without his intervention-rule, he's a glorified powerfist.

 

My World Eaters love the Exalted, and couldn't care less about the MoE. 

On the flipside, my newly founded Scourged couldn't care less about the Exalted, but love the MoE, especially in combination with their Warlord Trait.

[Preliminary Bombardment]

All Life Is Worthless is the best named strategy ever

[Doom Herald]

I like playing executioners in RP games and even in Skyrim the first thing I do is get the Headsman's axe. The Master of Executions has a place in my army for personal reasons. He's definitely murdery, but I still will keep an exalted champion to make my Berzerkers with chainswords hit harder.

[MegaVolt87]

Yeah but a master of executions doesn't have the -1 to hit like a powerfist and is cheaper than an exalt WITH a powerfist. MoE is a better murder blender than the exalt for the points, unless you want a aura I guess.  

[Lord Asvaldir]

No to hit penalty on essentially a power fist is nice, but now that chaos lords/exalted champions can take thunder hammers, I think I'd much rather take one of those. Flat 3 damage is just so much better than d3, and after years of being denied thunder hammers man I want to make up for lost time by beating up some loyalists with my hammerlord. 

[Cheex]

I'm struggling to justify the MoE for my World Eaters. Cool model, cool concept, but ultimately does nothing for me. A handful of pseudo-power fist attacks is worth a lot less to me than rerolls to wound.

 

Might work better for other Legions whose main workhorses aren't their baseline troops like Berzerkers are for World Eaters.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah I agree, when chaos has so many great buff characters now it's a little hard to justify taking a character with no aura, prayers or spells. I think his only real selling point is he's cheap, if you're filling out a detachment and need another character he'll still pull some weight, but the exalted hero is a similar price and may often be a better pick.