Red Corsairs Rules

[Charlo]

Sorry if this has already been covered in another topic, but the Red Corsairs rules seems pretty amazing right?

 

Advance + Charge

Extra CP for taking Marines

Strong, useful shooting Relic

Excellent Stratagem to bring back full units of Marines from near death

Decent Special Character in Hauron

Nice WLT for free relics

 

Do we think a list based around CSM spam could work, or even just a Battalion of Red Corsairs for literally free CP from effective units?

[Panzer]

Yeah Red Corsairs are pretty sweet, however we're still talking about the same old Chaos Marines which are regarded as overcosted for what they bring to the table. Also Red Corsairs are lacking access to the VotLW Stratagem as renegades which is one of the best Stratagems in the whole game.

I'd say they are best as a side detachment aimed at gaining CP for your big guys from another detachment and at gaining board control with huge ObSec Chaos Marine units that can't really die as long as you have CP. Adding some of the new Chaincannons into those Chaos Marine units might even be enough to give them some bite even though they'd be hitting on 4s when moving.

[Minsc]

Red Corsairs are outright better than World Eaters right now, if you aim to make a close-combat oriented CSM-list.

Not sure if that's saying much though. 

[Charlo]

So I'm not aiming for TOP TIER WAAC ONLY AMAZING UNITS with this, but trying to see if you can make something fun and challenging with the rules...

 

Chaos is so damned versatile it seems odd that they can't get something good at least.

[Wayniac]

I think the main way you'll see Red Corsairs, sadly, is the "Heretical 17" CP farm and then a bunch of stuff that can use VOTLW to make use of all that bonus CP :( so about as unfluffy as anything but it seems for many people fluff went out the window this edition more than before.

 

Of course, you'll also see people who actually play Red Corsairs rather than just wanting cheap CP.

[Xenith]

I think the main way you'll see Red Corsairs, sadly, is the "Heretical 17" CP farm and then a bunch of stuff that can use VOTLW to make use of all that bonus CP :( so about as unfluffy as anything but it seems for many people fluff went out the window this edition more than before.

 

Of course, you'll also see people who actually play Red Corsairs rather than just wanting cheap CP.

Fluff is what you make of it.

 

If you can't see the story behind a command cadre of super organised Red Corsairs overseeing an attack by another legion, then that's just your imagination.

[Wayniac]

 

I think the main way you'll see Red Corsairs, sadly, is the "Heretical 17" CP farm and then a bunch of stuff that can use VOTLW to make use of all that bonus CP so about as unfluffy as anything but it seems for many people fluff went out the window this edition more than before.

 

Of course, you'll also see people who actually play Red Corsairs rather than just wanting cheap CP.

Fluff is what you make of it.

 

If you can't see the story behind a command cadre of super organised Red Corsairs overseeing an attack by another legion, then that's just your imagination.

 

*shrug* I have never felt that fluff is something that you can just make up to justify what you take.  The setting has established fluff and organization, and I only ever see people trying to say that the fluff is up to each person to justify doing competitive/powergaming things to avoid being called out for not playing to the proper background material.

 

As an example, there is no fluff that IMHO can be justified with the typical Imperium Soup list with 32 guardsmen, Mephiston and 2 Blood Angels captains and a Knight Castellan.  Sure, I have seen people try to come up with weak justifications to show it's not just a WAAC netlist, but it always feels like they are trying anything and everything to justify picking things that only benefit them in game.

[Balthamal]

I haven't got the book on hand to check but don't rapiers have the Chaos Space Marine keyword? So technically speaking you could just take a dirt cheap spearhead and get 3 bonus CP that way ;)

[Panzer]

 

 

I think the main way you'll see Red Corsairs, sadly, is the "Heretical 17" CP farm and then a bunch of stuff that can use VOTLW to make use of all that bonus CP so about as unfluffy as anything but it seems for many people fluff went out the window this edition more than before.

 

Of course, you'll also see people who actually play Red Corsairs rather than just wanting cheap CP.

Fluff is what you make of it.

 

If you can't see the story behind a command cadre of super organised Red Corsairs overseeing an attack by another legion, then that's just your imagination.

 

*shrug* I have never felt that fluff is something that you can just make up to justify what you take.  The setting has established fluff and organization, and I only ever see people trying to say that the fluff is up to each person to justify doing competitive/powergaming things to avoid being called out for not playing to the proper background material.

 

As an example, there is no fluff that IMHO can be justified with the typical Imperium Soup list with 32 guardsmen, Mephiston and 2 Blood Angels captains and a Knight Castellan.  Sure, I have seen people try to come up with weak justifications to show it's not just a WAAC netlist, but it always feels like they are trying anything and everything to justify picking things that only benefit them in game.

 

 

The 40k universe also is big enough that it is basically filled with exceptions to what one would consider a normal scenario. Necrons fighting together with Blood Angels would be just one example. Basically, if written properly, the narrative can allow for pretty much everything to happen. A mixed force of Red Corsairs Marines and more specialised Legion Marines is not even stretching what's plausible. ^^

[Xenith]

 

*shrug* I have never felt that fluff is something that you can just make up to justify what you take.  

 

But you seem perfectly happy to use fluff to justify what you can't take.

 

The Horus Heresy was made up to explain why two identical forces were fighting each other in the adeptus titanicus game. 

 

 

It's all part of the social contract, and not as black and white as you think. Sure, plonking down 17 grey unbased dudes and saying these are the sinister seventeen, yea, not cool.

 

Putting 17 guys down that are painted and based to match the army, if the characters are named, look like they're pointing/whatever, I'm going to have a much better time than against someone that drops down a 'super fluffy' knightly order. 

[Wayniac]

I guess.  I've just always felt dirty having a mixed force like that in the scale 40k is meant to represent or, worse, painting them to roughly match my own army and "counts as" Red Corsairs for the mechanical benefits only (which I actually thought of doing when seeing the Red Corsairs rules but it felt too gamey to me).  20+ years of feeling that's "cheesy" or "beardy" (to use GW's own nomenclature) to do that is a hard habit to break.

[Charlo]

How about some actual units that Red Corsairs can use effectively (given their Renegade Trait) or any other of their rules.

 

Bikers seem an obvious choice, with Flamers. Advance 20", Burninate, Charge. Good for whipping screens and cheap!

[Tyriks]

 

 

I think the main way you'll see Red Corsairs, sadly, is the "Heretical 17" CP farm and then a bunch of stuff that can use VOTLW to make use of all that bonus CP :( so about as unfluffy as anything but it seems for many people fluff went out the window this edition more than before.

Of course, you'll also see people who actually play Red Corsairs rather than just wanting cheap CP.

 

Fluff is what you make of it.

If you can't see the story behind a command cadre of super organised Red Corsairs overseeing an attack by another legion, then that's just your imagination.

*shrug* I have never felt that fluff is something that you can just make up to justify what you take.  The setting has established fluff and organization, and I only ever see people trying to say that the fluff is up to each person to justify doing competitive/powergaming things to avoid being called out for not playing to the proper background material.

 

As an example, there is no fluff that IMHO can be justified with the typical Imperium Soup list with 32 guardsmen, Mephiston and 2 Blood Angels captains and a Knight Castellan.  Sure, I have seen people try to come up with weak justifications to show it's not just a WAAC netlist, but it always feels like they are trying anything and everything to justify picking things that only benefit them in game.

Red Corsairs overseeing other legions and warbands is fluffy. That exact scenario came up in the Night Lords trilogy.

[Prot]

Here's the thing... the advance and assault part isn't new. This is the same as it has been since 8th.... It really didn't work then, and I think you have to leverage stuff outside the codex to make it work now.

 

-IF- Possessed would have been substantially boosted then yea, I could see it working.

 

I've played most of my favourite legions out of the new book. I started with using only the Shadow Spear Contents, and expanded from there and compared with my pre-Vigilus results and quite honestly very little is different in the hierarchy in my opinion.

 

Alpha is still great. It'll continue to be the go to. Red Corsairs certainly got better, but my last Red Corsairs test game I got 17 CSM in close combat in turn 1, followed by a Rhino with 8 possessed boosted by 1 greater Possessed, and a MoP for buffs.

 

I couldn't kill anything. I hit a Ghost Kheel, 3 jumpy tau dudes... everything was -1 to hit, had T4 or better, 3+ saves. Nearly all of it bounced. I think I killed 1 dude, and 1 drone. The fish then pulled out of combat and wrecked me.

 

This is the part that is absolutely driving me nuts about GW.... marines as troops do not work. No AP, and bolter drill doesn't really have any appreciable effects on them. Chainswords are bad, so are bolters.  Go cheap. As cheap as you can. Pay the tax, get the good units, profit. I know there are other people on the forum who do fantastic work with basic marines. My hat's off to them. I simply cannot make them work...at least in my environment where I am the only Marine player, unless I go to the local GW and want to play ... a younger, newer crowd.

 

Maybe I'm being overly negative, I dunno... I'm sure someone else could play it better than I do, Other than that it's 'fun' to try the Red Corsairs built. I've had a ton of CP in those games. And for the record I did not take super hard lists (but neither did my opponents).

 

Red Corsairs do a better job with Berzerkers which is how I ran them beginning of 8th. Bikers got a smidge better, and were a good element in 8th, and a little better now for Red Corsairs (I did not test them either in this new RC rule set.)

 

P.S.

I have put together a hypothetical list with daemon bombing my advancing MoP and Red Corsair ruleset, but it's not for the marine element.

[Wayniac]

 

 

 

I think the main way you'll see Red Corsairs, sadly, is the "Heretical 17" CP farm and then a bunch of stuff that can use VOTLW to make use of all that bonus CP so about as unfluffy as anything but it seems for many people fluff went out the window this edition more than before.

Of course, you'll also see people who actually play Red Corsairs rather than just wanting cheap CP.

Fluff is what you make of it.

If you can't see the story behind a command cadre of super organised Red Corsairs overseeing an attack by another legion, then that's just your imagination.

*shrug* I have never felt that fluff is something that you can just make up to justify what you take.  The setting has established fluff and organization, and I only ever see people trying to say that the fluff is up to each person to justify doing competitive/powergaming things to avoid being called out for not playing to the proper background material.

 

As an example, there is no fluff that IMHO can be justified with the typical Imperium Soup list with 32 guardsmen, Mephiston and 2 Blood Angels captains and a Knight Castellan.  Sure, I have seen people try to come up with weak justifications to show it's not just a WAAC netlist, but it always feels like they are trying anything and everything to justify picking things that only benefit them in game.

Red Corsairs overseeing other legions and warbands is fluffy. That exact scenario came up in the Night Lords trilogy.

 

Okay sounds like I really need to read those books...

 

What I dislike is having just a small group of red corsairs in a larger force, because it seems like it's only for the mechanical benefit.  I considered painting a subset of my CSM as counts-as Red Corsairs (something like black legion armor but red shoulderpad/arm) with the fluff being what are basically mercenaries (i.e. expendable) but it felt too "dirty" like I was doing it just for bonus CP and not because it made sense.  Maybe I'll revisit it.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I like the Red Corsairs rules so much I'm going for a full on Red Corsairs army. Yeah, basic marines aren't great but RC are the only tactic that actually gives you a benefit from running basic marines, so my plan is to run 6x5 squads of marines in a dual battalion for a boatload of cp. Rest of the army can be a mix of whatever I feel like, and my stronger units will have lots of CPs I can use to buff them. Is it going to be a top tier list? Probably not. Will I enjoy putting 30 of those new awesome marine models on the table every game? Absolutely. 

[Panzer]

 

I couldn't kill anything. I hit a Ghost Kheel, 3 jumpy tau dudes... everything was -1 to hit, had T4 or better, 3+ saves. Nearly all of it bounced. I think I killed 1 dude, and 1 drone. The fish then pulled out of combat and wrecked me.

 

Just to clarify, only the small Stealth Suits (and a Da'lyth Commander with relic) have a to-hit debuff in melee. All the other units have it only against ranged attacks.

[Charlo]

Hidden Content

Here's the thing... the advance and assault part isn't new. This is the same as it has been since 8th.... It really didn't work then, and I think you have to leverage stuff outside the codex to make it work now.

 

-IF- Possessed would have been substantially boosted then yea, I could see it working.

 

I've played most of my favourite legions out of the new book. I started with using only the Shadow Spear Contents, and expanded from there and compared with my pre-Vigilus results and quite honestly very little is different in the hierarchy in my opinion.

 

Alpha is still great. It'll continue to be the go to. Red Corsairs certainly got better, but my last Red Corsairs test game I got 17 CSM in close combat in turn 1, followed by a Rhino with 8 possessed boosted by 1 greater Possessed, and a MoP for buffs.

 

I couldn't kill anything. I hit a Ghost Kheel, 3 jumpy tau dudes... everything was -1 to hit, had T4 or better, 3+ saves. Nearly all of it bounced. I think I killed 1 dude, and 1 drone. The fish then pulled out of combat and wrecked me.

 

This is the part that is absolutely driving me nuts about GW.... marines as troops do not work. No AP, and bolter drill doesn't really have any appreciable effects on them. Chainswords are bad, so are bolters.  Go cheap. As cheap as you can. Pay the tax, get the good units, profit. I know there are other people on the forum who do fantastic work with basic marines. My hat's off to them. I simply cannot make them work...at least in my environment where I am the only Marine player, unless I go to the local GW and want to play ... a younger, newer crowd.

 

Maybe I'm being overly negative, I dunno... I'm sure someone else could play it better than I do, Other than that it's 'fun' to try the Red Corsairs built. I've had a ton of CP in those games. And for the record I did not take super hard lists (but neither did my opponents).

 

Red Corsairs do a better job with Berzerkers which is how I ran them beginning of 8th. Bikers got a smidge better, and were a good element in 8th, and a little better now for Red Corsairs (I did not test them either in this new RC rule set.)

 

P.S.

I have put together a hypothetical list with daemon bombing my advancing MoP and Red Corsair ruleset, but it's not for the marine element.

 

Thanks Prot, always appreciate your insight as you have a tough meta and a variety of opponents.

 

Ultimately, I think you are right - T4, 3+ 1A with a Bolter and Chainsword ain't what it used to be, bolter drill or no. The extra CP is utterly delicious but I think outside of:

• 20 Man blob for recycling/ applying buffs
• Two 5 man dudes with Chain Cannons/ choice of heavy
• Niche units to apply the tactic to (bikers, Helbrutes etc)

The basic marine just doesn't do enough. HOWEVER, I think basic marines are probably the trap. Farm your easy 8CP and then look elsewhere in the book to the 100s of options and combo's therein. Or take the Corsairs as a #FUN battery for another legion force/ to fund specialist detachments.

[Lord Asvaldir]

As good as chaincannons do seem to be now for a 5 man squad, I will probably still throw in some plasma guns like I use to on my 5 mans just given how difficult it will be to get my hands on enough chaincannon bits, while plasma is much easier. 

[Panzer]

As good as chaincannons do seem to be now for a 5 man squad, I will probably still throw in some plasma guns like I use to on my 5 mans just given how difficult it will be to get my hands on enough chaincannon bits, while plasma is much easier. 

It will be only difficult if you want the original bitz. Get some gatling barrels from elsewhere and use the Heavy Bolter and Autocannon bodies to make some easy Chaincannons. ;)

[Lord Asvaldir]

Part of the problem is a kinda do want the original bitz, just look at how epic that chainreaper cannon is. We'll see if it's at all feasible to buy the chainreaper bitz of ebay or if the bits sellers are charging a completely unreasonable price for it. My money is on the latter. 

[Toomanyprojects]

I think that the constantly shifting loyalties of traitor marines make them a decent choice for an amalgam of different warbands within a single army and that the background of the Red Corsairs makes them ideal for this.

 

My planned army will be: Red Corsairs (Main body of troops, leaders), The Reflected Ones (fluffwise a Tzeentch faction - rules wise, rubric marines fielded as part of the corsairs detachment), The Purge - Heavy Support Detachment (because rotor cannons firing into combat is just too many lulz to avoid) and The Fallen (specialist detachment - mostly because I just like em).

 

the army has been set up to reflect allies of convenience temporarily banding together to achieve a common goal and which will likely last no longer than the battle itself before they fall upon each other. Marvellous :) 

 

Also rather characterful in the manner that they play on the tabletop - Corsairs muck about with CP generation (to personify their 'exactly as planned' persona) while doing a good job of pink misting the troops of the enemy army (also generating a free relic while they're at it), Tzeentch will just be Tzeentch, The Fallen will plasma spam and The Purge will just show a general disregard for all life.  

[Tyriks]

 

 

 

 

I think the main way you'll see Red Corsairs, sadly, is the "Heretical 17" CP farm and then a bunch of stuff that can use VOTLW to make use of all that bonus CP :( so about as unfluffy as anything but it seems for many people fluff went out the window this edition more than before.

Of course, you'll also see people who actually play Red Corsairs rather than just wanting cheap CP.

 

Fluff is what you make of it.

If you can't see the story behind a command cadre of super organised Red Corsairs overseeing an attack by another legion, then that's just your imagination.

*shrug* I have never felt that fluff is something that you can just make up to justify what you take.  The setting has established fluff and organization, and I only ever see people trying to say that the fluff is up to each person to justify doing competitive/powergaming things to avoid being called out for not playing to the proper background material.

 

As an example, there is no fluff that IMHO can be justified with the typical Imperium Soup list with 32 guardsmen, Mephiston and 2 Blood Angels captains and a Knight Castellan.  Sure, I have seen people try to come up with weak justifications to show it's not just a WAAC netlist, but it always feels like they are trying anything and everything to justify picking things that only benefit them in game.

Red Corsairs overseeing other legions and warbands is fluffy. That exact scenario came up in the Night Lords trilogy.

Okay sounds like I really need to read those books...

 

What I dislike is having just a small group of red corsairs in a larger force, because it seems like it's only for the mechanical benefit.  I considered painting a subset of my CSM as counts-as Red Corsairs (something like black legion armor but red shoulderpad/arm) with the fluff being what are basically mercenaries (i.e. expendable) but it felt too "dirty" like I was doing it just for bonus CP and not because it made sense.  Maybe I'll revisit it.

They're good books, worth the read. For the record I doubt I'll soup it up that way (I like having my whole army match) but it's not out of the question.

[Panzer]

I think that the constantly shifting loyalties of traitor marines make them a decent choice for an amalgam of different warbands within a single army and that the background of the Red Corsairs makes them ideal for this.

 

My planned army will be: Red Corsairs (Main body of troops, leaders), The Reflected Ones (fluffwise a Tzeentch faction - rules wise, rubric marines fielded as part of the corsairs detachment), The Purge - Heavy Support Detachment (because rotor cannons firing into combat is just too many lulz to avoid) and The Fallen (specialist detachment - mostly because I just like em).

 

the army has been set up to reflect allies of convenience temporarily banding together to achieve a common goal and which will likely last no longer than the battle itself before they fall upon each other. Marvellous

 

Also rather characterful in the manner that they play on the tabletop - Corsairs muck about with CP generation (to personify their 'exactly as planned' persona) while doing a good job of pink misting the troops of the enemy army (also generating a free relic while they're at it), Tzeentch will just be Tzeentch, The Fallen will plasma spam and The Purge will just show a general disregard for all life.  

 

Binding the enemies units with lots of Red Corsairs in melee so the Purge Havocs can shoot them to bits sounds pretty awesome actually. ^^

[Toomanyprojects]

 

I think that the constantly shifting loyalties of traitor marines make them a decent choice for an amalgam of different warbands within a single army and that the background of the Red Corsairs makes them ideal for this.

 

My planned army will be: Red Corsairs (Main body of troops, leaders), The Reflected Ones (fluffwise a Tzeentch faction - rules wise, rubric marines fielded as part of the corsairs detachment), The Purge - Heavy Support Detachment (because rotor cannons firing into combat is just too many lulz to avoid) and The Fallen (specialist detachment - mostly because I just like em).

 

the army has been set up to reflect allies of convenience temporarily banding together to achieve a common goal and which will likely last no longer than the battle itself before they fall upon each other. Marvellous

 

Also rather characterful in the manner that they play on the tabletop - Corsairs muck about with CP generation (to personify their 'exactly as planned' persona) while doing a good job of pink misting the troops of the enemy army (also generating a free relic while they're at it), Tzeentch will just be Tzeentch, The Fallen will plasma spam and The Purge will just show a general disregard for all life.  

 

Binding the enemies units with lots of Red Corsairs in melee so the Purge Havocs can shoot them to bits sounds pretty awesome actually. ^^

 

 

Thanks, i can't imagine that I will win a lot of games, but thats not why i do this :)