Smash Lords

[Wayniac]

Hmm... that does sound interesting.  It's a shame "Council of Traitors" doesn't also apply to Lords, since it seems in this case you need to make the Chainlord your Warlord (which means no Abaddon for +2CP) since that's the only way to get that soulfire WLT or whatever it's called that also does mortals on a 6+.

[Panzer]

Not sure if the Chainlord really is stronger than the typical Captain Smash and he's also less reliable as he requires a psychic power to go off to properly work at all.

[Brother Aiwass]

Average of 4-5 MW (double if he fights twice) plus normal damage at Ap -3 D2, I don't know mate, I think it's better even without spells.

[Brother Talarian]

Couldn’t you pay 1CP and make him a BoD warlord? That way you can have both Abby and Chainlord.

 

@Panzer, why do you need a spell to go off? And he’s great as you can’t save MW, a lucky roll can negate captain smash. Regardless, he’s a very reliable, cheap, and efficient

[Brother Aiwass]

BoD doesn't work that good because he loses the MW on 6+ WT

[Brother Talarian]

Field Commander only works for thendetachment specific WLT?

 

Hmm, how to fit both on one list and make it work then

[BolterZorro]

What do you use to build your chainlord and smash lord with jumppack and lets say: thunder hammer and combi ?

Where are the bits come from (I don't have it in my kit/bits box...)

What is the best mini for a lord with jumppack to start from?

Same for sorcerer?

[Wayniac]

Field Commander only works for thendetachment specific WLT?

 

Hmm, how to fit both on one list and make it work then

Yes, it only gives you the WLT of the detachment.

 

So the only way to make Chainlord have the extra mortal wound WLT is for him to be the actual Warlord since Field Commander won't work and Council of Traitors is only Dark Apostle and Sorcerer.

 

BolterZorro, on 02 Apr 2019 - 08:29 AM, said:

What do you use to build your chainlord and smash lord with jumppack and lets say: thunder hammer and combi ?

Where are the bits come from (I don't have it in my kit/bits box...)

What is the best mini for a lord with jumppack to start from?

Same for sorcerer?

 

 

Haarken, probably.  For both.  His body is the same, so you'll have the weird voice-mouth but his weapon arms and head are separate so you can give him other weapons with minor posing.  I haven't tried it myself yet but might.

[Panzer]

Well the chainlord fully buffed as you posted him without fighting twice does ~10 damage against a Knight without buffed invul. Half of that is Mortal wounds. A Captain Smash does ~9.7 damage and doesn't require any psychic powers to go off.

Additionally Captain Smash can fight once more after getting killed for 2CP (so potentially 3 times a turn instead of just 2 times) and with the re-positioning Stratagem and the 3d6 charge Stratagem and not requirering other units to deny Overwatch and being able to re-roll charges, both thanks to his relic jump pack, he is much more likely to get into melee in the first place.

 

That's why I don't think the Chainlord is "far more powerful". He does a little bit more damage but requires more ressource handling than just pumping CP into him and has less utility.

 

I'll give you though that against a Knight with buffed invul he is in a better position compared IF the BA player doesn't have enough CP to let him fight after death again (because none of them would kill the Knight solo on average and both are likely to get killed in return).

[BolterZorro]

Thx wayniac!

For wysiwyg, do we have to kitbash the relics & co?

I don't have any combi weapon nore hammer. Where can I get them from?

 

BTW, I saw that the lord/sorcerer in termi miniature has not been updated. Does it look like weid compared to the new chaos terminators? (I mean, it'd be a bit more little?)

[Prot]

Host Raptorial Detachment+Field Commander (2 CP)

JP Sorcerer of Tzeentch with Weaver of Fates to give the Lord 3++ and Diabolic Strength (swap Smite for 1 CP if you need Warptime)

JP lord, chainsword and the Black Legion relic chainsword that does MW on 6+

Flames of Spite WT that does MW on 6+

No Chaos Mark

Use the Chosen of the Pantheon when he DS (1 CP), now he has the 4 chaos marks

Cast Weaver of Fates and Diabolic Strength for +1S&A

VoTLW for 1 CP

 

Now he has 4 attacks base, +2 for the relic, +1 for the chainsword and +1 for the spell, so 8 attacks that hit on 2+, re-rolling 1s  at S5 Ap -3. For every 5+ to wound he does 2 MW (one for the trait, one for the relic) plus the normal damage. Since he is Khorne too, he can fight twice, that's 16 attacks.

 

I thought of this and am seeing it talked about... however when I read the relic chainsword I didn't read it as using all of your attacks with it. I saw it as similar to Drachnyen where you get a couple of bonus attacks with it.

[Wayniac]

Thx wayniac!

For wysiwyg, do we have to kitbash the relics & co?

I don't have any combi weapon nore hammer. Where can I get them from?

 

BTW, I saw that the lord/sorcerer in termi miniature has not been updated. Does it look like weid compared to the new chaos terminators? (I mean, it'd be a bit more little?)

First, yes but the relic is just a chainsword, so I guess use two different ones if you're doing two of them and paint one differently for the relic (IIRC the fluff is it has a daemon bound on it so maybe give the blades a colored sheen, that's what I would do.  make the blades "glow" to show it's like possessed).  Combi-weapons and hammers I don't have an answer for sadly. 

 

I haven't seen a pic comparing but the Terminator Lord was bigger than the old terminators so I think he'd be about the same size as the new ones.

[Panzer]

 

Host Raptorial Detachment+Field Commander (2 CP)

JP Sorcerer of Tzeentch with Weaver of Fates to give the Lord 3++ and Diabolic Strength (swap Smite for 1 CP if you need Warptime)

JP lord, chainsword and the Black Legion relic chainsword that does MW on 6+

Flames of Spite WT that does MW on 6+

No Chaos Mark

Use the Chosen of the Pantheon when he DS (1 CP), now he has the 4 chaos marks

Cast Weaver of Fates and Diabolic Strength for +1S&A

VoTLW for 1 CP

 

Now he has 4 attacks base, +2 for the relic, +1 for the chainsword and +1 for the spell, so 8 attacks that hit on 2+, re-rolling 1s  at S5 Ap -3. For every 5+ to wound he does 2 MW (one for the trait, one for the relic) plus the normal damage. Since he is Khorne too, he can fight twice, that's 16 attacks.

 

I thought of this and am seeing it talked about... however when I read the relic chainsword I didn't read it as using all of your attacks with it. I saw it as similar to Drachnyen where you get a couple of bonus attacks with it.

 

 

Chainswords give you a couple bonus attacks you can use only with that weapon. The rest of the attacks the model has available it can split freely between any melee weapons it has equipped, including chainswords and such. ;)

[BolterZorro]

So, guys, I see that you don't go the terminator route for the lords/sorcerers...

[Prot]

 

 

Host Raptorial Detachment+Field Commander (2 CP)

JP Sorcerer of Tzeentch with Weaver of Fates to give the Lord 3++ and Diabolic Strength (swap Smite for 1 CP if you need Warptime)

JP lord, chainsword and the Black Legion relic chainsword that does MW on 6+

Flames of Spite WT that does MW on 6+

No Chaos Mark

Use the Chosen of the Pantheon when he DS (1 CP), now he has the 4 chaos marks

Cast Weaver of Fates and Diabolic Strength for +1S&A

VoTLW for 1 CP

 

Now he has 4 attacks base, +2 for the relic, +1 for the chainsword and +1 for the spell, so 8 attacks that hit on 2+, re-rolling 1s  at S5 Ap -3. For every 5+ to wound he does 2 MW (one for the trait, one for the relic) plus the normal damage. Since he is Khorne too, he can fight twice, that's 16 attacks.

 

I thought of this and am seeing it talked about... however when I read the relic chainsword I didn't read it as using all of your attacks with it. I saw it as similar to Drachnyen where you get a couple of bonus attacks with it.

 

 

Chainswords give you a couple bonus attacks you can use only with that weapon. The rest of the attacks the model has available it can split freely between any melee weapons it has equipped, including chainswords and such.

 

 

If this is truly how that relic works, then I may have finally found a reason to pull Haarken out again!

 

So, guys, I see that you don't go the terminator route for the lords/sorcerers...

 

I still prefer Termie Sorcs personally, otherwise I've grown extremely fond of the MoPs but obviously not for smashlord purposes.

[Sception]

Use the Chosen of the Pantheon when he DS (1 CP),

Sadly, chosen of the pantheon is start of turn only. Cant use it the turn you deep strike, as you aren't on the table yet.

[Brother Aiwass]

Damn it!

[Wayniac]

So as it stands the only major roadblock is that Chainlord must be the Warlord to get that trait.  Which doesn't seem like it's NECESSARY but really adds to his output to get 2 mortals instead of 1 for each 6+.  He must be a Chaos Lord if you want a jump pack (or maybe  Sorcerer, I think they can take a Chainsword not 100% certain) but that reduces his attacks by 1.  Or if you don't want a jump pack, an Exalted Champion could work and also give you a re-roll Wound aura.

 

So sorcerer CAN take a chainsword (it replaces his pistol).  And then you can use Council of Traitors.. and he can Warptime/Diabolic himself... so yeah, I think Chainsorc might be the thing.

[Brother Aiwass]

5+ with veterans, but yes

[Sception]

4+ with veterans and the soultearer prayer from a nearby apostle. That again triggers only start of turn, though, so you can't disembark or deep strike on the same turn.

[Closet Skeleton]

Finally we received some real weapon on human-form heroes. That is nice.

 

But chaos smash heroes dont work the same way as BA smash captain. With strats of denying OW & swing again and again, BA captain is a hard counter to knight or other superheavy units. Chaos lord could kill infantry faster, but not expert in this special role.

 

Talisman of Burning blood denies overwatch and the khorne stratagem gives fight twice so no, there's nothing to stop a khorne lord from messing up a knight.

 

And the D4 hammer, and the charge re-roll on the jump pack, and the 3d6 charge stratagem, and the re-positioning stratagem, and the +1d3 attacks stratagem, and the fight after death stratagem, and the BA trait for +1 to-wound (though we have VotLW so that's that).

 

Make no mistake, the Hammer Lord is strong and can be buffed a good amount as well but it's no Captain Smash.

 

From my experience most players who copy pasted captain smash into their army don't actually use those. They just take a supreme command with 3 captains so the relic and warlord trait doesn't matter so much.

 

Main weakness chaos has is lack of a storm shield option other than spells on tzeentch or daemon mount lords.

 

Chaos don't need 3d6 charge, we have warptime and advance and charge options which can't be screened as easily as deep strike past charge phase fly nerfs.

[Balthamal]

 

Finally we received some real weapon on human-form heroes. That is nice.

 

But chaos smash heroes dont work the same way as BA smash captain. With strats of denying OW & swing again and again, BA captain is a hard counter to knight or other superheavy units. Chaos lord could kill infantry faster, but not expert in this special role.

 

Talisman of Burning blood denies overwatch and the khorne stratagem gives fight twice so no, there's nothing to stop a khorne lord from messing up a knight.

 

And the D4 hammer, and the charge re-roll on the jump pack, and the 3d6 charge stratagem, and the re-positioning stratagem, and the +1d3 attacks stratagem, and the fight after death stratagem, and the BA trait for +1 to-wound (though we have VotLW so that's that).

 

Make no mistake, the Hammer Lord is strong and can be buffed a good amount as well but it's no Captain Smash.

 

From my experience most players who copy pasted captain smash into their army don't actually use those. They just take a supreme command with 3 captains so the relic and warlord trait doesn't matter so much.

 

Main weakness chaos has is lack of a storm shield option other than spells on tzeentch or daemon mount lords.

 

Chaos don't need 3d6 charge, we have warptime and advance and charge options which can't be screened as easily as deep strike past charge phase fly nerfs.

 

 

 

Talisman of burning blood does nothing to negate overwatch unless it's been updated in the new dex to include that additional benefit - it's advance and charge and re-roll failed charges

[Closet Skeleton]

Not sure how I glitched there.

[Balthamal]

Not sure how I glitched there.

 

Isn't there something from khorne daemons that does it?

[Lord Asvaldir]

I agree with what others are saying that the chainlord may not be as strong as the classic slamguinius, but I don't really think that's a huge deal. The chainlord is still a very good build, and he has a major advantage over slamguinius in that he does mortal wounds. All those storm shield characters and terminators out there will fear the chainlord far more than slamguinius, and any 5 wound character will not last long against the chainlord. 

 

If I was a BL player, I'd be using that build. As I'm not I think I will settle for a chaos lord with a jump pack or terminator armor armed with a thunder hammer and intoxicating elixir. Yeah I know it's not slamguinius but 5 s10 3 damage attacks is not too shabby.