Smash Lords

[Cheex]

 

 

Yeah it's a really tough choice because giving up 2CP from Abaddon is pretty big, but the Chainlord gets way nastier with that second way to get Mortal Wounds. He does seem pretty good even without it (not as good of course), so that might be a compromise approach.

Why not use the Field Commander strat? That way you can have Abby as your warlord and Chainlord can still benefit from the Raptorial warlord trait.

 

The problem is that if he uses Abby, the chainlord can't have the flames of spite trait, which means losing half the killing power.

 

 

Ah, right, I was caught up in an earlier comment where he mentioned that the Raptorial trait would be nice to have. My mistake!

[Iron_Within]

Chain lord with priest and votlw is insane.... Unless you roll like me.... :(

[Brother Aiwass]

No worries Cheexsta, there are so many comments and conversations right now about that lord. He is so hot right now.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Chainlord is indeed hot right now. I personally have run a budget one since the 1.0 Codex dropped: World Eaters Exalted Champ with just 2 Chainswords. Comes out of a Rhino with a Dark Apostle and 8 Berzerkers. Has worked well enough so far. My favorite performance was watching him delete a 5-man squad of Storm Shield Deathwatch Veterans in one Fight Phase. Will need to be tweaked for new Codex.

 

Given how cheap they are, I'm debating running 3 x Masters of Execution as "mini smash lords" with some more Berzerkers in a Dreadclaw or another Rhino. World Eater MoE's will have 6 attacks each on the charge, all have Flames of Spite built in, and they should be able to do some work, especially since most Knights are characters these days. 

 

My World Eaters "train" on that Daemon World with the Ork Waaagh trapped on it. The one that Khorne keeps resurrecting because he thinks they're cool and likes watching them fight Bloodletters. As a result, I have a few models with massive nob-sized chain axes. They also all have beakie heads that I'm in the process of painting up like hockey masks. I think I'll add some green-stuff coats/capes and give it a shot.

[Sception]

Why not use the Field Commander strat? That way you can have Abby as your warlord and Chainlord can still benefit from the Raptorial warlord trait.

The issue isnt access to the host raptorial warlord trait. A host raptorial field commander or council of traitors jump sorcerer can access that easily enough and convey its benefits to a chain lord within their aura. The issue is access to the generic csm warlord trait 'flames of spite' on your chain lord himself, granting a second mortal wound on 6+ to wound, in adfition to the one from the relic chainsword itself. It's the combination of the two that make this character intimidating, and afaict there's no way to have both a flame of spite chainlord and a warlord abaddon in the same list.

[Cheex]

Given how cheap they are, I'm debating running 3 x Masters of Execution as "mini smash lords" with some more Berzerkers in a Dreadclaw or another Rhino. World Eater MoE's will have 6 attacks each on the charge, all have Flames of Spite built in, and they should be able to do some work, especially since most Knights are characters these days. 

 

I wouldn't really call the MoE "cheap" at 70pts. And a Dreadclaw only gives you a 27%-ish chance of successfully charging on the drop, so chances are you won't get in.

 

I do like Moe's weapon, though. It's just a shame that he can't take a jump pack to come in with a Raptorial :)

 

 

Why not use the Field Commander strat? That way you can have Abby as your warlord and Chainlord can still benefit from the Raptorial warlord trait.

The issue isnt access to the host raptorial warlord trait. A host raptorial field commander or council of traitors jump sorcerer can access that easily enough and convey its benefits to a chain lord within their aura. The issue is access to the generic csm warlord trait 'flames of spite' on your chain lord himself, granting a second mortal wound on 6+ to wound, in adfition to the one from the relic chainsword itself. It's the combination of the two that make this character intimidating, and afaict there's no way to have both a flame of spite chainlord and a warlord abaddon in the same list.

 

 

Yep, already got that and mentioned my error :)

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I can see how the Dreadclaw would be somewhat problematic if I dropped it, but that would still be a lot of chances for somebody out of that mess (including a squad of Berzerkers sharing the space) to make it and cause some inconvenience, including the Claw itself if I deployed parallel to it instead of out in front. However, that's a bit haphazard, I'd agree.

 

Flying the Dreadclaw in from across the table would probably be better or a Rhino with the -1 to be hit prayer from an Apostle and the Smoke Launchers. One cool thing is because the prayers happen at the start of the battle round, the prayer will be in effect before the Movement Phase and therefore the Apostle could do it and then mount the transport.

[hierojin]

Correct me if I am missing something but isn't the lord S4 base? Wouldn't that make him S9 with thunder hammer and an intoxicating elixir? (S4x2 +1S = S9)

[Panzer]

Correct me if I am missing something but isn't the lord S4 base? Wouldn't that make him S9 with thunder hammer and an intoxicating elixir? (S4x2 +1S = S9)

That used to be the case in last edition but in this edition you modify the profile first and then do the weapon modifier. So he becomes S5 which then gets doubled to S10.

[Wayniac]

I do like that there are multiple ways to build the Chainlord in varying degrees.  So far I think the best compromise might be the Lord w/Jump Pack (for mobility only, but you don't want him out in the middle), Relic chainsword.  The idea is to keep him with something else rather than up front, so he's sort of insurance with your units that are advancing up.  Also so he can be near a Dark Apostle to get the buff, otherwise he'll be out somewhere.  Skip the second mortal wound trait, so he loses some effectiveness but you can have Abaddon as Warlord.

 

Now one point to consider here is is the second chainsword worth it beyond just keeping him cheap?  Even with the WLT it's one additional attack with it that only has the one chance for a mortal wound (so you're mortal wound fishing, basically).  If you don't take the WLT, as I'm suggesting here, there's no reason to give him the second chainsword and it'd probably be better to increase his cost a bit but give him a combi-melta or something lke that instead.

 

As I said though, the best part about this guy is there are a multitude of builds for him.

[Brother Aiwass]

I do like that there are multiple ways to build the Chainlord in varying degrees.  So far I think the best compromise might be the Lord w/Jump Pack (for mobility only, but you don't want him out in the middle), Relic chainsword.  The idea is to keep him with something else rather than up front, so he's sort of insurance with your units that are advancing up.  Also so he can be near a Dark Apostle to get the buff, otherwise he'll be out somewhere.  Skip the second mortal wound trait, so he loses some effectiveness but you can have Abaddon as Warlord.

 

Now one point to consider here is is the second chainsword worth it beyond just keeping him cheap?  Even with the WLT it's one additional attack with it that only has the one chance for a mortal wound (so you're mortal wound fishing, basically).  If you don't take the WLT, as I'm suggesting here, there's no reason to give him the second chainsword and it'd probably be better to increase his cost a bit but give him a combi-melta or something lke that instead.

 

As I said though, the best part about this guy is there are a multitude of builds for him.

Is not that "he loses some effectiveness". He just halves it, and this build is designed to fish MW, every bit counts. But if you want to take him without the WT, it is ok, however, you're now paying the same points for him for half the effectiveness. Regarding the extra chainsword, then is only useful for fishing with the WT, as it would generate a MW on 5+ (2 chances) or even 4+ with the Apostle buff (which it may be somewhat difficult to achieve).

[Dr_Ruminahui]

 

Correct me if I am missing something but isn't the lord S4 base? Wouldn't that make him S9 with thunder hammer and an intoxicating elixir? (S4x2 +1S = S9)

That used to be the case in last edition but in this edition you modify the profile first and then do the weapon modifier. So he becomes S5 which then gets doubled to S10.

 

Or rather, the rules in the rule book are written the way hierojin thought they worked, then GW went and changed the RAW in their Designers Commentary to doing the math for the model's modifiers first, then the weapon's modifiers second.

 

This was recently discussed here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354903-strength-modifiers-and-interactions/

 

 

 

Is not that "he loses some effectiveness". He just halves it, and this build is designed to fish MW, every bit counts. But if you want to take him without the WT, it is ok, however, you're now paying the same points for him for half the effectiveness. Regarding the extra chainsword, then is only useful for fishing with the WT, as it would generate a MW on 5+ (2 chances) or even 4+ with the Apostle buff (which it may be somewhat difficult to achieve).

 

 

I don't think its fair to say that it halves the chainlords effectiveness - sure, it halves the schtick or gimmick of the build, but the build has effectiveness beyond that... after all, its not like all the non-mortal wounds are wasted and have no effect at all.

[Brother Aiwass]

Yeah, I was talking about the mortal wounds specifically, which are a big part of the build.

[Panzer]

Well fully buffed the Mortal wounds are exactly 50% the damage output against an unbuffed Imperial Knight. Halving that is still a pretty deep cut into the Lords damage output. ^^

[BrainFireBob]

No one loving the bike over a jump pack?

[Brother Aiwass]

No one loving the bike over a jump pack?

Is not a bad option. Also, since the relic doesn't have the BLACK LEGION requirement...

[Wayniac]

Yeah, not making him the warlord does halve his effectiveness if you're going for the mortal wound output.  But making him the Warlord can have its drawbacks as well.  Besides the obvious that you can't get +2 CP for Abaddon if you take him, there's the fact if he's up close and personal with really nasty things, you're risking giving up Slay the Warlord if he dies.

[Wayniac]

 

No one loving the bike over a jump pack?

Is not a bad option. Also, since the relic doesn't have the BLACK LEGION requirement...

 

Are people really trying to game this and think that's intended?

[the emperor is scottish]

Noob alert. What's a chainlord?

[Lord Asvaldir]

No one loving the bike over a jump pack?

 

I don't really use bike characters anymore because I worry they may not be options for long. With all the codexes released now, I think the days of index options being legal are numbered. That being said bikes are still effective, and I do still have bike characters sitting around from when they use to be widely used in earlier editions. 

[Midnightmare]

I know I am a bit slow, but I don’t have Vigilus. What is a Chainlord? What is this fancy relic and what does it do? Cheers!

 

EDIT: sorry I have just repeated the Emperor is Scottish’ question - at least it is not just me!! :D

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Noob alert. What's a chainlord?

 

 

I know I am a bit slow, but I don’t have Vigilus. What is a Chainlord? What is this fancy relic and what does it do? Cheers!

 

EDIT: sorry I have just repeated the Emperor is Scottish’ question - at least it is not just me!!

 

There is a Black Legion relic in Vigilus Ablaze that replaces a character's chainsword and basically turns it into a power sword that does a mortal wound for each attack roll of 6+.

 

A Chaos Lord with the relic is a chain lord.

 

Yeah, internet linguistic shortcuts can be confusing.

[Wayniac]

Why are people saying the Relic doesn't have the Black Legion keyword?  the part on the previous page under Relics says 

 

 Vigilus Ablaze, p189
If your army is led by a Chaos Space marine Warlord, you may give one of the Relics of the Legion on page 191 to a BLACK LEGION CHARACTER from your army.

 

 

So what exactly is the point of contention here where people are trying to say you can give it to a Flawless Host or whatever character?

[Brother Aiwass]

Why are people saying the Relic doesn't have the Black Legion keyword?  the part on the previous page under Relics says 

 

 Vigilus Ablaze, p189

If your army is led by a Chaos Space marine Warlord, you may give one of the Relics of the Legion on page 191 to a BLACK LEGION CHARACTER from your army.

 

 

So what exactly is the point of contention here where people are trying to say you can give it to a Flawless Host or whatever character?

Mate, I just apoligized in the FB group, stop shaming me! :lol:

[Wayniac]

I posted this on the Chaos facebook group but reposting it here as well:
 
You know the more I think about it, the more Chainlord seems like just a gimmick, and not a really amazing one at that.  I mean, the meat of it is that you're just trying to fish for mortal wounds with VOTLW and the Dark Apostle's +1 wound prayer.  His attacks are pretty lackluster without that, although he has a lot depending on how much you can buff him (I think he can get up to 9?  4 base, +2 for Ghorisvex's Teeth, +2 if you got Diabolic Strength, and then +1 with the non-relic chainsword.  And then doubled to 18 if he has Mark of Khorne via Fury of Khorne)

But IMHO that's a lot of effort to try and hope you roll 4+ on a bunch of dice.  You need:

• Chaos Lord, ideally with a jump pack and Mark of Khorne (to fight twice via stratagem)
• He needs to be the Warlord for Flames of Spite (rather big as that means no Abaddon for +2 CP)
• Relic Chainsword (free likely)
• Second chainsword just for one extra chance to get mortal wounds, and nothing else (dirt cheap)
• Dark Apostle w/Prayer to give +1 to wound (which means not taking one of the other great prayers)
• Chainlord has to be within 6" of the Dark Apostle until the turn he gets buffed, which limits him to walking speed despite having the jump pack
• Ideally a Sorcerer for Warptime and Diabolic Strength to make his attacks not garbage without just mortal wound fishing
• Veterans of the Long War for a second +1 to wound, ideally Fury of Khorne to double his attacks so minimum 2 CP (EDIT: Fury is 3 so that's minimum of 4CP)

Basically, all you are doing is fishing for mortal wounds since he's S4 at worst or S6 at best with diabolic strength.  Especially without the sorcerer, his attacks are pretty lackluster if you don't roll those 4+s unless you're using him as a blender to carve through hordes.
 

That seems like an awful lot as well as requiring at least two and ideally three characters built just around supporting him, as well as requiring him to be your Warlord and you want him in harm's way so you risk giving up Slay the Warlord or its equivalent when in use.
He's certainly cool and all but I'm just not seeing him as that amazing since he requires so many things to be done to set him up and in the end, the only thing you really care about is the mortal wounds and that seems incredibly gimmicky as well as a lowish chance for what you're putting into him.