Smash Lords

[the emperor is scottish]

Whatever aesthetic you want to go for, really. Just like Blood Angels player got real creative with their Captain Smashs Jump Pack in form of angel wings and whatnot, Chaos players can do the same with more daemonic wings .... or just stick to one particularly good looking regular Jump Pack if you don't want to go for the mutated look.

I've always loved the raptor jump pack but not the recent interpretation. Last versions one with the big intake ports on top. 

In my opinion that's what raptor jump packs look like. 

 

I still have a few of these lying around my bits box that just need some paint striped off them but that's one of the pros to metal, easier to clean paint from. 

I'm sticking one of these on the haarken model along with the Goliath champion power maul. Will probably swap out the legs as the current position of the maul is a little more relaxed (resting on the shoulder) compared to haarken's more dynamic lunging forward.

 

 

[BolterZorro]

I like the new preorder lord with hammer. I'd be a bit strange to add him a jumppack but wysiwyg for wysiwyg, I'll add him a little magnet on his back plus a magnetized random jumppack just for the sake of the game until I'll find a better idea.

 

BTW, with him, I'll get a nice plama and a nice hammer that I could fit (magnet again) on the harkan miniature which has a proper pose and jetpack.

[Brother Aiwass]

I like the new preorder lord with hammer. I'd be a bit strange to add him a jumppack but wysiwyg for wysiwyg, I'll add him a little magnet on his back plus a magnetized random jumppack just for the sake of the game until I'll find a better idea.

 

BTW, with him, I'll get a nice plama and a nice hammer that I could fit (magnet again) on the harkan miniature which has a proper pose and jetpack.

I think that'll be an awesome conversion!

[techsoldaten]

It also have to do with models.  Many people (such as myself) don't play with proxies, so won't be fielding a smash lord until we build and paint a model with a thunderhammer.  Whereas for the chainlord, its a variant on an existing build so those who are inclined to try it out likely already have a model with 2 chainswords that they can use.

 

 

I'm having trouble with this myself at the moment, there's just not the models to make a proper conversion. Was tempted by the Night Lords Praetor in power armour since he has trophies and Jump Pack but still looks a little clean for my taste

 

Thunderhammers are kind of rare to begin with.

 

There's one included on the Grey Knight Strike Squads sprues, one on the GK Terminator sprues, 5 on the Assault Terminator sprues, and I think one of the Captain's sprue. I'm sure there are others, the point is they're not common.

 

The only models in a Chaos army who can take them are Chaos Lords, Sorcerors and Chosen. So GW's probably not going to make it easier to get Thunderhammers.

 

Whereas I have the bits sitting around to build a dozen Chainlords and expect that's true for a lot of people. So I expect we will see a lot more of them.

[BolterZorro]

I think that the new lord (pre order next saturday) with a hammer is a good contender for thunder hammer. You can chop it , or better mould it.

[Minsc]

I present to you, the Assassin Lord.  

Flawless Host Chaos Lord with Jumppack and Murder Sword - clocks in at 97 pts.
 

Give him the FH Warlord Trait and +1 to hit and he will on average get 9,33 attacks against imperium and 8 attacks against non-imperium.

These attacks will on average result in 9,07 / 7,78 Mortal Wounds on their allotted target, depending on if they're imperium or not. 

 

The Flawless Host Daemon Prince is a better blender, but this lord is almost half the price and is still decent at munching trough regular RnF with his (on average) 9,33 / 8 S5 AP4 attacks.

[Trevak Dal]

I think there is merit to a World Eater Smash Lord with the Slaughterborn trait. Getting +1 S and +1 A every kill would be pretty fun, and rolling on the table after every kill would make it glorious too.

Chaos Lord Gallagher? With the sledgeamatic?

[Subtle Discord]

When he's out of watermelons then you're in serious trouble.

[SyNidus]

Would a Night Lords lord with Claws of the Black Hunt be able to compare to a Thunderhammer Lord with intoxicating relic? This is something i've been thinking about.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Depends what you are fighting - the claws are better against 1 wound infantry of T 5 or lower, while the hammer is better against everything else.

 

Both have 5 attacks, AP -3 (I think) and reroll 1s to hit.

 

Chaos lord with thunder hammer and intoxicating elexir has WS 3+  (well, 2 with a -1), S 10, and D3.

Chaos lord with claws of the black hunt has WS 2+, S 5 (rerolling failed wounds), and D 1-3.

 

 

On average, against T4, 1 W, 3+ Sv (Marine profile)

TH+IE - 5 attacks x 7/9 hit x 5/6 wound x 5/6 failed saves x 100% kill = 2.7 dead

CoBH - 5 attacks x 35/36 hit x 8/9 wound x 5/6 failed saves x 100% kill = 3.6 dead

 

On average, against T4, 2 W, 3+ Sv (Primaris profile)

TH+IE - 5 attacks x 7/9 hit x 5/6 wound x 5/6 failed saves x 100% kill = 2.7 dead

CoBH - 5 attacks x 35/36 hit x 8/9 wound x 5/6 failed saves x 2/3 kill = 2.4 dead

 

On average, against T5, 1 W, 3+ Sv (Havoc profile)

TH+IE - 5 attacks x 7/9 hit x 5/6 wound x 5/6 failed saves x 100% kill = 2.7 dead

CoBH - 5 attacks x 35/36 hit x 3/4 wound x 5/6 failed saves x 2/3 kill = 3.0 dead

 

On average, against T7, 3+ Sv (Hellbrute & Rhino profile)

TH+IE - 5 attacks x 7/9 hit x 2/3 wound x 5/6 failed saves x 3 wounds = 6.3 wounds

CoBH - 5 attacks x 35/36 hit x 4/9 wound x 5/6 failed saves x 1-3 woundsl = 1.8 to 5.4 wounds

 

TH+EI lord gets better with prescience, as it bumps him up to 35/36 hits, while CoBH lord doesn't benefit (a +1 to hit doesn't help when you are already only missing on 1s).

[Sception]

Does that include dttfe? It obviously doesnt always apply, but when it does that -1 to hit hurts a bit more, and prescience actually gains some value even for heroes already hitting on a 2+.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

No, I didn't include DttFE - I tend to forget about it because non of my regular opponents are imperial (I lose a lot against necrons, and sometimes play against orks).

 

But yes, with DttFE the Claws basically make up the difference in terms of wounding, and more so with prescience.  They still lag behind where their 1-3 damage matters, though.

 

Taking into account DttFE (without prescience), in each category the hits from the Claws go from 35/36 to 245/216 (or, in fractions, from to 0.97 to 1.13.

 

So, with DttFE, the claws (without prescience):

 

Against Marines, do 4.2 kills.

Against Primaris, do 2.78 kills

Against Havocs (is there an imperial equivalent?), do 3.48 kills

Against Rhinos, do 2.1 to 6.3 wounds.

[Wayniac]

So now a question is if you won't make the Lord the Warlord for Flames of Spite, does the Smashlord (Thunder Hammer) outperform the Chainlord (Ghorisvex's Teeth)?  The Warlord part remains, for me, the biggest detriment to using the "full" version of the Chainlord because it locks you in, as well as puts your Warlord constantly in harm's way to enable giving up Slay the Warlord.  But Flames of Spite is 50% of his gimmicky mortal wound output, so without it, I'm wondering if the Smash Lord pulls ahead.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

The chainlords math is considerably more complex - I started doing it then decided it was too much work for a build I'll never use (my army is emperor's children, not Black Legion). :)

[BrainFireBob]

Check the numbers above. Divide mortals by 2

[Squike]

I’ve been using Ghorisvex’s teeth on an exalted champion, with some decent success, you can re-roll all failed wound rolls, so more chance of the mortal wounds you also get to re-roll failed hits against a character, and you buff the other cc units around with the re-roll failed wounds also. I’ve been running him with a squad of 9 Berzerkers in a rhino and when they make it into combat they rip through pretty well. I used them in a local 1000pts comp, and they smashed up a good amount of space wolves and a rhino before being shot apart when I had killed everything close by.

I plan to get another rhino with another 9 Berzerkers and a thunder hammer lord to move up with them. And the extra target saturation should improve the chances or getting them up the field.

[Slave to Darkness]

What would be the best killy setup for a World Eater Lord in Terminator Armour?

[Prot]

I’ve been using Ghorisvex’s teeth on an exalted champion, with some decent success, you can re-roll all failed wound rolls, so more chance of the mortal wounds you also get to re-roll failed hits against a character, and you buff the other cc units around with the re-roll failed wounds also. I’ve been running him with a squad of 9 Berzerkers in a rhino and when they make it into combat they rip through pretty well. I used them in a local 1000pts comp, and they smashed up a good amount of space wolves and a rhino before being shot apart when I had killed everything close by.

I plan to get another rhino with another 9 Berzerkers and a thunder hammer lord to move up with them. And the extra target saturation should improve the chances or getting them up the field.

As a Black Legion player who always uses Abaddon as his Warlord it’s harder for me to make a true teeth Lord. I do at least hope to get the Ghorisvex’s teeth on a raptor Lord, but I think you have to use the Raptorial detachment just for that 2” bonus charge and Raptors to take over watch.

 

I will say I tried it with Warp Talons too but man what a bust. I failed all charges against Necrons even with CP rerolls and just got owned I haven’t had the nerve to try it again. I know it was a fluky situation but I seem prone to them and it just flipped the game sideways.

[Boshea]

What would be the best killy setup for a World Eater Lord in Terminator Armour?

Pair of Claws or Power fist most likely. Chaos Terminators can't take Thunder Hammers.

[techsoldaten]

 

As a Black Legion player who always uses Abaddon as his Warlord it’s harder for me to make a true teeth Lord. I do at least hope to get the Ghorisvex’s teeth on a raptor Lord, but I think you have to use the Raptorial detachment just for that 2” bonus charge and Raptors to take over watch.

 

I will say I tried it with Warp Talons too but man what a bust. I failed all charges against Necrons even with CP rerolls and just got owned I haven’t had the nerve to try it again. I know it was a fluky situation but I seem prone to them and it just flipped the game sideways.

 

 

You may be overthinking it.

 

Chainlords might be the most points-efficient offensive option in the Codex. Since you don't pay for the relic or the warlord trait, you get a model with 6 AP -3 D2 attacks that cause 2 MWs on 6s. With Diabolic Strength and Veterans of the Long War, it's 7 S6 attacks and he's doing those mortal wounds on 5s. Plus he can take MoK and use Fury of Khorne to fight twice.

 

My last game, he tanked 3 Talos in a single turn. The game before that, he wiped a 10-man Deathwatch Veterans squad in a single turn.

 

Sure, the damage is random, but is it worth it make Abaddon Warlord instead of taking this guy? Abaddon doesn't have to be the Warlord, all that does is get you 2 CPs.

[Prot]

 

 

As a Black Legion player who always uses Abaddon as his Warlord it’s harder for me to make a true teeth Lord. I do at least hope to get the Ghorisvex’s teeth on a raptor Lord, but I think you have to use the Raptorial detachment just for that 2” bonus charge and Raptors to take over watch.

 

I will say I tried it with Warp Talons too but man what a bust. I failed all charges against Necrons even with CP rerolls and just got owned I haven’t had the nerve to try it again. I know it was a fluky situation but I seem prone to them and it just flipped the game sideways.

 

 

You may be overthinking it.

 

Chainlords might be the most points-efficient offensive option in the Codex. Since you don't pay for the relic or the warlord trait, you get a model with 6 AP -3 D2 attacks that cause 2 MWs on 6s. With Diabolic Strength and Veterans of the Long War, it's 7 S6 attacks and he's doing those mortal wounds on 5s. Plus he can take MoK and use Fury of Khorne to fight twice.

 

My last game, he tanked 3 Talos in a single turn. The game before that, he wiped a 10-man Deathwatch Veterans squad in a single turn.

 

Sure, the damage is random, but is it worth it make Abaddon Warlord instead of taking this guy? Abaddon doesn't have to be the Warlord, all that does is get you 2 CPs.

 

 

You may have a point but Abaddon as a Warlord is definitely valuable in a defensive player's arsenal... thinking big picture here and not just what a single model can do. Those 2 CP = 12 Oblit shots, and Abaddon doesn't give up WL kill very easily!

 

I don't know how tanky he is, and I realize he's very cost effective, but he does consume a lot of valuable resources... he's CP hungry, uses your relic, and WL Trait, and possibly buffed by a Sorc. When I play something like that it has to do some real damage to show my that it's worth the price of admission. 

 

I will try him a few more times though. Perhaps take him out of the Raptorial Detachment to get him the bonus Mortal wound.

[Sception]

You could make a jump sorc or a second jump lord a field commander for the +2 charge range, and still give a raptorial chain lord in the same detachment the flames of spite warlord trait.

 

Personally, I like other warlords better.  Throwing your warlord into scrums feels like it's inviting the opponent to kill them, and even reaching melee with a lord can be a pain.  even with the bonus raptorial charges are still far from guaranteed, and can be easily bubble wrapped away from anything actually worth trading your warlord for if your army can't strip those screens turn one.  Yeah, chaincannon havocs, but chaincannons are only medium range while the havocs themselves are remarkably fragile.

[techsoldaten]

 

 

 

You may be overthinking it.

 

Chainlords might be the most points-efficient offensive option in the Codex. Since you don't pay for the relic or the warlord trait, you get a model with 6 AP -3 D2 attacks that cause 2 MWs on 6s. With Diabolic Strength and Veterans of the Long War, it's 7 S6 attacks and he's doing those mortal wounds on 5s. Plus he can take MoK and use Fury of Khorne to fight twice.

 

My last game, he tanked 3 Talos in a single turn. The game before that, he wiped a 10-man Deathwatch Veterans squad in a single turn.

 

Sure, the damage is random, but is it worth it make Abaddon Warlord instead of taking this guy? Abaddon doesn't have to be the Warlord, all that does is get you 2 CPs.

 

 

You may have a point but Abaddon as a Warlord is definitely valuable in a defensive player's arsenal... thinking big picture here and not just what a single model can do. Those 2 CP = 12 Oblit shots, and Abaddon doesn't give up WL kill very easily!

 

I don't know how tanky he is, and I realize he's very cost effective, but he does consume a lot of valuable resources... he's CP hungry, uses your relic, and WL Trait, and possibly buffed by a Sorc. When I play something like that it has to do some real damage to show my that it's worth the price of admission. 

 

I will try him a few more times though. Perhaps take him out of the Raptorial Detachment to get him the bonus Mortal wound.

 

 

Yeah, everything you said about the Chainlord is true and important to understand. To get the most out of him, it does cost CPs and you do need a Sorcerer nearby.

 

Also, it's fair to say my fascination is based on experiences that may not represent how he will perform in the average game. This would not be the first time I liked a unit only to find it wanting in the long run.

 

That said, when the Chainlord works out, he REALLY works out. The first time I had him up to 8 attacks and rolled 4 5+ to wound was amazing.

[Sception]

Getting an exalted nearby for rerolling failed wounds would also be nice, though being infantry only it's hard to keep an exalted in range of a bike or jump chainlord.  You could go for a chain exalted instead, but the lack of an invulnerable save makes him even easier to pick up.

 

Such a shame you can't give an exalted champion a warlord trait via council of traitors.  I'm skeptical of a chain lord as my army's main warlord, but I would *love* to take a chain champ with flames of spite as a side dude.  Oh, well.

[Prot]

Well I think he's a tough sell for me just because in my meta (Tau, Astra, Dark Eldar, etc) it's a forgone conclusion that he's going to hit and die unless I dedicate a massive  amount to him. 

 

That's why threads like this are nice. It's good to get actual playing experiences beyond theory hammer from a few sources so I can see if my experiences are just.... confined to my last few games for example.