How viable is an all infantry army?

[Andy Tea]

Hi,

 

I'm new to chaos, I've never really liked space marines in general but some of these new chaos minis are really tempting. So I've got the codex and come up with a very vague idea of doing an all infantry army. 

 

How viable would that be, it doesn't have to be really competitive just good enough for me to hold my own in pick up games.

 

I'm thinking something very roughly along these lines

 

HQ

Haarken World Claimer

Chaos lord of some sort

Chaos exalted champion

 

10x CSM - Shooty or CC?

10x CSM- Shooty or CC?

10x CSM- Shooty

 

10x Chosen - Pistols and CC

5x Terminators or possibly more chosen

 

5x Raptors

5x Raptors

5x Warp Talons

 

5x Havocs - Auto cannons

5x Havocs Las Cannons

 

2x Obliterators

 

as I said its a very rough idea, i'm torn between having 3 units of 10 shooty marines and some close combat chosen or units of close combat marines and some terminators

 

Sorry this is most just a stream on consciousness but I've no idea where to start so any guidance would be good

 

Cheers

 

Andy

 

 

 

[BolterZorro]

My 2 cts:

- As you include some obliterators, they are better by units of 3. In fact they are amazing once buffed. Even at 115 (but a little bit expensive: I'd prefer them around 95/100). And the official GW answer is the latest price is the right one until further notice, which means the 65pts typo is the official price (for just some more few days lol)

- I'd go 2 detachments route: one (at least) will be corsair to get the shinny additional CPs

- with all infantry, Abbadon is really nice...and infantry ;-)

- harken: I've read that he is not that great: transform him in a lord with jumppack ;-)

- build the list with a role for each unit. 

[Kraken]

Haarken is crap, take a Jump pack lord instead (you can still use his mini since he looks cool).

[Andy Tea]

Thanks so jump Lord instead of Haarken - got it.

 

To be fair I'm quite rusty on 40k as a whole, probably not played in about a year and that was only a couple of casual games.

 

I've not decided on a legion not but possibly the renegade chapters one, certainly not any of the 4 god specific ones. Not got as far as detachment yet.

Also I'll probably end up just using power level as the guy I normally play with is lazy

 

By infantry I mean man sized (roughly I know the obliterators are a bit bigger) just to save case space so whilst Abaddon is technically infantry he might be a bit big.

 

What's people thoughts on Chosen vs Terminators?

[Frostglaive]

If you're doing all-infantry, I'd choose Terminators over Chosen. More durable and able to deep strike. Chosen aren't a bad option, but I'd argue they are better off running inside of a Rhino just to be able to keep alive on the table for an extra turn. They're still just as squishy as Chaos Marines, just more options for weapons and that +1 A and Ld.

 

All-infantry, go Terminators.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Infantry spam can definitely work. 

 

If you are doing Black Legion use Abbadon at the center and take large units as base troops. 

 

Irons work much the same though Black Legion and Red Corsairs have the advantage due to the new rules in Vigilus Ablaze. 

[Brother Aiwass]

This is an interesting topic. How viable would be without fearless bubble? I guess not much, but would love to know more on this matter.

[WarriorFish]

Foot slogging up the table can be hard, especially if you're aiming for close range or combat. Anything to help mitigate losses due to morale on the way will go a long way; you'll take some on the way without doubt so numbers are important but opponents will focus fire. This means that some redundancy is also good to have so your opponent's decisions aren't quite so easy.

 

It's exacerbated for me as I'm trying to get up the table to stab people more than shoot them (though plenty of that goes on too), but you may find that it comes down to your opponent a lot. Even with casual/friendly games there's some gap in how things can go. For example if my opponent is interested in yomping across the board also (whether for combat, or close range shooting etc) then it's game on. If my opponent isn't and wants to shoot lots then it can be tough, especially against more shooty codices that are better at it

 

The important thing I think is to be aware of the limitations of Marines in the current game; so long as you know what you're getting into you can work with it better This is also why I'd recommend taking at least a mix rather than Chosen vs Terminators outright. Chosen are good, but die as well as any other Marines - this is more important in a foot list where they can't hide and will likely become the target of focus fire. Terminators can teleport in and weather some fire that normal Marines may struggle with, so will offer an alternative for you that could be important :tu:

[Mallios]

If you are running all infantry, expect the enemy's antitank fire to zero in on your biggest ones, such as termies and oblits. Try to use terrain to keep them out of sight as much as possible once they deepstrike in

[Andy Tea]

I'm now considering 2 different approach.

Firstly allowing Abaddon after all and using him as the centre of melee focused core troops

 

Or going shooty core backed up with havoc and then using stuff that can deep strike (Terminators, warp talons, raptor etc.) As my CC arm

[Ghorgul]

If you are running all infantry, expect the enemy's antitank fire to zero in on your biggest ones, such as termies and oblits. Try to use terrain to keep them out of sight as much as possible once they deepstrike in

Correct. However this post hightlights the weakness of basic marines, when lacking other targets specialized antitank is actually ok against marines because the base cost is already so high. Very few vehicles in the game pay even 10 points for their T7/T8 wounds, most pay far less. Considering whole game system, current unit and weapon 'space' is too narrow and then marines are too hard in the middle of this narrow space meaning almost every weapon in game is mediocre-good against them.

AT weapons are extremely efficient against Warp Talons because those guys are silly expensive compared to their actual ability to do damage, seriously 5 Warp Talons can't even wipe off 10 guardsmen without significant buff/combo dedication, and is actually even worse against heavier targets without significant buff/combo stacking. Warp Talons might have been useful if they could 'fly' during combat phase, but Fly was completely nerfed earlier (because some other problem units, definitely not because of Warp Talons) and already borderline unusable unit Warp Talons became unusable. Fact is GW keeps power creeping and creating problematic units and then blanket nerfs these units by tinkering with core rules and then simultaneously nerfs 10+ other units which were not a problem.

 

And by the narrow unit and weapon space I mean the fact that for some reason most vehicles are T7-T8 when there isn't any obvious reason why this couldnt go higher and Sv 3+ although with the availability of AP -1 or better Sv 2+ should be far more justified. Even Sv 1+ should be employed with heaviest units because roll of 1 is still automatic failure, then we could get rid of some ridiculous 3++ invulnerability stacking combos which break the game mechanics even more.

However instead of innovating GW doubles down on their current system, which is essentially just rushed 'port' from previous editions, most units were directly 'imported' from previous edition while the way vehicles and weapons function was altered dramatically.

 

EDIT: Although I must add that Warp Talons/Raptors are much better now with Vigilus Ablaze because CSM have very efficient ways to clear screens. Still my personal opinion is both units are way too expensive when we consider their point cost, ability to do damage and durability all together. And the fact that it's still extremely hard to prevent enemies from falling back because of how 'Fly' has been handled.

[Mallios]

I may have been unclear; I wasn't complaining, I was just pointing out tactical considerations.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I would very much also like to try out an all infantry chaos army, and will certainly be doing so once I amass enough infantry. 

 

I don't think it's going to perform incredibly well, but I think it has potential to work at least. I think it is vital that the list have some sort of speed/deep striking element so you're not just stuck with m6/7" infantry starting in your deployment zone. You need something to reach those further objectives, whether it's terminators that can deep strike in or bikes/raptors that can move faster. 

 

I also think you need a reasonable number of bodies, as you'll be deep striking some element in you'll want some board coverage. Whether that means lots of small marine squads or cultists, you just need a reasonable board presence. 

 

Also as far as moral goes, I think that's a relatively easy issue to solve, just don't take big units. Most units can stay at 5 strong where they don't care about moral, with maybe a couple 10 man units. Of course if you're taking Abaddon not as big an issue, but I plan to stick to Red Corsairs for the extra cps. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Chaos vehicles aren't great so 'how viable is pure infantry' isn't that different to 'how viable is chaos'.

 

If Chaos is viable then infantry is a fine way to play chaos, if chaos isn't viable because of cultist nerfs your meta is all Eldar soup then it doesn't matter how you build your chaos list.