Knights of Blood

[shanewatts]

Hey all,

 

I am really keen on making my small BA contingent into a Knights of Blood force. I like the lore behind them and really would like to have a small force of them on the tabletop.

 

So after figuring out how I want to do the paint scheme I ran into a question. What to do about the chapter pad? Without a transfer or textured pad available (shapeways,) I was thinking of maybe re-inventing the symbol somewhat.  This would potentially fall in line with the fluff portrayed in the Devastation of Baal.

 

Devastation of Baal fluff spoiler within.

That the chapter was killed to a man

 

So with this idea in mind and knowing how prone they were to the flaws, I have two questions:

 

1. Should I try to "reinvent" the symbol?

 

2. If so what do you think would be a good symbol?

 

 

 

Edit: fixed formatting.

[Timberley]

Personally, if you're going off a chapter that already exists, then I would keep their badge.  This assumes you're using them as is.  If, however, you want them to be incognito, then I'd suggest maybe a blood drop with a sword through it or something...

 

Tim

[Panzer]

Well officially Dante said in Devastation of Baal that he won't re-build the chapter, so if you want to have your chapter relevant in the current timeline everything you do will be your own headcanon.

I did something similar with my "Knights of Baal" and more by accident than planned their chapter emblem turned out different. Originally I planned to use the same emblem but with inverted colours, however the emblem bitz I got from shapeways were practically impossible to clean without breaking the sword parts off of it so now my chapter got the same emblem as the Knights of Blood but without the sword parts. :P

 

Picture of my guys for reference (note that I also changed the red patches on the backpack a little bit, gave them GK Paladin helmets and that I use tilting shields for squad designation heraldry):

 

 

If you are interested about the fluff reasoning I've come up with I'll be happy to provide, but I don't want to turn this into a thread about my guys so I'll leave that out for now. 

[shanewatts]

sfPanzer - Thanks for sharing those photos, I also sent you a PM regarding your chapter fluff.

[Captain_Krash]

Well officially Dante said in Devastation of Baal that he won't re-build the chapter, so if you want to have your chapter relevant in the current timeline everything you do will be your own headcanon.

I did something similar with my "Knights of Baal" and more by accident than planned their chapter emblem turned out different. Originally I planned to use the same emblem but with inverted colours, however the emblem bitz I got from shapeways were practically impossible to clean without breaking the sword parts off of it so now my chapter got the same emblem as the Knights of Blood but without the sword parts.

 

Picture of my guys for reference (note that I also changed the red patches on the backpack a little bit, gave them GK Paladin helmets and that I use tilting shields for squad designation heraldry):

 

 

If you are interested about the fluff reasoning I've come up with I'll be happy to provide, but I don't want to turn this into a thread about my guys so I'll leave that out for now. 

 

Wow...seriously great job love the color scheme. 

 

Krash

[Captain_Krash]

Hey all,

 

I am really keen on making my small BA contingent into a Knights of Blood force. I like the lore behind them and really would like to have a small force of them on the tabletop.

 

So after figuring out how I want to do the paint scheme I ran into a question. What to do about the chapter pad? Without a transfer or textured pad available (shapeways,) I was thinking of maybe re-inventing the symbol somewhat.  This would potentially fall in line with the fluff portrayed in the Devastation of Baal.

 

Devastation of Baal fluff spoiler within.

That the chapter was killed to a man

 

So with this idea in mind and knowing how prone they were to the flaws, I have two questions:

 

1. Should I try to "reinvent" the symbol?

 

2. If so what do you think would be a good symbol?

 

 

 

Edit: fixed formatting.

 

If your interested...use these heads to represent the secret shame underneath their helmets...

 

http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/22/86_24_08_15_12_44_06_1.jpg

 

Krash

[Majkhel]

Good luck in your endeavor, shanewatts!
About the chapter badge invention: KoB already had one of the more complex symbol designs in 40k universe, having 3 different colors: red, black and white, as well as 3 charges (shapes): swords, shield and blood drop. If you want to represent a heraldic relation to KoB, then in practical (as it is in reality of heraldry) you can do whatever you want :P

You can for example add something to represent the legacy moving forward to a new beginning. This would make the icon more complicated still, but man it could look awesome! Imagine added wings. Or adding a chalice to the shield to represent bloodlust (blood drop) contained.
Or divide the coat of arms in two, leaving the left (sinister) part bearing the old KoB symbol, and the right (dexter) side bearing a completely new symbol. Or they could be halved. 

Other option is to remove something making the icon simpler. The swords maybe?

Still other option is to change something in the existing symbol.
Change one/some of the colors to represent absolution or new beginning. Or invert the swords to show a change of ways (Tzeench??? HERESY!!) of the Chapter. Or exchange the swords for wings or fist(s).

Possibilities are many :)

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Or you could simply make the KoB's colors and change the name entirely. The Mentor Legion took the colors of the Star Scorpions. So nothing is stopping you from making a DIY chapter with the KoB colors.

 

Or you could make the KoB as pre-indominus crusade if you are wanting to be fluffy, or you can simply make them however you feel is appropriate. Your universe, your imagination!

[Arkangilos]

Well officially Dante said in Devastation of Baal that he won't re-build the chapter, so if you want to have your chapter relevant in the current timeline everything you do will be your own headcanon.

I did something similar with my "Knights of Baal" and more by accident than planned their chapter emblem turned out different. Originally I planned to use the same emblem but with inverted colours, however the emblem bitz I got from shapeways were practically impossible to clean without breaking the sword parts off of it so now my chapter got the same emblem as the Knights of Blood but without the sword parts. :P

 

Picture of my guys for reference (note that I also changed the red patches on the backpack a little bit, gave them GK Paladin helmets and that I use tilting shields for squad designation heraldry):

 

 

If you are interested about the fluff reasoning I've come up with I'll be happy to provide, but I don't want to turn this into a thread about my guys so I'll leave that out for now.

Dante said a lot of things that didn’t hold up though.

 

People change their mind, and as far as I’m aware the codex (now set well after DoB) doesn’t say they weren’t recreated. He could have changed his mind.

 

But also two more things:

1) he isn’t a Primarch

2) he isn’t on terra or on the high lords.

 

He ultimately has no say on what chapters get to be remade. He can put in a good word, though.

 

So it’s not outside the realm of reason:

HLoT/Guilliman: “we won’t make a chapter named KOB because they were excommunicated.”

 

Battle report: “KoB died valiantly slaying the enemies of man.”

 

Guilliman/HLoT: “BA Primaris group 327, your new name is KoB. You don’t have any of their original genes though.”

[Panzer]

 

Well officially Dante said in Devastation of Baal that he won't re-build the chapter, so if you want to have your chapter relevant in the current timeline everything you do will be your own headcanon.

I did something similar with my "Knights of Baal" and more by accident than planned their chapter emblem turned out different. Originally I planned to use the same emblem but with inverted colours, however the emblem bitz I got from shapeways were practically impossible to clean without breaking the sword parts off of it so now my chapter got the same emblem as the Knights of Blood but without the sword parts.

 

Picture of my guys for reference (note that I also changed the red patches on the backpack a little bit, gave them GK Paladin helmets and that I use tilting shields for squad designation heraldry):

 

 

If you are interested about the fluff reasoning I've come up with I'll be happy to provide, but I don't want to turn this into a thread about my guys so I'll leave that out for now.

Dante said a lot of things that didn’t hold up though.

 

People change their mind, and as far as I’m aware the codex (now set well after DoB) doesn’t say they weren’t recreated. He could have changed his mind.

 

But also two more things:

1) he isn’t a Primarch

2) he isn’t on terra or on the high lords.

 

He ultimately has no say on what chapters get to be remade. He can put in a good word, though.

 

So it’s not outside the realm of reason:

HLoT/Guilliman: “we won’t make a chapter named KOB because they were excommunicated.”

 

Battle report: “KoB died valiantly slaying the enemies of man.”

 

Guilliman/HLoT: “BA Primaris group 327, your new name is KoB. You don’t have any of their original genes though.”

 

 

As long as we don't get told otherwise everything else is just headcanon though. I didn't say there aren't ways to justify things.

[Arkangilos]

Aren’t there pictures of KoB as Primaris though? Or am I misremembering? And I don’t have the codex, does the codex say anything about them?

 

Also, note that while I am saying that I don’t think there is any fluff saying they don’t exist (Dante saying he wants them to stay dead is not the same as them not being refounded, it’s just his opinion as someone who has no control in the matter), I still lean in the direction you do, just for different reasons.

 

The only thing that is canon is that they were wiped out and Dante did not (at that time) want them back. Beyond that there isn’t a definitive canon on if they were remade or not.

[Panzer]

The way Dante said it it didn't sound like he has no control in the matter though.

And yes there is one picture with a Primaris KoB. It's a poster with tons of different colour schemes for Primaris and it's from the Conquest thing iirc. It doesn't really say anything as it could just as well be a made by someone who doesn't know anything about the current state of the lore except for that Primaris exist.

[Arkangilos]

Can Dante found chapters? Can Dante tell the HLoT what to do? Can Dante tell a primarch what to do?

 

He can give his chapter’s resources to help rebuild and use influence, that’s it. Believe me, as someone who experiences this on a daily bases, someone can talk like they have the authority and not have the authority. Until otherwise states, both options are just head canon. There is nothing other than a poster that says one way or another other than that they were destroyed and Dante doesn’t want them remade. But he doesn’t get that choice anymore than Calgar does, or any other Chapter Master. They don’t control foundings.

[Panzer]

Can Dante found chapters? Can Dante tell the HLoT what to do? Can Dante tell a primarch what to do?

 

He can give his chapter’s resources to help rebuild and use influence, that’s it. Believe me, as someone who experiences this on a daily bases, someone can talk like they have the authority and not have the authority. Until otherwise states, both options are just head canon. There is nothing other than a poster that says one way or another other than that they were destroyed and Dante doesn’t want them remade. But he doesn’t get that choice anymore than Calgar does, or any other Chapter Master. They don’t control foundings.

 

Where is written what a Chapter Master can and can not do? Especially from a first founding chapter? Especially one as respected as Dante? Especially from the one Guilliman declared as regent of imperium nihilus?

 

As far as I am aware Chapter Masters from first founding chapters do have that kind of authority and the author of Devastation of Baal apparently thinks so too.

[Arkangilos]

Wasn’t there a whole debate on these forums about how the BA wouldn’t make normal marines either because of what Dante said, but here we are, and they are making normal marines still. So Dante clearly changes his mind.

 

To answer your post:

 

Literally all over the fluff. It constantly talks about how chapters are limited legally to prevent power struggles. Also it’s been said time and again that that’s more an honorific.

 

Also, you might want to read fluff on how foundings work. Only the HLoT have that control. It’s literally all over the place.

 

“The creation of new Chapters can only be ordered by the High Lords of Terra[11c], and it is said ultimately only from the Emperor Himself, although the actual process of creation is performed by the Adeptus Mechanicus.[1b]”

[Panzer]

Wasn’t there a whole debate on these forums about how the BA wouldn’t make normal marines either because of what Dante said, but here we are, and they are making normal marines still. So Dante clearly changes his mind.

 

To answer your post:

 

Literally all over the fluff. It constantly talks about how chapters are limited legally to prevent power struggles. Also it’s been said time and again that that’s more an honorific.

 

Also, you might want to read fluff on how foundings work. Only the HLoT have that control. It’s literally all over the place.

 

Dante never said they won't make normal Marines anymore though. He said that Primaris are the future and represent hope, but he also said to make normal Marines to speed up the time they and their brother chapters need to be battle ready again.

 

I guess I have to read up on that again then, doesn't change the fact that we got a novel telling us they are no more and nothing telling us they are still around though.

[Arkangilos]

We got a novel telling us they were destroyed. The state after that is head canon for every decision. It’s been around 200 years.

 

Also I’ve read the book, Dante never ordered normal marines made to speed up the process.

 

It boils down to this:

“Universal Canon and Truth: they WERE destroyed. Dante opposed them being refounded.”

 

Head canon A, “in my head they remained destroyed.”

Head canon B, “in my head canon they were remade.

[Panzer]

It's not said in the novel, it's in the Codex itself:

 

 

The several thousand grizzled aspirants who
survived the siege are all inducted, and
those that endure are funnelled into the
outsized Scout Companies authorised by
Commander Dante for his Chapter and
their successors.

 

 

 

As for the importance of the title Guilliman gave him, it got said only once in an interview and was only a side remark instead of an actual topic. However in the Codex we have this nugget as well:

 

 

 

CHAPTER COMMAND
Rule of the Blood Angels falls to the Chapter Master and his
council. In the wake of the Great Rift, Roboute Guilliman has
expanded their responsibilities beyond the Chapter, appointing
them to act as one of the foremost Imperial authorities in the
Imperium Nihilus [...]

[Arkangilos]

 

It's not said in the novel, it's in the Codex itself:

 

The several thousand grizzled aspirants who

survived the siege are all inducted, and

those that endure are funnelled into the

outsized Scout Companies authorised by

Commander Dante for his Chapter and

their successors.

 

 

As for the importance of the title Guilliman gave him, it got said only once in an interview and was only a side remark instead of an actual topic. However in the Codex we have this nugget as well:

CHAPTER COMMAND

Rule of the Blood Angels falls to the Chapter Master and his

council. In the wake of the Great Rift, Roboute Guilliman has

expanded their responsibilities beyond the Chapter, appointing

them to act as one of the foremost Imperial authorities in the

Imperium Nihilus [...]

Oh good! I’m glad that’s what it says :) I have never liked that “only honorary” thing.

 

That still doesn’t change foundings, though. Lol.

[Arkangilos]

For what it’s worth I think what you did is still more likely.

[shanewatts]

Thanks for the information everyone, I am still trying to work this out in my own head cannon haha.

 

I am leaning towards the KoB being reconstituted. Was every company of the KoB present during the Devastation? (I haven't gotten a chance to read it yet, supposed to arrive in the mail tonight!) Another idea swirling was that a company got displaced in time during warp transit maybe and missed the defense.

[Arkangilos]

Before doing that you should read the book. I don’t want to spoil anything, but the chapter was essentially mindless by this point. Reconstituted from nothing, having only the scheme and name would be the best option. Also keep in mind they are still considered excommunicated during the battle.

You’d have to come up with a good reason why they’d remake it given that it has a terrible name associated with it. And probably set it a hundred years or so later than the DoB.

 

Could make for a good but challenging story.

[Captain_Krash]

Seriously read Devastation of Baal please any Blood angels/Successor player really should.

 

Krash

[Frater Antodeniel]

About the Knights of Blood, the Devastation of Baal novel, while being a good Blood Angels reading, have quite a number of mistakes/errors and canon-conflicts regarding the Knights of Blood.

 

Amongst the many errors and canon conflicts Guy Haley did, there are :

 

- Canon conflict on the Knights of Blood, renegade statut. In Dante, Corbulo say that the Knights of Blood have been declared renegades by "the Ordo Astartes order alone" meaning that the Knights of Blood were not renegades for many other imperial institutions. In DoB, Seth described them as being declared renegades by the High Lords of Terra, like it is said in the Blood Angels codex 5th edition.

 

- Canon conflict on the renegade period, for in the Blood Angels codex 5th edition, it is stated that the KOB in early M41 and  after centuries of conflicts the KOB were declared renegades, meaning that the KOB have been renegades for nearly a millenia at the begining of the Devastation of Baal events that happens at the end of M41. But in DoB, Seth state that they were declared renegades only "several years ago".

 

- Regarding writing errors, it appears that Guy Haley made some errors regarding the Knights of Blood depiction. During their introduction chapter, the Knights of Blood appears as both careless in their deployment as they are an ordered force. Sentor Jool, the KOB chapter master is also depicted in a way that make him look like more of a scholar knight rather than a brutal berserker. On the same note, further in the novel, Guy Haley describe the Knights of Blood as being a loose force, but he also previously describe that they hold their ground as a whole against the Tyranids. There quite a number of other errors in Guy Haley depiction of the Knights of Blood in the DoB book.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

In the end, considering the Knights of Blood fluff material, their survival is a possible.

 

In Devastation of Baal, Guy Haley did as much good work as he did errors, regarding the Knights of Blood. Being cold one moment then hot the other. Problems in the description continuity lead me to consider his Knights of Blood as being half-Canon, with "holes" / "missing parts" / "errors".

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

As for the Knights of Blood survival, many scenario may happens. For exemple, some Knights of Blood may have argue against Sentor Jool vision of his chapter, for exemple some less afflicted members of the chapter, and those rebels may have not answered the call for the defence of Baal, or even may have fled during the opening of the rift, as mad an idea it may look to be.

 

On other scenario, you can have a wounded company, that may have not made for the call in time, or may never even heard of the call for the defence of Baal. And what about the Knights of Blood Astartes that would likely be protecting the chapter fortress monastery or any hidden gene-seed repository.

 

There are many ways a chapter may rebuilt itslef once again to glory. For in the 40k Universe, nothing is Impossible, everything is a question of strenght of will.

 

If you believe that the Knights of Blood survived, then they did.

 

Personally, in my "Canon", i believe that some Knights of Blood, less afflicted than others, fighting aboard the chapter fleet have escaped the Battle for Baal during the opening of the great rift, and that guided by a vision from Sanguinius they have engaged themselves in a Quest to bring back their chapter into the light and to protect Humanity.

[shanewatts]

Thanks again everyone for your input. I just finished reading DoB yesterday and I was pretty happy to have done so.

 

A few things I took away, regarding the Knights of Blood longevity:

 

1. While the Jool mentions that they can never return to Baal and all of them throw themselves into the fight, you never actually "see" all of them die. While I think it is safe to infer that everyone died, with a giant sigil of bones on the planet afterwards.

 

2. One thing I found interesting was that it was mentioned a few times that the daemon forces were essentially on the clock and wouldn't be able to be in realspace for long.

 

So in theory members of the Knights of Blood on the planet could have survived, maybe they were critically injured and buried under the tide of bodies only to survive because all the daemons poofed when their time ran out. I think there is just enough ambiguity to make it what you want really.

 

Long story short, I am going to stick with the Knights of Blood for my BA. Thanks again everyone for your thoughts and your input!