The Iron Tide: Can Mass Marines Work?

[Mordian Glory]

Greeting Fellow Chaos Scum!

 

I am looking into starting a CSM army, specifically a pure infantry mass marines list!

 

Now I know what many of you are thinking, "Marines a bad this edition! why would you want to spam them!?".Well my little cultists, let me explain the method in my warp induced madness!

 

I have had great success running a Black Tide with my Black Templars, using Crusader Squads which are like tactical marines but you can take scouts and marines mixed together in squads of between 5 and 20. I want to now apply the same principle to CSM, which I think have the potential to take my mass marine idea to the next level.

 

You see, whilst Crusader squads are good they are limited in 2 ways. Firstly at best you can take 10 Marines and 10 Scouts mixed together, which means that you have half your army running only a 4+ save which just isn't good enough. Secondly, they have to take a special and a heavy weapon. On the other hand, CSM squads can also be run in squads of 20, but everyone gets power armour! Also there is a greater degree of flexibility as I can choose to have 2 special weapons, 2 heavy weapons or 1 of each in my Chaos squads.

 

Now I am sure some of you are saying "OK interesting idea, but why not run this as loyalists? They get Captains and Lieutenants to help reroll 1s". Indeed you are correct. However, Chaos have their own tricks for boosting shooting. Chaos Lords are much like Captains, but instead of Lts we can get buffs such as VotLW, Prescience and now Warp-Sight Plea (the new Dark Apostle Prayer). Whilst these dont give us rerolls they do give us something much stronger, +1 to hit and wound modifiers :)

 

Also in general, our buffs work much better on large units, like 20 man blobs of CSM. We can use Delightful Agonies to give a 5+ FNP save , Iron Within Iron Without to give another blob a 6+ FNP, Prescience, Warp Sighted Plea, Endless Cacophony and VotLW. Also we can use another or the Dark Apostles Prayers, illusory supplication , to give 5+ invulnerable save to all units in 6". 

 

I am thinking that the best way to run this is a Slaanesh Iron Warriros. The IW warlord trait allows me to make my 20 marines blobs fearless. Slaanesh lets me use many key strats and psychic powers mentioned before.

 

So how do I plan to implement this mad plan? I have concocted the list below:

 

Iron Warriors Battalion 1:

HQ:

Chaos Lord: Warlod Trait Cold and Bitter, Fleshmetal Exoskeleton, Bolter, Power Axe

Dark Apostle: Power Maul, Bolt Pistol, Dark Disciple, Prayer: Warp Sighted Plea 

 

Troops:

20x CSM: 2x Plasma, Champ with Combi Plasma, 17x Bolters  

20x CSM: 2x Plasma, Champ with Combi Plasma, 17x Bolters

20x CSM: 2x Plasma, Champ with Combi Plasma, 17x Bolters

20x CSM: 2x Plasma, Champ with Combi Plasma, 17x Bolters

 

Iron Warriors Battalion 2:

Chaos Lord: Combi Bolter, Power Axe

Sorcerer: Bolt Pistol and Force Sword. Spells: Prescience and Delightful Agonies

 

Troops:

10x CSM: 2x Autocannon, Champ with Combi Plasma, 7x Bolters  

10x CSM: 2x Autocannon, Champ with Combi Plasma, 7x Bolters

10x CSM: 2x Autocannon, Champ with Combi Plasma, 7x Bolters

 

Thats 110 MEQ at 2000pts!. Im thinking of having the Warlord, DA and Sorc together surrounded by 3 of the 20 man blobs. The 4th 20 man blob can either act as a screen against assault units or also go near the warlord. The remaining 10 man squads will set up and create a fire base with the 2nd Lord. 

 

So thats it my fellow Lords! Tell me your thoughts :) I plan on playing a few practice games to iron out kinks in the list, but I am fairly committed to this project now. I really like the idea of emulating the legions :D

[Captain_Krash]

Mordian...you and I think a like. I played Iron tide from 3rd edition till about mid way through 7th. Yes it can work. Especially from a psychological stand point. Looking at all that power armor can be intimidating.

 

Can't wait to see what comes of this.

 

Krash

[Midnight Brotherhood]

The only thing that scares me is the cost and time of such a project! That's a good £300+ you gotta spend on marines there, and then painting them all without burning out :o

 

While the concept is cool I think it is worth at least having some dreadnoughts or Rhinos, the legions HAD mass infantry but they didn't just deploy mass infantry all the time. Iron Warriors especially love to chuck some fleshy meatbags at the front so maybe look into some cultists as well? It could be worth rejigging some of your battalion to include cultists so that you can have some transport for the small marine squads and/or dreadnoughts too.

[Frostglaive]

Is it the most competitive or optimized list out there? No. But is it going to be hilarious and fun to fight with and/or against?! ABSOLUTELY!

Gonna be honest, I kinda wanna do the same thing now

[Trevak Dal]

I'd love to do a 30k style horde army. Solid block of 60 chaos Marines (wish we could take Bolter/bolt pistols and chainswords but what can you do?) 3x5 chosen with specials and havocs with maybe a obliterator squad or two.

 

I was hoping to get a Dark Angel style "only ever lose one guy to moral" legion tactic, in my dice rolling I've been unlucky.

 

Like the Showers Ambush in the movie The Rock unlucky.

 

Like Pickett's charge unlucky.

[Closet Skeleton]

I've run it near the start of 8th.

 

10 terminators

 

15 raptors

 

3 squads of 20 troops marines.

 

Chaos Lord and Sorcerer.

 

Admech (way pre their current points drops) blew me off the table. Raven Guard neutered me with a thunderfire cannon and a few heavy weapons. Steel Legion wore me down taking little casualties. I obliterated Grey Knights though.

 

After 2 editions of chapter approved the list went from 2000 to 1826 and it wasn't very efficient to start with so you could certainly do better.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Mass Marines can *DEFINITELY* work. 

 

North-Eastern tourney last year the list that took fifth place (out of 100 players I think it was) was Abbadon +  cheapo Lord + 100 Marines (Don't remember off hand what filled the rest of the list...but you get the idea!) So the potential is certainly there, especially now post-ablaze. 

 

Black Legion and Red Corsairs do it now very well, though for different reasons. Namely Abbadon + Black Legion strategem choices and bonuses... or the Red Corsairs having a STUPID amount of CP combined with "More where that came from!" strategem to respawn a full 20 man unit, and frankly even without a fearless aura they won't care about Morale on a single unit of marines due to having insane CP to blow.

 

The Irons pull up in third place (much to my chagrin) for this strategy just due to lacking additional rules that the Corsairs and Black Legion get though "ignore cover" is quite useful with new havocs and having 2-3 huge blobs that are fearless is super useful as with any of these lists. 

[Mordian Glory]

Mordian...you and I think a like. I played Iron tide from 3rd edition till about mid way through 7th. Yes it can work. Especially from a psychological stand point. Looking at all that power armor can be intimidating.

 

Can't wait to see what comes of this.

 

Krash

 

Thanks Krash, Its good to hear that the army can work across multiple editions :) I am very excited about this project and I am already looking at how im going to put the army together :D

 

The only thing that scares me is the cost and time of such a project! That's a good £300+ you gotta spend on marines there, and then painting them all without burning out

 

While the concept is cool I think it is worth at least having some dreadnoughts or Rhinos, the legions HAD mass infantry but they didn't just deploy mass infantry all the time. Iron Warriors especially love to chuck some fleshy meatbags at the front so maybe look into some cultists as well? It could be worth rejigging some of your battalion to include cultists so that you can have some transport for the small marine squads and/or dreadnoughts too.

 

I am a horde player through and through. Every army I collect I go for pure infantry! So fear not, I am used to doing this kind of project :D I am also fortunate to have a good income, but even so I will be buying the models from various discount sources many of which offer 25% off. 

 

Is it the most competitive or optimized list out there? No. But is it going to be hilarious and fun to fight with and/or against?! ABSOLUTELY!

 

Gonna be honest, I kinda wanna do the same thing now

 

Do it! Just make sure to pick an easy paint scheme tha you like :) 

 

I'd love to do a 30k style horde army. Solid block of 60 chaos Marines (wish we could take Bolter/bolt pistols and chainswords but what can you do?) 3x5 chosen with specials and havocs with maybe a obliterator squad or two.

 

I was hoping to get a Dark Angel style "only ever lose one guy to moral" legion tactic, in my dice rolling I've been unlucky.

 

Like the Showers Ambush in the movie The Rock unlucky.

 

Like Pickett's charge unlucky.

 

Wow that is unlucky! 

 

I've run it near the start of 8th.

 

10 terminators

 

15 raptors

 

3 squads of 20 troops marines.

 

Chaos Lord and Sorcerer.

 

Admech (way pre their current points drops) blew me off the table. Raven Guard neutered me with a thunderfire cannon and a few heavy weapons. Steel Legion wore me down taking little casualties. I obliterated Grey Knights though.

 

After 2 editions of chapter approved the list went from 2000 to 1826 and it wasn't very efficient to start with so you could certainly do better.

 

I think the key to the idea is to avoid any elite or special units. The main aim is to get big numbers of bodies on the board. The key to making this work I suspect lies in being able to balance special weapons with numbers of men. No point in having lots of guys, if all I have is bolters. Likewise if I have lots of damage output from plasma but not enough bodies to absorb casualties, thats also going to be a problem.

[WarriorFish]

This topic will be worth a poke, generally speaking it can work but you need to mitigate morale losses as they can sting. Saturation is always a valid tactic, as opponents will increasingly struggle as they need to devote less optimal resources against you - but there's always variables such as mission to contend with. Mobility can be a bit of an issue, but like playing Guard you can gain a measure of that by simply having enough models to be everywhere

 

The most important thing is it'll be cool, and Rule of Cool is the most important rule of all - the dice gods will surely look favourably on such a (painted) army

[Furnace Lord]

I think Black Legion can pull this off. Use Abaddon for morale, advance and still be able to fire bolters, stratagem if you outnumber your enemy, stratagem to switch off obsec near Black Legion units, and possibly Mark of Slaanesh for even more shooting. I don't know if it's optimal but it sounds fun :)

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Mass Marines can *DEFINITELY* work. 

 

North-Eastern tourney last year the list that took fifth place (out of 100 players I think it was) was Abbadon +  cheapo Lord + 100 Marines (Don't remember off hand what filled the rest of the list...but you get the idea!) So the potential is certainly there, especially now post-ablaze. 

 

Black Legion and Red Corsairs do it now very well, though for different reasons. Namely Abbadon + Black Legion strategem choices and bonuses... or the Red Corsairs having a STUPID amount of CP combined with "More where that came from!" strategem to respawn a full 20 man unit, and frankly even without a fearless aura they won't care about Morale on a single unit of marines due to having insane CP to blow.

 

The Irons pull up in third place (much to my chagrin) for this strategy just due to lacking additional rules that the Corsairs and Black Legion get though "ignore cover" is quite useful with new havocs and having 2-3 huge blobs that are fearless is super useful as with any of these lists. 

You could also do this with some effectiveness by running Iron Warriors and a Fallen Angels Detachment together, particularly given Cypher's "no soup for you" special ability where he cancels command farming within a certain range. The Fallen can operate outside the Cold and Bitter bubble because of their native morale mitigation and they have a -1 to be hit Stratagem adding further durability. They can park in midfield and hold it (at the max range for Agent of Discord) while the rest of the army surges further forward.

 

This could also be interesting with Red Corsairs....shutting down opposing command farming while using a ton of CP yourself. Fallen in their black and red would look cool with the Corsairs in their red and black.

[Charlo]

Not to mention the Fallen bring a lot of special weapons with the opportunity to hide in extra bodies too. While a touch expensive, a Vanguard of Cypher and three tooled up fallen squads in Rhinos could be a nice core to this.

[Trevak Dal]

...man I just had another one of my "this would be a cool thematic thing that can't be done within the rules" moments that depress me so.

 

It's why I come to love pen and paper RPGs.

 

But imagine if Fallen could trade their bolters for plasma pistols and go gunslinger like Cypher? It would make them different from chosen.

 

Though if you wanted to run a lot of veterans (with only some getting veterans of the long war access unless you choose a Renegade faction) 3x10 Fallen and 3x10 chosen could get er done as the Cable Man says.

[ChazSexington]

Y'all might appreciate this article from VarianceHammer:
http://variancehammer.com/2019/04/04/lanchesters-laws-and-the-veritas-ferrum/

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Working in Logistics and IT as I do, Operations Research is near and dear to my heart. F.W. Lanchester is always interesting. Thanks.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Y'all might appreciate this article from VarianceHammer:

http://variancehammer.com/2019/04/04/lanchesters-laws-and-the-veritas-ferrum/

 

Fascinating piece. But as we all know sometimes stats fail us (as is the nature of randomness!) and of course he said it in the article that he was assuming equal points between the two with no terrain and all in double tap.

 

I would imagine that once we look at including things such as Bolter Discipline and Terrain features/cover (which disproportionately protect marines far more then guardsmen) that this altercation becomes far more balanced across the board. 

[ChazSexington]

Working in Logistics and IT as I do, Operations Research is near and dear to my heart. F.W. Lanchester is always interesting. Thanks.

 

My pleasure! Saw it earlier today and thought quite a few would enjoy it!

 

 

Y'all might appreciate this article from VarianceHammer:

http://variancehammer.com/2019/04/04/lanchesters-laws-and-the-veritas-ferrum/

 

Fascinating piece. But as we all know sometimes stats fail us (as is the nature of randomness!) and of course he said it in the article that he was assuming equal points between the two with no terrain and all in double tap.

 

I would imagine that once we look at including things such as Bolter Discipline and Terrain features/cover (which disproportionately protect marines far more then guardsmen) that this altercation becomes far more balanced across the board. 

 

 

Cover would help the IG, I think, as their durability goes up by more relatively. But aye, he does point out there's plenty of disclaimers.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think cover would help the marines more as in 8th it turns a 3+ save (33.3% of failing) into a 2+ save (16.7% of failing), a 50% reduction in casualties.

 

For guard it turns s 5+ save (66.7% of failing) into a 4+ save (a 50% of faliing), a 25 % reduction in casualties.

 

In previous editions where it essentially gave an type of invulnerable save, it was better for units with crappier saves who otherwise wouldn't get a save due to AP or where the cover save was better than their armour save.  In 8th, though, the better your save the better cover is for you.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Also guard have to get close enough TO double tap which for them is a bit more of a perilous as opposed to marines with bolter discipline. Though at this point its all theoryhammer as opposed to mathhammer lol. 

 

Either way I get that "MOAR = Better" but things look to be shifting a bit in favor of marines over time. The new chaos rules make it far easier to run large marine numbers (Corsairs, Abbadon+Merciless among others) 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Greeting Fellow Chaos Scum!

 

I am looking into starting a CSM army, specifically a pure infantry mass marines list!

 

Now I know what many of you are thinking, "Marines a bad this edition! why would you want to spam them!?".Well my little cultists, let me explain the method in my warp induced madness!

 

I have had great success running a Black Tide with my Black Templars, using Crusader Squads which are like tactical marines but you can take scouts and marines mixed together in squads of between 5 and 20. I want to now apply the same principle to CSM, which I think have the potential to take my mass marine idea to the next level.

 

You see, whilst Crusader squads are good they are limited in 2 ways. Firstly at best you can take 10 Marines and 10 Scouts mixed together, which means that you have half your army running only a 4+ save which just isn't good enough. Secondly, they have to take a special and a heavy weapon. On the other hand, CSM squads can also be run in squads of 20, but everyone gets power armour! Also there is a greater degree of flexibility as I can choose to have 2 special weapons, 2 heavy weapons or 1 of each in my Chaos squads.

 

Now I am sure some of you are saying "OK interesting idea, but why not run this as loyalists? They get Captains and Lieutenants to help reroll 1s". Indeed you are correct. However, Chaos have their own tricks for boosting shooting. Chaos Lords are much like Captains, but instead of Lts we can get buffs such as VotLW, Prescience and now Warp-Sight Plea (the new Dark Apostle Prayer). Whilst these dont give us rerolls they do give us something much stronger, +1 to hit and wound modifiers

 

Also in general, our buffs work much better on large units, like 20 man blobs of CSM. We can use Delightful Agonies to give a 5+ FNP save , Iron Within Iron Without to give another blob a 6+ FNP, Prescience, Warp Sighted Plea, Endless Cacophony and VotLW. Also we can use another or the Dark Apostles Prayers, illusory supplication , to give 5+ invulnerable save to all units in 6". 

 

I am thinking that the best way to run this is a Slaanesh Iron Warriros. The IW warlord trait allows me to make my 20 marines blobs fearless. Slaanesh lets me use many key strats and psychic powers mentioned before.

 

So how do I plan to implement this mad plan? I have concocted the list below:

 

Iron Warriors Battalion 1:

HQ:

Chaos Lord: Warlod Trait Cold and Bitter, Fleshmetal Exoskeleton, Bolter, Power Axe

Dark Apostle: Power Maul, Bolt Pistol, Dark Disciple, Prayer: Warp Sighted Plea 

 

Troops:

20x CSM: 2x Plasma, Champ with Combi Plasma, 17x Bolters  

20x CSM: 2x Plasma, Champ with Combi Plasma, 17x Bolters

20x CSM: 2x Plasma, Champ with Combi Plasma, 17x Bolters

20x CSM: 2x Plasma, Champ with Combi Plasma, 17x Bolters

 

Iron Warriors Battalion 2:

Chaos Lord: Combi Bolter, Power Axe

Sorcerer: Bolt Pistol and Force Sword. Spells: Prescience and Delightful Agonies

 

Troops:

10x CSM: 2x Autocannon, Champ with Combi Plasma, 7x Bolters  

10x CSM: 2x Autocannon, Champ with Combi Plasma, 7x Bolters

10x CSM: 2x Autocannon, Champ with Combi Plasma, 7x Bolters

 

Thats 110 MEQ at 2000pts!. Im thinking of having the Warlord, DA and Sorc together surrounded by 3 of the 20 man blobs. The 4th 20 man blob can either act as a screen against assault units or also go near the warlord. The remaining 10 man squads will set up and create a fire base with the 2nd Lord. 

 

So thats it my fellow Lords! Tell me your thoughts I plan on playing a few practice games to iron out kinks in the list, but I am fairly committed to this project now. I really like the idea of emulating the legions

Hey Mordian I think you are approaching this too much like a loyalist. 

Judging from your Black Templars army Im going to assume you like a balance of shooting/CC.

Here are some options you must consider before committing to the dark gods.

 

1.  Consider using a renegades legion.  Your list idea is not going to get much mileage out of VoTLW since all your units are the same and somewhat tame in terms of concentrated firepower.  In any given turn you only benefit from +1 to wound on 1/7th of your firepower?  Maybe 1/5th if you account for squad size.  Using your current list concept, The Purge seems like a much stronger choice.  That reroll buff is super powerful since it is "reroll hits" NOT "reroll failed hits".  Another great option is the Red Corsairs for 6 extra CP and you can advance + charge and you can use the new tide of traitors on your CSM blobs.  Awesome stuff. 

 

2. Cult troops could be your primary source of pain. Khorne Berzerkers and Possessed can blob up to 20 also.  If you want to be a serious CC threat, these units are terrific.  Vastly better than Black Templars imo. 

 

Dont forget Noise Marines!  These guys blob up to 20 also but 10 is probably better.  They always get to shoot and work well as any legion that can take them.  I think they are best as Red Corsairs because they can advance+shoot+charge.

 

Plague marines in 20 man blobs with a dark apostle giving them the 5+ invuln prayer will be obnoxious to remove.  If you run them as alpha legion, yuck.  

 

3.  The Black Legion is straight up better than Iron Warriors.  Ok that is controversial but the point is that BL has the Boss and he is a terrifying beatstick that grants more and better buffs.  His legion also has some disgusting stratagems such as World Breakers(i think?)  that gives UBER obsec. 

 

4.  Where are your obliterators??  NO daemon prince?? Iron Warriors without oblits or a daemon prince, utter nonsense!  This is about as ridiculous as Imperial Guard without infantry and tanks.  

 

5.  You should also consider a small allied detachment that gives you an edge.  Something like a Khorne daemons patrol with a Skullreaver Prince + 20 bloodletters(345 points).  Think of it as the chaos version of Scions.  This detachment is fairly cheap but hits like a freight train.     

[MegaVolt87]

Its a big commitment for that kind of force, though if the beta bolter rules go gold it may be more worth doing. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Its a big commitment for that kind of force, though if the beta bolter rules go gold it may be more worth doing. 

Haha i never considered that maybe the beta bolter rules wont be finalized.  God that would suck!

[Closet Skeleton]

Also guard have to get close enough TO double tap which for them is a bit more of a perilous as opposed to marines with bolter discipline. Though at this point its all theoryhammer as opposed to mathhammer lol. 

 

Either way I get that "MOAR = Better" but things look to be shifting a bit in favor of marines over time. The new chaos rules make it far easier to run large marine numbers (Corsairs, Abbadon+Merciless among others) 

 

First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire is better than Bolter Discipline, especially with the Vostroyan or Steel Legion traits.

 

If you actually want to get those guys into double tap range, bolter discipline is actually really bad. Guard are just more maneuverable than marines. The only actual way for 300 guardsmen to be in double tap range of 100 marines is for the marines to be encircled which on rectangular builds where refused flank is pretty simple is unlikely.

 

So what would actually happen is the marines hide in a corner so they can't be outmaneuvered and can use bolter discipline and win every fire fight but get crushed on the objective game.

 

50 Space Marine bikes on the other hand have the same durability and firepower but would probably obliterate the guard in blocks of 50 while suffering minimal return fire.

 

 

1998 points

 

Iron Warriors Battalion

Chaos Lord, Warlord: Cold and Bitter

power maul (black mace), combi-bolter

 

Chaos Sorcerer

force sword, combi-bolter

 

20 Chaos Space Marines

2 plasma guns, combi-plasma and chainaxe champion

 

20 Chaos Space Marines

2 plasma guns, combi-plasma and chainaxe champion

 

20 Chaos Space Marines

2 plasma guns, combi-plasma and chainaxe champion

Alpha legion battalion

 

Chaos Lord on Bike

chain sword (blade of the hydra), 2 combi-bolters

10 Chaos Bikers

Chainswords, combi-bolters, combi-melta champion, 2 meltaguns

 

10 Chaos Bikers

Chainswords, combi-bolters combi-melta champion, 2 meltaguns

 

10 Chaos Bikers

Chainswords, combi-bolters combi-melta champion, 2 meltaguns

 

 

Could ditch the havocs for special weapons on the bikers.

 

Its only 93 marine bodies but its 120 non-character wounds and 115 pre double tap bolter shots compared to Mordian Glory's 92, not to mention that my lists chance of actually double tapping is much higher.

[techsoldaten]

 

Also guard have to get close enough TO double tap which for them is a bit more of a perilous as opposed to marines with bolter discipline. Though at this point its all theoryhammer as opposed to mathhammer lol. 

 

Either way I get that "MOAR = Better" but things look to be shifting a bit in favor of marines over time. The new chaos rules make it far easier to run large marine numbers (Corsairs, Abbadon+Merciless among others) 

 

First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire is better than Bolter Discipline, especially with the Vostroyan or Steel Legion traits.

 

If you actually want to get those guys into double tap range, bolter discipline is actually really bad. Guard are just more maneuverable than marines. The only actual way for 300 guardsmen to be in double tap range of 100 marines is for the marines to be encircled which on rectangular builds where refused flank is pretty simple is unlikely.

 

So what would actually happen is the marines hide in a corner so they can't be outmaneuvered and can use bolter discipline and win every fire fight but get crushed on the objective game.

 

50 Space Marine bikes on the other hand have the same durability and firepower but would probably obliterate the guard in blocks of 50 while suffering minimal return fire.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing. If only there were some formations / Codex options to make such an army viable from an HQ / CP perspective...

 

Skew lists are near and dear to my heart, but 110 Marines would be very risky. I could see games where they just march across the board, I could see games where a pair of Knights table the army turn 4.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I mean knights is a big weakness for massed bolter list. Having lots of shots over high strength this edition definitely wins out, but I think there are limits to that. Massed s4 with no ap is going to struggle to deal with T8 +3 armored, whereas knights could wade into that mass of infantry pretty quickly and start taking them down fairly fast, and the limited number of plasma/heavy weapons in the army isn't really going to cut it. There are some stratagems that help like veterans of the long war ofc, but I don't think that makes up the difference. 

 

I think a massed marine list would benefit by having a little diversity, throw in maybe a few havocs for extra firepower and bikes/raptors for a bit of speed, plus higher concentration of special weapons.