Legal loadouts after GW's putting limited options in kits?

[HighMarshalAmp]

With the new releases, I feel it's high time to get my rubrics done (I've got 5 painted up and am quite proud of myself  ) and expand on my Chaos forces.

Of course, I need some Plasma to bolster my Egyptian Smite... and that's where it gets tacky.

 

With the Chain Cannon being a rather attractive addition to the Havocs' arsenal and only one being available per box, it's flaring obvious that GW are going for the cash grab. And the new Terminators have only one Combi-Plasma bit per box as well, 'cause if anyone's suicidal enough to buy Terminators these days, you better make sure they buy a lot of them ere they come to their senses. I get that.

 

Alright, I thought, 5 bucks on eBay to turn a Terminator into a Terminator with a Plasma gun. I've spent more money on less reasonable things.

But when I thought I could do the same with Aspiring Champions and just get another Combi-Plasma for one of them... I realized that there aren't any Combi weapons in the new CSM box.

 

All due respect, GW, for pushing Loyalists towards gunlines and Traitors towards melee, kudos to you for following your visions, but a little less on-the-nose would be nice.

'kay, rant over, thank you for listening, sorry to make a fuss.

 

So is the Combi-Plasma still a legal piece of equipment for Aspiring Champions in C:CSM II?

GW are going for 'no rules without a model to go along' after all.

And was it legal in C:CSM I in the first place?

[Dragonlover]

=][= I've edited the title to something a little less inflammatory. If this turns into a moan-fest about the limited options I'll be giving the melta some more work. =][=

 

Dragonlover

[Lexington]

Still legal, yeah - all three Combi-Weapons still appear in the Champion Equipment List, plus they exist in the Indexes, so we’d be good anyway.

[MegaVolt87]

You could take the power maul, power sword, chain axe, x2 lightning claws (separate) with Heavy flamer, x2 combi flamer, x2 combi bolter out of the box. Though its obviously anti horde. Anything else will require more effort. 

[Yossarion]

There is no cash grab. WYSIWYG is not official and only enforced by tournaments. Otherwise they are your models do what you want, if that involves spending more money to equip an entire squad of havocs with Chaincannons or buying thunder hammers for Chosen that's on you, not really GW's problem since they haven't enforced WYSIWYG for a while.

[HighMarshalAmp]

@Dragonlover - nice to see the mods this side of the forum take their work that seriously. I'll watch my step from now on and lay off the sarcasm. Sorry about any feathers I might have ruffled.

Now with critique against GW, I don't exactly know if I've crossed a line. Shouldn't think so, but still...

Nevertheless, I'm going to answer Yossarion and outline my thoughts about WYSIWYG and the effects of the unequal distribution of certain weapon choices across some of the new boxes might have on the number of boxes of a certain kit some people might want to own.

I won't address my own preferences in kitting out any models and I won't address my own wishes concerning the contents of any given sprue.

If you think going down that route qualifies as a moan-fest and anything contradicting Yossarion's assumption like that should be deleted, I'd ask you to at least PM me after deleting my post and/ or shutting down my thread. I can't learn from any mistakes if nobody explains to me where I went wrong after all.

 

There is no cash grab. WYSIWYG is not official and only enforced by tournaments. Otherwise they are your models do what you want, if that involves spending more money to equip an entire squad of havocs with Chaincannons or buying thunder hammers for Chosen that's on you, not really GW's problem since they haven't enforced WYSIWYG for a while.

What a lot of people want (at least on B&C subfora I more frequently vistit and at my FLGS) is to have their models represent the rules they're playing by.

Which means that there's demand for certain parts according to currently popular rulesets and those parts can either be on a sprue or they can't.

 

Now if you look at the Terminator box, there's one piece of Plasma, which is among the more popular weapons chices at the time of release as it has been for quite some time. So people want Plasma.

But instead if having one piece of Plasma, one of Melta and a Flamer, there's two of each of the latter two. You need 5 combo-options, one might say. Sure, but there's tons of options in the box you can't all use at the same time. A second Plasma bit on the sprue would be something I'm sure a lot of players would appreciate since the alternatives are buying third party bitz, buying GW bitz from online retailers, confusingly proxying well known other weapon designs like Melta muzzles as Plasma weaponry or simply not using as much Plasma as many guys like right now.

 

It's similar with Havocs - a new gun makes it's arrival on the dusty old stage of CSM where largely the same weaponry has been paraded up and down for nigh on two decades.

People who enjoy building and kitting out miniatures for whatever reason will probably want to get that.

There's one Reaper Chain Cannon in a Havoc box.

But there's two of every other weapons choice.

 

So where there's demand right now, there's less supply per box.

 

In conclusion, I'm surprised that you think WYSIWYG tournament rules are the only reason why people might want certain bits on their models.

It is indeed not GW's problem but in their best interest if people spend more money to get more parts for whatever reasons.

If you're content with what comes in one box and just field what you get in it regardless of the rules, then good for you! (I actually mean that.) But I think you're part of a minority there and I don't think GW, making their living by selling miniature kits, will have missed that, assuming it was the case - whatever they might have made of it aside.

[MegaVolt87]

You can make a legal unit for what is in the terminator box, its just up-gunned from the base datasheet. GW is inconsistent with box contents/ value. At a minimum it should have contained four extra chain axes to match the base datasheet. Extras are extras, bigger issue is not getting enough parts to make the base unit. GW is GW, you always have to pay the piper for that min/max, its never going to change, no matter what that PR/ influencers tell us. 

[Midnight Brotherhood]

I think GW actually assume that many of us have a bitz box to accomodate wanting extras to be honest, and I've gotta be honest most chaos players here do have a big bunch of bits. It's the newer players that may struggle. So far the community has been actually quite genius in making extra rotor cannons either through shadowspear or through things like taurox gatling guns or the FW rotor cannons. I've even heard people using Tau burst cannons! As long as it looks distinct enough to represent what it is then I think it's fine to kitbash a rotor cannon, id even consider ork bitz to be honest! it doesn't have to be an exact replica of the box version.

 

For myself I sit in the camp of I like to play WYSIWIG because I like my models to represent what they have, and I'm a casual player with 3 other friends and don't do tournaments or cut-throat meta play. We're just a bunch of guys playing our favourite stuff while still building and using our units for clear roles. 

 

I do agree though that this one in the box tactic by GW does deserve negative feedback to them because as you say, it's obvious. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, what I would say is we should spell it out and make it clear to them via the big community survey coming up. What's done is done now for these kits but GW have demonstrated that they listen to feedback.

[techsoldaten]

All of my Terminators are magnetized and I love the new models. The thought there won't be enough chainaxes / combi-plasma to go around pains me.

 

Breaking out a cask of Ye Olde 2-Part Resin once the new ones arrive.

[Wayniac]

I think GW actually assume that many of us have a bitz box to accomodate wanting extras to be honest, and I've gotta be honest most chaos players here do have a big bunch of bits. It's the newer players that may struggle. So far the community has been actually quite genius in making extra rotor cannons either through shadowspear or through things like taurox gatling guns or the FW rotor cannons. I've even heard people using Tau burst cannons! As long as it looks distinct enough to represent what it is then I think it's fine to kitbash a rotor cannon, id even consider ork bitz to be honest! it doesn't have to be an exact replica of the box version.

On this note, I honestly think their idea is that you're doing like they probably do and are building for variety, not optimally.  It seems like they expect you to build squads with mixed loadouts because they look better.

 

Honestly at this point, if that's the case, I wouldn't mind them limiting options to what's in the kit e.g. if the kit has a power axe, power sword, and power maul, the options become "One model may take a power axe.  One other model may take a power sword.  One other model may take a power maul" or if it's intended for the champion, then it's limited to the champion taking one of those three options, and that's that.  It would also help to reel in the competitive min/maxing builds you see where people hunt for combi-plasma on 3rd party sites or eBay to give it to an entire squad.  And, as a bonus to GW only because you know they wouldn't mind, it would devastate the market for those bits on 3rd party sites.

 

We would ultimately hate it, but with the way they are going, they might as well bite the bullet and do it.  It would make the game easier to balance too because there are set options and hard limits on them, so you wouldn't have people taking all combi-plasma and making a squad deadlier than it might be intended.  AOS does this with their kits; you get the options in the kit and the sheet restricts how many of them you can give, so you can never give an entire squad an item unless the kit comes with enough of those options.

[Sception]

The decision making going into the available weapons in the havoc and terminator boxes is super frustrating.  deliberate or not, the options likely to be the most popular in the current rules are the least available in the boxes Only one rotor cannon, only one combi plasma, only one chain axe).  Third party bits sellers will potentially make up for it somewhat, but we shouldn't have to rely on that.

 

As for combi weapons on unit champtions... currently they're still legal, BUT there hasn't been a model for it in... ever.  The current codex should stick around for at least a year or two, but will eventually get replaced, and I'd put the odds of us keeping combi weapon champions at that point at around 50%.  Unless of course we see a chosen box with combi weapons at that time, that would make it much more likely for regular champions to keep them.

 

 

In the mean time, it's not as good as having the options supported in the box, and it's not a justification or defense of GW for failing to do so, but there are a number of third party outfits that provide suitable combi weapons, chain axes, and even gattling cannons.  Try searching around on shapeways.  I'm sure combi halves that fit the new terminator kit will be available from someone or other on there within the next month or so as well.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah combi weapons on unit champions is something I'm struggling with a bit. Does anyone know of some good combi-bolters that fit for chaos to use on unit champions? I have some of the forge world combi weapons which work well enough for combi-plasma, but I don't know what to do for a combi-bolter. 

 

Idk if combi-weapons are going to go that quick, there's no real reason to take them away unless chaos gets another update in the next year or two. I mean we did just gain thunder hammers and we have no actual models with thunder hammers besides the blackstone fortress guy. That being said it certainly is GW's trend to take away weapon options there's no model for. 

[Dragonlover]

If you're using the newer kits, terminator combibolters go alright on the Marines without looking too oversized.

 

Dragonlover

[Midnight Brotherhood]

Maybe have a look at the combi bolters that come with Tartaros terminators, they might be scaled correctly. I've got some in my bitz box so I'll have a look tonight.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I generally either repurpose Imperial ones or I convert Terminator or pintle-mounted twin bolters into plasmas.

[Lord Asvaldir]

If you're using the newer kits, terminator combibolters go alright on the Marines without looking too oversized.

 

Dragonlover

 

Will have to try that out and see how they fit. 

 

Maybe have a look at the combi bolters that come with Tartaros terminators, they might be scaled correctly. I've got some in my bitz box so I'll have a look tonight.

 

Good idea, looking forward to seeing how that works out. I will see if cataphractii terminator combi weapons fit, though I'm not sure they will. 

[MaliGn]

Just to point out that combi-plasma has always been a desired weapon for terminator and yet the new kit has 100% more of them than the previous kit ever did.

 

Likewise the combi-Bolter for aspiring champions has long been a popular choice and the only plastic marine combi-weapon in the chaos range is on the backpack of the exalted (formerly aspiring) champion model from the dark vengeance era.

 

The more things change the more they stay the same.

[Exilyth]

For combi-plasma conversions:

 

Plasmapistols are an option from other kits which is not used very often.

 

So, take a storm bolter, carve the top of one half and carve a curve at the front of that half.

Take a plasmapistol and carve away the hand and carve a similar (but opposite) curve at the bottom.

Cut away the boltgun mag from that side (and maybe add some plastic rods/cylinders as reaction mass tanks).

Combine using adhesive of choice to get a bolter w/sideways mounted plasma.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I just lopped off the distinctive barrel of the plasma pistol, carved away one of the two bolter muzzles, applied a dab of glue and bam. Side-by-side combiplasma.

[MaliGn]

If you'vyou've got leftovers from your old obliterators there were a few plasma muzzled in there that you could add to a combibolter also assault cannon bits to use making chaincannons!

[Darnok]

Just to point out that combi-plasma has always been a desired weapon for terminator and yet the new kit has 100% more of them than the previous kit ever did.

100% of zero is still zero.

[MaliGn]

1 = 100% > 0

[Lord Asvaldir]

For those interested in combi-bolters for aspiring champions, I threw a cataphractii terminator armor combi-bolter on a champion, works pretty well. The rear end of the bolter is a little wide, and I had to cut off the hand as it's too big for the marines, but I just used a hand from one of the bolt pistol arms in the marine kit instead. Don't really see how you could make a champion holding a combi-bolter two handed, but it works one handed. Look of the combi-bolter fits pretty well with the other bolters as well. 

[HighMarshalAmp]

Another option would be to Mk III or IV marines and just use Heresy schemes and Loyalist weaponry.

It's not as affected by the warp as 'proper' Chaos models, but it might put an interesting spin on things. Of course, it'll prevent you from having a homogenous looking army if you ever stray from what can be easily proxied...

[Darnok]

1 = 100% > 0

That's not how percentages work. The point you wanted to make - one chainaxe in the new kit being more than zero chainaxes in the previous one - is still correct of course.

 

The old box with metal Terminators also came with only one chainaxe, and it was the default loadout even back then in 2nd edition. So the new kit goes "back to the roots" in some way...