Tamiel Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 In Vigilus Ablaze, there are four pages dedicated to the Black Legion, and most of the things in these pages (about 90% of them) are things that are unique on top of what Black Legion already gets in the Chaos Space Marines codex. These four pages have rules, stratagems, relics, and warlord traits that are entirely unique to Black Legion. In other words, Vigilus Ablaze holds within it a mini-codex for the Black Legion.Where things start to get interesting is when you realize that Black Legion is, in many ways, the chaos counterpart to Ultramarines in terms of some stratagems and rules. For example, the Ultramarines warlord trait (the one where on a 5+ you get a CP back) is also present as one of the warlord traits in the black legion mini-codex within Vigilus Ablaze. The Ultramarines stratagem that lets you reroll 1s to hit for a squad, and reroll all misses to hit if the squad is a tactical marine or intercessor squad, is also present for the Black Legion (in both the CSM codex and in Vigilus Ablaze), except it gives full rerolls to chaos space marines squads instead of tactical squads. Long story short, I think that Black Legion is similar to Ultramarines in the eyes of GW and the rules teams. They're completely different armies, but I think that this special treatment that Black Legion got in the Vigilus Ablaze book could very well be given to us in a future campaign book.In other words, I expect an Ultramarines mini-codex hidden away in a campaign book somewhere in the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Ultramarines already got a lot in in Vigilus Defiant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 That they did but I can see an Ultramarines "mini-dex" in the future. It's interesting for sure though far from guaranteed. How many Strategums, Warlord Traits and Relics did the BL one have? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted April 4, 2019 Author Share Posted April 4, 2019 How many Strategums, Warlord Traits and Relics did the BL one have? Stratagems: 7 (8 if you count the one they already had in the CSM codex) Warlord traits: 5 (6 if you count the one they already had in the CSM codex) Relics: 6 They also got 6 black legion tactical objectives for maelstrom missions. Imagine having 6 new relics, 5 new warlord traits, and 7 new stratagems, all unique Ultramarines. All we have right now is the Ultramarine specialist detachment (Victrix Guard) we got in Vigilus Defiant. Black Legion ALSO got a new Black Legion-only specialist detachment (Bringers of Despair), so we're even only on that front. EDIT: I just realized, the Bringers of Despair detachment (like other specialist detachments) comes with a unique warlord trait, a unique relic, and two unique stratagems. So if you want to include these, the total number of things Black Legion got in Vigilus Defiant is: Stratagems: 9 (10 if you count the one they already had in the CSM codex) Warlord traits: 6 (7 if you count the one they already had in the CSM codex) Relics: 7 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 That would make me a happy bunny. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I would prefer if Marines in general recieved something that helped out Chapters other than the big 11. I like forging my narrative and would love to more customize my Chapter to do it. Ither than the Primogenetors we have Black Templars and Crimson Fists. I want to be able to embrace at least something close to the lore I’ve developed for my Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted April 4, 2019 Author Share Posted April 4, 2019 In addition to all this, Chaos Space Marines in general got 5 new detachments (all with their unique stratagems, relics, and warlord traits), Fallen Dark Angels got one new detachment, and Khorne Daemons got one new detachment as well.Not to mention, one of the specialist detachments that CSM got is meant for Daemonkin (which came as a box counterpart to Vanguard Primaris). Imagine if Vanguard primaris got a specialist detachment too. So far, the only LSM general specialist detachment we have is Indomitus Crusaders, which focuses on intercessors and inceptors. I wouldn't be surprised if GW makes more detachments for other primaris units like aggressors, hellblasters, reivers, eliminators ect.My greatest wish, however, is an Oldmarine formation. We already got a few of those that were chapter specific, but it would be cool to see a "any chapter" formation that made use of the Tactical, Devastator, and Assault squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Tactical and Assault Marines need love in a detachment. I quite like the Red Corsairs Warlord Trait - imagine Tacticla Marines giving CPs like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 CSM got some major buffs for sure so you'll be seeing them again now . For example BL can now benefit form every Mark. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 I think Chaos got a lot of stuff rewritten in Vigilus Ablaze to a large degree because the chaos was already written for publishing. Ultramarines hopefully have Vigilus Defiant plus a new codex shortly. Whatever is being done for Chaos rules wise is probably done with for a long, long time. Marines will be just getting geared up by Vigilus. Plus almost any future campaign will have an aspect of Marines and Detachments in it.... so there’s always more to come. I imagine a Codex this summer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Jober Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 I think UM don't need a mini-codex, in fact, SM codex should be named "Adeptus Astartes: Ultramarines and sidekicks" Remember that Ultras have Guilliman, Marneus, Tigurius, Chronus, Telion, Cassius, Sicarius... Victrix Guard, Terminus Ultra... The best Chapter Tactics... And then, there are other "minor" chapters... with no Special Characters... But, don't get me wrong, I LOVE SPACE MARINES, so I will never complain if SM receives some love, but I think it is much better to increase the options for all the chapters, starting with less favoured ones (IH, WS, Salamanders...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcB Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Plus they also get access to all the original generic CSM ones in the original CSM Codex. So in total now a BL player will have access to Stratagems - 10 + all the generic ones (roughly 20-25 I would imagine) Warlord Traits - 6 + 6 generic from CSM Codex + 3 Rulebook Relics - 7 + 6 generic ones from CSM Codex Now that is some options I would love to see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 I don't think anyone here is saying there shouldn't be variant Chapters mini-dex, but as Ultramarines fans we would love the finished article. I think prot is likely right - a new Codex before any mini-dex. You never know of course. The next campaign book could very well be Dark Angels focused since we have a Fallen thing in the latest book... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5291415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 Ultramarines already got a lot in in Vigilus Defiant. They got nowhere near as much as BL. Ultras are neglected compared to some factions. Don't just compare them to some of the more niche chapters who get even less. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5292080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 I almost choked. Ultramarines and neglected. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5292081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 They get the most attention in codex space marines, but compared to the rules, releases and attention other factions get it's not much. Black Legion have received more unique kits and rules in the last 2 years, as an example, and they are a direct comparison. Let's not mention Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, etc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5292087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 They get the most attention in codex space marines, but compared to the rules, releases and attention other factions get it's not much. Black Legion have received more unique kits and rules in the last 2 years, as an example, and they are a direct comparison. Let's not mention Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, etc This is a case of "what have you done for me lately?" Ultras are not neglected. If Vigilus Ablaze means anything for the future of marines, it's more rules for forces outside of the boy scouts. And that would be fantastic. I grew to hate them the moment units were nerfed for everybody early in 8th because of their bloody Primarch lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5292337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted April 7, 2019 Author Share Posted April 7, 2019 Blood angels, dark angels, and space wolves have entire codices. Just for them. Black Legion just got 4 pages worth of warlord traits, relics, and stratagems. Just for them. Death Guard, Thousand Sons have entire codices. Just for them. Death Guard and Thousand Sons also have their own primarchs, and quite a few unique characters. Black Legion just got Abaddon and Haarken.Meanwhile, Ultramarines get a primarch, and some unique characters (like Cato, who never gets used because he's underwhelming on the tabletop).The only new things we got so far are Calgar (which we already had, but he gets +1 attack and +1 wound this time) and Guilliman (chaos already has two primarchs and Abaddon). Other than that, sure we got a detachment, but so did many other chapters in vigilus (if I recall correctly, Dark Angels got two special detachments). But we show up all the time in the lore and on box art for space marine units. So people think "Oh, Ultramarines must be getting new stuff" whenever a new primaris unit comes out or the lore focuses on us.Anyway, I'm not going to take part in this argument any further. I don't want this thread to get locked just because a few people want to take the discussion and steer it another way. If you don't want this thread to get locked, I encourage you to do the same and talk about the original topic instead of getting caught up in a fruitless debate. If you've got a chip on your shoulder about Ultramarines, then I ask you to take that somewhere else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5292380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknife Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Ultramarines already got a lot in in Vigilus Defiant.They got nowhere near as much as BL. Ultras are neglected compared to some factions. Don't just compare them to some of the more niche chapters who get even less. Yep I agree. Would love if the big 4 on both sides eventually get their own codex. Generic Codex SM could then expand on generic less known chapters and could feature a build your own chapter trait system similar to how knights have with their wandering knights. Or expand them like the legions dexes work. Either way I'm all for ultras and others getting expanded upon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5292434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 They didn't get as much as some others, but they definitely aren't neglected. They are in a good middle ground of getting more stuff than others (which are truly neglected) but also aren't the focus of the new releases currently. However Ishagu always speaks in extremes, hence my reaction. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5292438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Bringing things back towards the topic at hand... It would be nice if Ultramarines and Space Marines in general take some things from this latest spate of releases. 8 extra Strategums themed to a Chapter are ideal to add character and put some emphasis on certain units. Prayers for Chaplains would be nice. An extra one per Chapter too (what will we get?). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5292447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Ultras get far less than 8 other chapters/Legions yet are supposed to be one of the big ones? That looks like neglect. The very bare minimum of support considering their position in the setting. To say they are spoilt is nothing but ignorance and some strange, unjustified jealousy. I'll always point this out strongly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5292451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Bringing things back towards the topic at hand... Ahem ^ =][= Let's not make it about whether a faction deserves something. In this sub-forum it's a given Ultramarines fans might want a release specific to them. Let's also not argue about the subject any further. People don't gain anything by having the last word or continuing to take things off subject. Let's just enjoy the discussion. =][= Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355068-what-vigilus-ablaze-could-mean-for-our-future-rules/#findComment-5292472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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