Kaldoth Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 So, I was thumbing through the new codex and such, and it seems to me that at least for friendly to semi-competitive play, Chaos might actually be able to use regular old 10 man tac squads if utilizing a noctilith crown as a core for a gun line. I always see people filling in BN slots with cultists and using literally every other shooting option in the dex (oblits, havocs, preds, etc) if they want to do a gun line. If you see CSMs, they're usually MSU squads for cheap objective sitters that don't do anything all game other than getting shot off the board. But maybe with crown on the field, going 10-20 man might actually be viable? This is all theory of course, as I've only played a handful of games this edition between school and prepping for some time in the sand box, but hear me out on my train of thought. So, first up, Bolter Discipline beta rule. It seems to me that the new beta rule has gotten mostly positive feedback. Obviously, filthy loyalists and us more enlightened players aren't going to complain about two shots coming out of your standard marine at 24". Most other players that run actual shooting armies (Tau, IG, etc) at my FLGS don't mind playing against the beta rule because even with it, bolter marines don't out shoot other true gun line armies. The swarm players also don't seem to mind, as they usually only have to deal with one, maybe two turns tops, of shooting before they're making their charge rolls. So if I had to venture a guess, the beta rule isn't going to be a beta rule much longer. That is of course based off of my experience alone, but after skimming through whatever feedback threads about the beta rule I could find on here, it seems like its a shared consensus. Second, the Noctilith Crown. If you ask me, these things are dirt cheap for what you get. Great buffs for friendly psykers, 1/6 chance for causing a perils of the warp attack on enemy psykers, some cheeky S7AP2 pistol shots for anyone who gets too close, and most importantly, an incrementing invul bubble. Combine that with the AL trait/cover strat/ etc, and turns 1-2 your regular CSMs are sitting on terminator save stats. Third and finally, the ridiculous amount of bubble-buff units we have access to. I don't think I need to hammer into the benefits of a cheap buff lord or a prescience sorcerer. So, if kept as cheap as possible, I think it might be worth the points investment. With no unit upgrades/buffing HQ choices at all, you're looking at 40 3+ shots per turn and 2+/5+ armor saves if in cover/cover strat/AL trait for 360 points. Give them MoS and you've got 60 shots if you're in a pinch against a horde army. With a few cheap screening units like cultists or bare bones helbrutes to tie up the deep strikers/chargers on turn 2, a CSM gun line might be a bit of a tick to dig out. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 That's exactly what I'm going to do, with a Devastation Battery to boot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 That's exactly what I'm going to do, with a Devastation Battery to boot. That's exactly what I was going to do. More specifically I was going to park rhino's with invulns near the crown, and fill them with the shorter ranged Chainguns. The 'ledge' on the crown might be good enough to put on lascannon team if I'm lucky (it's hard to tell I don't have everything built yet.) Yesterday I finished building the crown and now I think for Thousand Sons it might work very well for them. For Black Legion I wanted to park 2 Landraiders in front with assaulty units but the Devastation Battery is just so good for a minor investment. I plan on deploying the Crown very high and hopefully near terrain. I'd love to launch psychic attacks from it (especially Thousand Sons) and launch Daemon Princes, etc for a push back. As a side note the model is awesome. I love it. I think it will be easy to paint and the dimensions are good enough to fit a considerable amount of stuff in the 5++ field. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallarn Commander Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 While I tend focus on assault and my Chaos gunline is usually small, I've still found that squads of 10 CSM with 2 lascannons are decent backfield objective campers. I use 1 to 2 such squads if I have the points. They are far more durable than squads of 5 CSM with lascannons and, as you note, now they can benefit from the Noctilith. Plus, now that Havocs are capped at a squad size of 5 means Havocs are far more brittle than 10 trooper CSM squads (the T5 doesn't impress me). This gives one even more reason to try out 10 trooper squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaldoth Posted April 5, 2019 Author Share Posted April 5, 2019 While I tend focus on assault and my Chaos gunline is usually small, I've still found that squads of 10 CSM with 2 lascannons are decent backfield objective campers. I use 1 to 2 such squads if I have the points. They are far more durable than squads of 5 CSM with lascannons and, as you note, now they can benefit from the Noctilith. Plus, now that Havocs are capped at a squad size of 5 means Havocs are far more brittle than 10 trooper CSM squads (the T5 doesn't impress me). This gives one even more reason to try out 10 trooper squads. Well, the issue I see with investing points into ten man squads is to maximize the increased survivability from the noctilith, you are still going to want to keep them slightly forward. While being able to rapid fire at 24" is great, it is still only 24". I don't know how far back you're talking when it comes to back field, but if I'm going to actually spend the points on ten man squads, I'd personally prefer to have them forward so I can get them pumping out shots (hopefully) turn one. And as far as only being able to take 5 havocs, yeah its definitely a down side, but havocs in cover with a noctilith crown are pretty hefty now that they're T5 :D Harder to wound than terminators, but they die quicker because of only 1 wound base. But at 26 pts vs 14 pts a pop, I'd say that's a damn good trade off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Lord Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 I actually like the crown, my only issue is dedicating an entire detachment to one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 I actually like the crown, my only issue is dedicating an entire detachment to one. I think the better option for GW would be to put a fortification slot in Battalion and Brigade Detachments but that's pie in the sky at the moment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighMarshalAmp Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 I'm quite tempted to put my 1k Sons 24" threat Rubric bubble in front of one as well... Egyptian dudes in front of a ring with symbols on it, y'know... does anyone even remember Stargate these days? Also, I'm completely on board the hype train for the buffs it can give to gunlines - and Rubrics with AP -2 are made for that (if nothing else ;) )... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtle Discord Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 I've got a Void Shield Generator in my AdMech list and it's 190 points for the 6" 5++, and nothing else. It used to specifically have a 'battlement' on top so it had the advantage of offering a perch for a squad that provides a good point of view of the battlefield, but now that distinction has been removed in 8th edition; it's still modelled that way, so that's a good thing, but the point is that there doesn't seem to be anything to stop someone from adding a deck or platform to a fortification. I'm compelled to add a plasma globe to mine, so I think I'll have no choice but to make the base a bit larger and/or enclose it a bit, so a larger platform might be 'required'. I'm not modelling for an advantage, I swear, it just so happens that it turns out that way, but look!... *turns on the plasma globe* ... mmmm... plasma. At 100 points for all of the added utility on top of what a Void Shield Generator offers, while it has fewer wounds, it really seems to be a solid choice to add to the center of a castle. I generally work to build a single Brigade or a double Battalion lists, so personally, I'm not concerned with it consuming a Detachment slot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraken Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 The 'ledge' on the crown might be good enough to put on lascannon team if I'm lucky (it's hard to tell I don't have everything built yet.) It's pretty big: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtle Discord Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Wow, I was a bit worried it was going to be on the small side, but it looks huge. *rubs his hands together* Excellent! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaldoth Posted April 5, 2019 Author Share Posted April 5, 2019 Wow that thing is massive! I'm definitely getting one regardless of whether or not I use it, just for sheer cool points. My only worry about it now is keeping it alive. Literally the whole board will be able to shoot at it. 14 wounds isn't a lot 3+/5+ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Lord Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Good points about the value vs detachment slot. The thing is also massive, useful, and detrimental to your enemy. At that point cost I'd practically beg them to try to kill it. Since the theme of my slowly forming army seems to be threat saturation, it's just another target to mess with opponents at the very least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Wow that thing is massive! I'm definitely getting one regardless of whether or not I use it, just for sheer cool points. My only worry about it now is keeping it alive. Literally the whole board will be able to shoot at it. 14 wounds isn't a lot 3+/5+ If they're shooting anti-tank guns at it, they're not shooting anti-tank guns at your tanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtle Discord Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Yup, if shots are being lost because they're hitting the 5++ while attempting to target units, or because they're trying to kill the Crown (and still dealing with the 5++), they're still being lost and not hitting other targets. It's a bit of a trap unless you can knock it down really fast because killing it just means the units it was protecting still need to be dealt with. Forcing your opponent to make a hard call, it's a good thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighMarshalAmp Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Well yeah, it's a Distraction Carnifex that actually provides aura support. I really like that. As for the Detachment, you're either taking it in 1000pt games as the centerpiece of both your side of the table and your tactics and that's worth the Detachment OR you're at 2000pts anyway. And were you seriously gonna take 3 Battalions? Also, it finally makes the second part if the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics (Re-rolling failed wound rolls against buildings) worth a damn, so prepare to have your IF opponents like you quite a lot - after all, when was the last time anyone has seen a Fortification in a list? Make a C:SM player smile today. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Lord Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 I was actually thinking of taking a battalion, spearhead, and supreme command of demons at 2000 for heralds. Maybe it's better if I compress that a bit, there's really only one specialist detachment that I'm extremely...attached to :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Keep in mind that the 5++ only matters for your marines if they are getting shot by ap-3 or greater. So that's like overcharged plasma and lascannons. Now plasma is a nasty marine killer of course, but the big problem with regular marines right now is that they are inefficient vs small arms fire, not that they are vs plasma. And the Crown isn't helping against that at all. In other words, a gunline of regular CSM with a 5++ is still gonna get gunned down by guardsmen or firewarriors or a host of other weapons anyway. And the main reason that CSM aren't that great shooting stuff is that even with the Beta Bolter rule, they just don't have much offensive firepower. Bolters are not good. The Crown is a much bigger advantage to Havocs of course, because they are more likely to be targets of big guns. But I think the big winner in terms of getting that 5++ is actually Helbrutes, Predators, and Rhinos that need to survive turn 1. They are likely to get shot by Ap-3 or -4, and they don't mind sitting there in the aura. The other winner is cultists camping on objectives, and of course spammed sorcerers to get the re-roll. Even GW was pointing out that it was great for Magnus to get his super smite off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5291842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 What's the height and width of the crown, krakjen? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5292088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Keep in mind that the 5++ only matters for your marines if they are getting shot by ap-3 or greater. So that's like overcharged plasma and lascannons. Now plasma is a nasty marine killer of course, but the big problem with regular marines right now is that they are inefficient vs small arms fire, not that they are vs plasma. And the Crown isn't helping against that at all. In other words, a gunline of regular CSM with a 5++ is still gonna get gunned down by guardsmen or firewarriors or a host of other weapons anyway. And the main reason that CSM aren't that great shooting stuff is that even with the Beta Bolter rule, they just don't have much offensive firepower. Bolters are not good. The Crown is a much bigger advantage to Havocs of course, because they are more likely to be targets of big guns. But I think the big winner in terms of getting that 5++ is actually Helbrutes, Predators, and Rhinos that need to survive turn 1. They are likely to get shot by Ap-3 or -4, and they don't mind sitting there in the aura. The other winner is cultists camping on objectives, and of course spammed sorcerers to get the re-roll. Even GW was pointing out that it was great for Magnus to get his super smite off. Yeah. GW should have called it the Killshot Insurance Crown. LOL. "Actually have a chance of not losing a Predator on Turn One! Order now!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5292623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraken Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 What's the height and width of the crown, krakjen? Sorry, I didn't take that picture. It was from reddit. I don't have mine yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5292704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Bumping this up because I just realized that the Crown can give 5++ to renegade russes or even baneblades (although they'd be hard to fit wholly within). You could do a Crown + Renegades battalion + CSM battalion and do some nice Iron Warriors or something. Normally Renegade Russes aren't worth it because they can't get the traits and buffs that Guard can. But 5++ gives them a solid edge on durability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5293271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Drudge has a really good point. The Crown works for Renegades and Heretics too. My IW Basilisks are going to like this I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5293313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Drudge has a really good point. The Crown works for Renegades and Heretics too. My IW Basilisks are going to like this I think. Given the size, you might be able to give indirect fire units full concealment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5293319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 I just saw that apparently Noctillith Crown has the vehicle keyword in addition to building- so I can fix this thing with a Warpsmith/ Hellwright? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355092-noctilith-gun-line/#findComment-5293327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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