Teleport, Shoot, Die - Deathwing in 8th Edition

[Orkinstein]

Since 1st company all wear TDA. So reflect to table top they should have the same points as other chapters's veterans. 14 points, yes, yes.

[FarFromSam]

Man, I really, really, REALLY hope the new primaris termies look like current TDA armour scaled up. That way we can go about ignoring the recent cawl fluff, and have new models to buy, build, paint. I love the new intercessors, hell blasters, and character models, and if GW could do a similar upscaling with Termies, maybe those golly geeugly jump things and aggressors will fade into silly obscurity.

 

Rules wise, leave cp for BRB strats. The game was easy to follow when we had 3 strats everyone knew, had access to, and could remember. Idk how often I've had to awkwardly interrogate my opponent with "soooo who can I not deep strike near?"

"Does some here cause mortal wounds?"

"Why are so many units circling that guy?" And then him to cringe and have a got cha moment when he remembers a stratagem he thought I knew etc.

 

If DW had synergy, or if they were 3 wounds. Or simply gave em a custodes stat line and price and I'd be happy.

[Berzul]

We do seem to have an overabundance of Stratagems.... Take the BRB ones, the Codex ones, and if you are playing a scenario from a special book like Vigilus, those ones, plus those of an existing battlezone, and just the list from Urban Conquest is just crazy. Its often times too much

[DadJokes]

Despite being my only painted unit, I'm seriously considering cutting the Deathwing from my core list. Even maximized with a librarian and ancient they just don't take he kind of damage they're meant to, and fold to small arms.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Unfortunately it's been that way for decades.

[Berzul]

Despite being my only painted unit, I'm seriously considering cutting the Deathwing from my core list. Even maximized with a librarian and ancient they just don't take he kind of damage they're meant to, and fold to small arms.

Welcome to the fault in our codex, Brother.

 

We can only hope that will one day change.

[BlackTriton]

In my experience, post CA, the DW units are not that bad at all.

 

They are on the expensive side of viable but any characters added on top pushes them over the edge and into trash tier.

 

I came to the conclusion they are better taken without dedicated character support, leaving you at the mercy of the dice but with a better list overall.

[Berzul]

They are useful as a 165 point unit to drop on turn three for linebreaker

[Hantheman]

They are useful as a 165 point unit to drop on turn three for linebreaker

 

Yeah I think DW Knights have a fun role there. If left to their own devices they will be an absolute pain.

[G8Keeper]

In my experience, post CA, the DW units are not that bad at all.

 

They are on the expensive side of viable but any characters added on top pushes them over the edge and into trash tier.

 

I came to the conclusion they are better taken without dedicated character support, leaving you at the mercy of the dice but with a better list overall.

 

I often think this.  It's why I toy with using Asmodai as he gives the benefits of both Belial and an Ancient. I then realise I need a transport as he can't teleport in with them :(

[Angel of Solitude]

Yeah, I've taken to running an Interrogator Chaplain with jump pack with my DWK to give not just re-rolls to hit, but also the warlord trait that allows charge re-rolls. Still not reliable enough though.

 

With beta bolter rules, it might be worth giving a LR Crusader a go again. If you don't go below half damage, then you have a 12" move + 3" deploy + 5" move + (say) 8" charge = 28" charge range, with supporting firepower too. The thing that frustrates me with DWK teleporting in is that if they fail the charge, then they need something else to protect them while you wait for the next turn.

[Berzul]

Yeah, I've taken to running an Interrogator Chaplain with jump pack with my DWK to give not just re-rolls to hit, but also the warlord trait that allows charge re-rolls. Still not reliable enough though.

 

With beta bolter rules, it might be worth giving a LR Crusader a go again. If you don't go below half damage, then you have a 12" move + 3" deploy + 5" move + (say) 8" charge = 28" charge range, with supporting firepower too. The thing that frustrates me with DWK teleporting in is that if they fail the charge, then they need something else to protect them while you wait for the next turn.

They could lock their shields and make a fortress--, oh, wait :/

[Hantheman]

That strat should be -1 to wound an entire round, even -1 hit on top. It's so specific

[Berzul]

I insist that the stratagem should be 1cp, be activated as a reaction to being targeted by any ranged or melee attack, and last the the entire phase.

[G8Keeper]

I also think the Watcher in the Dark should give just a straight deny attempt, not be limited and be 10pts.

[Angel of Solitude]

Yeah. It bugs me that I have to activate the stratagem at the start of the fight phase - if I wipe out the unit I'm attacking (which I should be), then I won't have a need for it. But if it doesn't quite work that way, then I should have the flexibility to activate it.

 

Also, having it apply to shooting attacks would make a 10-man DWA squad more survivable.

[Berzul]

I also think the Watcher in the Dark should give just a straight deny attempt, not be limited and be 10pts.

 

May I add that to my list of suggested fixes for the DW?

[Knight Angels]

Termis should be T5 for no or minimal points increase.

[G8Keeper]

 

I also think the Watcher in the Dark should give just a straight deny attempt, not be limited and be 10pts.

 

May I add that to my list of suggested fixes for the DW?

 

 

Go for it!

[Berzul]

Thanks.

 

Done, and done.

The updated rules change suggestion can be found here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355163-improving-the-deathwing-in-the-dark-angels-codex/?do=findComment&comment=5298406

11 changes now, in total. Some for all terminators in the Imperium, but most of the specifically for the Deathwing.

 

Can you guys give me your feedback to the suggested changes. please? I am really curious.

[BlackTriton]

Berzul, on 17 Apr 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

Thanks.

 

 

 

Done, and done.

 

The updated rules change suggestion can be found here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355163-improving-the-deathwing-in-the-dark-angels-codex/?do=findComment&comment=5298406

 

11 changes now, in total. Some for all terminators in the Imperium, but most of the specifically for the Deathwing.

 

 

 

Can you guys give me your feedback to the suggested changes. please? I am really curious.

 

 

 

here you go

 

 

 

1-Ignore AP is a very unique effect and should not be generalise.

 

2-Toughness 5 as merit even more so with the new Havoc being T5

 

3-Loadout change are mostly irrelevant to the discussion, they are locked with the kit.

 

4-Fortress of shield should be changed; it really feels like it was written at a time when the designer’s did not understand how stratagem works yet.

 

5-6-7-Any new stratagem will come with specialist formation and that is very fine with me.

 

8-All terminator characters should have a point reduction, non-HQ character should be HQ’s, especial the DW champion because he is so unique.

 

9- Terminator lieutenant would be a niche addition and does not help terminator in the slightest.

 

11- Allowing watcher in the dark to participate more in the game would be great in giving DW more personality and uses.

 

 

 

 

 

The best and easiest fix would be to give terminator 3W a model. 2W often is the same as 1W. against D3 weapon is means sometime you survive instead of sometime you die.

 

at 3W, only the best weapon are automatically lethal, 2W weapon still kill you faster, there is more room to fail armor saves and thus having a good armor save becomes relevant.

 

 

 

The game as a weird bias agains 2W models. its far from being as good as 2 models, while being very easy to invalidate. but 3W at T4 have more interaction with all kind of weapon, kinda easy to wound, but good armor and multiple model gives them actual staying power.

[Berzul]

Good points. I'll try to address them one by one:

 

1) On the subject of AP, if the point is that Terminator Armor is sturdier than the rules currently reflect, then the upgrade to their resistance and durability should apply to all suits of Terminator Armor. The Deathwing has specialists, but those specialists still wear the same type of armor as other terminators in other chapters.

 

2) On the subject of T5, yeah, definetly.

 

3) On the subject of the weapon loadouts, the kits actually allow this build in the DW box, so, there would be no issue in allowing it in the rules.

 

4) On the subject of Fortress of Shileds, yeah, something is amiss on how they put that together.

 

5) On the subject of new stratagems, yeah, they may very well come with new detachments or formations. But, the point is if these stratagem changes would actually work in "fixing" the failings of the Deathwing or not.

 

6) On the subject of HQs and Characters, I agree they could all do with a reduction in cost. But, making the command squad HQ choices? I don't think any chapter has their Command Squad members as other than Elite choices. I don't know if this change would make sense, in the organization of the army. Each Chapter has the old Command Squad split into 2 Lieutenants as HQ Choices and the team of three (Ancient, Champion, Apothecary) as individual Elite choices. I see the DW Command Squad guys as just the way to keep the Command Squad in line with the particular army composition and organization of the Dark Angels.

 

7) On the subject of the Lieutenant for the Deathwing, any unit is benefited by having rerrolls to wound. Makes sense lore wise to have Lieutenants in the 1st Company, that follow in line with wearing TDA as the rest of the company. It would give us a cheaper HQ choice that can keep the "everyone in TDA" theme. And, if he aided in advance and charge rolls as a secondary aura ability (equivalent to the ignore cover aura ability of the Talon Master, which is the 2-man vehicle that fills in the 2 lieutenant positions in the 2nd Company), it would go a long way in solving the charge distance issue that the Deathwing have. Even if the DW Lieutenant improved charge and advance rolls in 1 inch, it would still help.

 

8) On the subject of the Watcher in the Dark, yes. I agree. I think G8Keeper had a great idea there.

 

9) On the subject of the wounds per model, I do not think they would give us the same number of wounds that Grey Knight Paladins and Custodes Terminators get, as the game clearly looks to put a hierarchical difference between those units and the rest of the terminators. It would be great to have that extra wound, though. It is true that 2Ws is a weird position to be in, and the game is kind of stacked against 2W models.

[BlackTriton]

I inderstand the reservation to puting the old command squad members into individual HQ slots for lore reasons, but that is the only way for them to ever see the table competitively, hense the suggestion.

Plus space marines do need more cheap HQ options.

 

If terminator were to jump to 3W across the board, I would assume similar units already at 3W will be revisited and changed if need be.

The fact something else exist in that space dosent invalidate the concept, and an easy awnser is preferable. Since most seems to agree that terminator need a defensive upgrade, +1 W is the easiest way to get a usefull resilent model.

[DadJokes]

Might be playing a 1250 point Highlander tournament on Saturday, and I'm looking at a five man squad with an Assault Cannon.

 

This would be running along Azrael and 10 Hellblasters.

 

They would just be there to shoot and die, and I like their output more for than the same points in bolter-Inceptors. For late game chat clearing and objective securing, they might actually be worth it.

[Interrogator Stobz]

The Emperor's finest reduced to chaff clearers. Suboptimal outcome.