As nice as the new Chaos Marine kits look...

[Slave to Darkness]

The new kits look great but they are terrible from a "freedom to do what you want"-PoV.

 

The Havoc's are limited on what heavy weapons you can equip them with.

Want to build a Chaincannon, a Heavy Bolter and 2 Autocannons? Too bad.

 

The Terminators are limited in general, lacking even their basic default-weaponry.

How many chainaxes do you get in the kit? 1-2?

 

The CSM too are lacking a lot of options that should be included in the kit.

Several heavy weapons aren't included, and not a single combi-weapon for the champion is included.

Heck, it doesn't even include enough bolt pistols and chainswords to make a full unit of bp+ccw CSM!

How much would that cost though to produce kits that have EVERYTHING?

 

 

Havoc Squad with x4 Chaincannons, x4 Heavy Bolters, x4 Auto Cannons, x4 Las Cannons and x4 Missile Launchers, not including all weapon options for the Champ. 

Chaos Marine Squad with x10 Boltguns, x10 pistol and sword combos, 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma, 1 Melta, 1 Chain Cannon, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Auto Cannon, 1 Las Cannon and 1 Missile Launcher, not including all weapon options for the Champ. 

Ill not bother listing everything the Terminators need to run complete builds out of the box.

 

Games Workshop have never given us complete kits with all the options before (unless some xenos kits do, I dont care much for the box contents of other factions tbh) so why people expect them to do so now is slightly amusing. Hell even back in 1st ed if you wanted a heavy bolter marine/ sgt with powersword etc  you had to go out and buy one in a blister pack, 2nd ed if you wanted any special/heavy weapon that wasnt flamer/missile launcher you had to go out and..... buy additional blisters... 3rd ed comes along and... whaddaya know, cant build the squad out of the options you got in box...

 

Its a luxury hobby and GW is not your friend, they are a business and the business is taking your wages.

 

 

Dont get me wrong, I do agree and sympathise with the issues people have mentioned here, but complaining here wont solve anything, email GW, wait till the survey is live and get everybody you know to voice their displeasure, stop throwing money at them. GW will listen if sales drop.. 

[Darnok]

Aww damn, I do not like what I read. I appreciate the details of the new models, I really do - but at heart I have been a converter from way back when I started in the 90s. So I am quite disappointed with the new kits in that regard.

 

However...

 

With the Shadowspear ones and a single box of CSM you get 20 completely individual sculpts. With minor conversions you get ten more out of a second box. You are now sitting on 30 CSM of which only ten share some elements with others. How much more do you really want?

 

This is not saying I agree with GWs decision to do this kit as they did it. I just want to point out that for a reasonable amount of basic CSM you have enough individuality to work with.

[Midnight Brotherhood]

The new CSM and Havocs have just come for me today so I'll reserve judgement until I get my hands on the sprues in the coming days. I'm feeling positive though, I really like the poses that were shown off and if there is a little bit of modularity and customisation I think that will be enough to keep my happy. The recent community article on conversions seemed to show some good kit bashing that could be done.

 

The comment about the Havocs is alarming though, I want to build 2 autocannons and 2 lascannons so I hope the arms in the kit can support that.

[Minsc]

 

Dont get me wrong, I do agree and sympathise with the issues people have mentioned here, but complaining here wont solve anything, email GW, wait till the survey is live and get everybody you know to voice their displeasure, stop throwing money at them. GW will listen if sales drop.. 

 

No, GW never used to include *everything*, but they sure used to include more than they do now, especially if we take the new "incompatibility" into account.

I'm not going to buy a single of the new kits however - mostly because I don't need to.

 

I do hope that doesn't disqualify me from voicing my opinion on the new kits however.

Again, I think they look great (they really do), but as a modeler, I consider them a step in the wrong direction.

 

[DuskRaider]

Uh... the new kit includes just as many options as the last one sans the god specific Icons and heads. Not only that but they look better too. The old ones were static and stiff, the only real advantage was the ability to use FW kits with with (and mainly just the torsos at that).

[Panzer]

Honestly options-wise it's only really the Terminator kit and the Chaincannon in the Havoc kit that stands out as negative.

[Halandaar]

The cool looking bolter with the belt that wraps around to an ammo box on the back of the waist? Good luck putting that bolter on any other model than the one pictured without having to break out the green stuff. 

 

I managed to use it on a different body without issue when building my second squad (I built the first one pretty much as guided by the booklet).

 

The Havoc's are limited on what heavy weapons you can equip them with.

Want to build a Chaincannon, a Heavy Bolter and 2 Autocannons? Too bad.

 

Untrue. There are enough parts on the Havoc kit for you to build any combination of 4 Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and Chaincannon. (Obviously, restricted by the number of those weapons actually on the sprues). You can also build a 2 Las/2ML squad without any conversion, despite what the booklet says.

 

Funny that people whine about the loss of creativity in the kits but assume that because the instructions only say the kit can be used a few ways, it must be true.

[Dragonlover]

 

 You can also build a 2 Las/2ML squad without any conversion, despite what the booklet says.

 

 

Can you? I was going purely off the booklet and figured it was a wash since the lascannon and missile launcher backpacks share the connector bit. Or is it a case of there being 4 of that bit on the sprues and I'm just blind?

 

Dragonlover

[Midnight Brotherhood]

The new transfer sheet is a VERY welcome addition! The range of Night Lords transfers I can use now is fantastic!

 

 

The cool looking bolter with the belt that wraps around to an ammo box on the back of the waist? Good luck putting that bolter on any other model than the one pictured without having to break out the green stuff. 

 

I managed to use it on a different body without issue when building my second squad (I built the first one pretty much as guided by the booklet).

 

The Havoc's are limited on what heavy weapons you can equip them with.
Want to build a Chaincannon, a Heavy Bolter and 2 Autocannons? Too bad.

 

Untrue. There are enough parts on the Havoc kit for you to build any combination of 4 Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and Chaincannon. (Obviously, restricted by the number of those weapons actually on the sprues). You can also build a 2 Las/2ML squad without any conversion, despite what the booklet says.

 

Funny that people whine about the loss of creativity in the kits but assume that because the instructions only say the kit can be used a few ways, it must be true.

 

 

I'm glad to hear this :D

[Halandaar]

 

Can you? I was going purely off the booklet and figured it was a wash since the lascannon and missile launcher backpacks share the connector bit. Or is it a case of there being 4 of that bit on the sprues and I'm just blind?

 

There are indeed 4 of that backpack bit, I built my squad with 2 Las / 2 ML this weekend :)

[DuskRaider]

Funny that people whine about the loss of creativity in the kits but assume that because the instructions only say the kit can be used a few ways, it must be true.

Hate to tell you but that's how a lot of hobbyists are now. You need to hold their hand.

[Dragonlover]

 

 

Can you? I was going purely off the booklet and figured it was a wash since the lascannon and missile launcher backpacks share the connector bit. Or is it a case of there being 4 of that bit on the sprues and I'm just blind?

 

There are indeed 4 of that backpack bit, I built my squad with 2 Las / 2 ML this weekend

 

 

Well blow me down, that is one misleading instruction booklet then! Cheers dude!

 

Dragonlover

[Halandaar]

Well blow me down, that is one misleading instruction booklet then! Cheers dude!

 

I figure they can only put so many combinations in the book otherwise it would be massive! One of the designers definitely alluded to this on a recent Voxcast, that there are more ways to put stuff together than the booklets suggest.

[Darnok]

 

Well blow me down, that is one misleading instruction booklet then! Cheers dude!

 

I figure they can only put so many combinations in the book otherwise it would be massive! One of the designers definitely alluded to this on a recent Voxcast, that there are more ways to put stuff together than the booklets suggest.

Thanks for confirming this.

[Midnight Brotherhood]

 

Well blow me down, that is one misleading instruction booklet then! Cheers dude!

 

I figure they can only put so many combinations in the book otherwise it would be massive! One of the designers definitely alluded to this on a recent Voxcast, that there are more ways to put stuff together than the booklets suggest.

 

 

I'm looking at the booklet now and the booklet is a guide to make them look like the box and offers variations, but on the whole it looks like you can put any pair of arms on anything to be honest. The legs and torso are static but everything else is pretty customisable and this is forgiveable considering how meh the old torso and leg poses were.

 

The only thing I'm figuring out is how to paint them, in the past I used to just leave the bolters off but with these new ones it suggests you assemble the arms together first and then glue both arms onto the torso after. I might have to leave the arms off to get access to the chest which is kind of annoying as I'd need to leave the shoulder pads off too.

[El_Dicko]

I’ve got the Shadowspear guys and a box of the new marines and I’m not too fussed about using a hobby knife extensively to get the most out of them. Hell I used forsaken legs and a some random bits and got an extra 5 or 6 dudes out the new plague marine kit.

 

I am a little worried about the terminator kit however. Would you guys say it’s worth it mixed with the new plastic Tartaros and Cataphractii? I’ve got a box of each mostly unassembled.

[Tyriks]

There's definitely more options for variation in the new CSM box than this thread suggests. I swapped a few torsos without having to cut anything and they worked fine.

[Mister Feral]

Good to hear you’re not locked in to particular weapons for Havocs. I picked up a box today but from the cursory glance at the instructions I was worried that I would be restricted to weapons only fitting certain bodies.

 

As for the main Chaos Marine kit, my experience with it is mostly positive - yes it is missing enough of some base weapons and some modelling flexibility, but overall the sheer improvements in the details and poses more than make up for it! I’ve been mixing in some Raptor heads for variation.

[Wayniac]

This is one of the worst things for me about the new kits and style GW is going.  We have way better-looking models, but we lost the customization parts we had from the old kits.  I don't want to be told I have to build this model this way, or this model has to be in a running pose, or only these two bodies can have this weapon.  For all the crap the old kit got, it let you lay out the parts and build guys how YOU wanted.  The current Tactical Squad kit and the MkIII/IV sprues are IMHO the gold standards for how things should be (Tac Squad more since it has a lot more variety).  This is.. cool kits but clearly designed for a shelf somewhere.

 

Sure the quality is better but IMHO what we lost was too much; we lost the soul of the model.  We lost being able to make "our dudes".  Now we have to make our dudes the way GW tells us they should look.

[Prot]

I'm torn on reading some of this.

 

So for reference, I've put together the Shadowspear kit (including the CSM in that box) and I really liked those a lot. I understand their purpose and I think they're a great kit for what you get overall, and the target market.

 

Next up the CSM squad box. 10 models, not too daunting, but while not being quite as flexible as I am used to seeing from playing this game for a few decades, it is solid. I just wish the weapon swaps were a little less... involved. I'm not a big customization guy. I'm not very good at conversion work.

 

The most disappointed I've been so far is Havocs. I don't really understand why there are so many subtle breaks in the models... like the feet. They remind me of raptor feet but they are in a lot of parts... don't mix these up. I clipped too many at first and found it was really tedious matching it all up.

 

So I only put one of my Havoc boxes together. 2 Lascannons, 2 Chainguns (one I sliced off my Obliterator model). I realized I may not be able to swap bodies though. I don't want all lascannon guys to be identical by the pair. I don't want the Chaingun guys looking identical in pairs either. I'm uncertain if I can take... a Lascannon body, and put a Chaingun on it.

 

It was at this point I realized the heads are apparently locked to the back pack and to a degree... the weapon. I think I wanted a different head on a lascannon dude, but realized the head attached to theLascannon AND the back pack.

 

 

A truly downside for me in that Havoc kit is I like to paint models semi assembled. It's going to be very hard. I'm trying to make sure ammo feeds line up with backpacks, while backpacks line up with heads, while guns line up with ammo feeds, and the gun arms line up with the Torso. There's a LOT of room for error. Be careful when putting these together.

 

The Havocs themselves look incredible. The only complaint I have beside the lack of Chainguns is the champion kit is devoid of a single Boltgun or chaosy Stormbolter (which I think would have been fantastic for a Havoc Champ).

 

The Havoc kit (as you can see above) has slowed me down a lot, and added a certain fatigue to assembly I don't normally have, and have never experienced even with Primaris. I mean these models are EXACT in every way imaginable. I'm frankly afraid of experimenting the above scenarion of a Chaingun body holding a Lascannon (or vice versa).

 

Seeing this I have skipped the Termies entirely. I don't like the load out, and I have (thankfully) 1 Unbuilt old kit. I may revisit Termies some day, but I figure it will take me most of my spare time over the next week just assembling Havocs.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well. Sounds like I'm in luck in that I have plenty of old kits I can build however i please with even a modicum of effort.

[ChazSexington]

Gee Dubs redefining Lawful Evil:

 

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/17/pre-order-preview-abaddon-chaos-space-marines-and-more/

 

[Midnight Brotherhood]

This is one of the worst things for me about the new kits and style GW is going.  We have way better-looking models, but we lost the customization parts we had from the old kits.  I don't want to be told I have to build this model this way, or this model has to be in a running pose, or only these two bodies can have this weapon.  For all the crap the old kit got, it let you lay out the parts and build guys how YOU wanted.  The current Tactical Squad kit and the MkIII/IV sprues are IMHO the gold standards for how things should be (Tac Squad more since it has a lot more variety).  This is.. cool kits but clearly designed for a shelf somewhere.

 

Sure the quality is better but IMHO what we lost was too much; we lost the soul of the model.  We lost being able to make "our dudes".  Now we have to make our dudes the way GW tells us they should look.

 

I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you're making it out. The tactical squad and old CSM squad both have one thing in common - you are still confined to the same leg poses and you can only hold the bolters / weapons in a preset way because of the way arms are angled. The leg poses in those kits don't equal a lot more variety. This hasn't changed with the new kits, if anything the new gives you more leg poses than the old kit with better posing than what you could do with just adjusting a torso. You can still choose the backpacks, heads, pauldrons however you want or kit bash them with other bits, you can still choose which boltgun you want for a certain guy, that hasn't changed going from the old to the new kits either.

 

We don't have to make our dudes look the way GW tells us too at all, you don't have to follow the instruction booklet as others have pointed out.

[Closet Skeleton]

Hate to say it, but welcome to the Primaris age...

 

 

Hate to say it but you're just wrong with the specific example. Tempestus Scions have this problem but the Primaris kits don't.

 

Sounds more like the Plague Marine kit.

[Khornestar]

I’m loving them.

 

But then, I also consider WYSIWYG to be a boring trap that limits my ability to play around with the customizability of units in the game. You know, that meltagun can count as a plasma gun sometimes, and you’re not a dirty bastard for doing that. Just be reasonable with the counts-as and communicate with/remind your opponent who has what and it will all work out in the end.

 

You might be surprised how easy it can be to sculpt the soft joints between segments of power armor (elbows, knees, armpits, etc.). With the right kind of hobby blade (or dremel cutting wheel) and a steady hand, you can chop limbs from torsos quite easily. With pinning and sculpting, you can repose almost anything to a certain degree. No, not literally anything, there are cloaks and various parts that complicate the process. Yup, it takes a lot of work. Said another way, it takes a lot of time.

 

If you’re lamenting the effort required to have a “unique” army beyond mixing and matching a few parts, I don’t really see how anything has changed in the grand scheme of things. Old CSM looked so terrible compared to Dark Vengeance models, I still ended up having to cut and repose and green stuff joints to get some decent poses.

 

IMO these models look so good I think for the most part arm/head/shoulder swaps are enough for me. After building ~35 berzerkers that are all uniquely posed (none of which from the IMO awful plastic GW kit) as well as gods know how many other conversions over the years, I’m excited to not have to put in so much work to get the look I want.

 

It’s just... I dunno, I state the obvious and my desire is not to insult anyone’s intelligence, but we never get everything we want. We can accept/appreciate what we get, put the effort into making it what we want it to be, reject it totally, or just complain about it. Only the first 3 options seem worthwhile, to me. Gods know I am a complainer extraordinaire, but complaining will not bring about the outcome I desire. GW will not read my forum posts and perform a sudden about-face with their business practices. Not accusing anyone of being pure complainers, and a diversity of opinions is cool, but with every major change in this hobby there are those who take things so personally and just cannot reconcile their desires with reality that the negativity becomes toxic and frankly, pathetic. I hope we can avoid that!