As nice as the new Chaos Marine kits look...

[Gederas]

I’m loving them.

 

But then, I also consider WYSIWYG to be a boring trap that limits my ability to play around with the customizability of units in the game. You know, that meltagun can count as a plasma gun sometimes, and you’re not a dirty bastard for doing that. Just be reasonable with the counts-as and communicate with/remind your opponent who has what and it will all work out in the end.

 

You might be surprised how easy it can be to sculpt the soft joints between segments of power armor (elbows, knees, armpits, etc.). With the right kind of hobby blade (or dremel cutting wheel) and a steady hand, you can chop limbs from torsos quite easily. With pinning and sculpting, you can repose almost anything to a certain degree. No, not literally anything, there are cloaks and various parts that complicate the process. Yup, it takes a lot of work. Said another way, it takes a lot of time.

 

If you’re lamenting the effort required to have a “unique” army beyond mixing and matching a few parts, I don’t really see how anything has changed in the grand scheme of things. Old CSM looked so terrible compared to Dark Vengeance models, I still ended up having to cut and repose and green stuff joints to get some decent poses.

 

IMO these models look so good I think for the most part arm/head/shoulder swaps are enough for me. After building ~35 berzerkers that are all uniquely posed (none of which from the IMO awful plastic GW kit) as well as gods know how many other conversions over the years, I’m excited to not have to put in so much work to get the look I want.

 

It’s just... I dunno, I state the obvious and my desire is not to insult anyone’s intelligence, but we never get everything we want. We can accept/appreciate what we get, put the effort into making it what we want it to be, reject it totally, or just complain about it. Only the first 3 options seem worthwhile, to me. Gods know I am a complainer extraordinaire, but complaining will not bring about the outcome I desire. GW will not read my forum posts and perform a sudden about-face with their business practices. Not accusing anyone of being pure complainers, and a diversity of opinions is cool, but with every major change in this hobby there are those who take things so personally and just cannot reconcile their desires with reality that the negativity becomes toxic and frankly, pathetic. I hope we can avoid that!

Yeah, seriously.

 

The new kits seeming less customizable just means it's more rewarding to figure out how to do it. They're still as customizable and kitbash-friendly as the old plastic ones, you just need to think and plan a bit more.

 

Like, here's a few examples I did:

Rhaxus Molax, Master of the Fleet of the World Eaters' 32nd Company:

Kits/parts used: Obsidius Mallex (body and thunderhammer), Haarken Worldclaimer (head), Possessed (backpack), PRIMARIS HELLBLASTERS (bionic arm), 30k Khârn (right shoulder), World Eaters Mark III shoulders (left shoulder), Khorne Berzerkers (plasma Pistol), Blood Warriors (torso front), Chaos Marines (pouch), wire (tubes on his gut)

 

Chaos Lord (on the path to Ascension):

Kits/parts used: Greater Possessed, Warp Talons

 

Nurgle Sorcerer

Kits/parts used: Dark Imperium Plague Champion (torso, backpack), Blightkings/Foul Blightspawn (head), Plague Marines (right arm), Master of Possession (scythe haft), Deathshroud (scythe head), Devastators (left hand), Mark III shoulder (right)

 

Nothing in there uses a kit older than the start of 8th edition as the main basis of the kitbash.

 

Honestly, the new kits feel MORE customizable, as even though the torsos are set, it's still easy enough to do swaps (they're plastic kits, it's not like they're metal people ) and the result can look as good as official kits if you actually put more than the bare minimum of effort in. Anyone who plays World Eaters/uses Khorne Berzerkers can attest, it's not that difficult to kitbash the new GW kits to make good-looking marines.

And I say this as someone who kitbashed TWENTY-FOUR Berzerkers and quite a few World Eater HQs using a combination of the Easy-to-Build Blood Warriors and the actual kit along with marine parts and other AoS stuff to make them.

 

So, I kind of think I at least somewhat know what I'm talking about with this

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Sure. And that works for you. But take my situation: I have a newborn and my hobby budget has shrunk over the past ten years to "one or two kits a year." I do not have the money to buy seven kits in order to convert one squad, nor do I have the time to slice, blu-tac, greenstuff, and otherwise piece together ten models in anything approaching a reasonable amount of time. The crux of the argument isn't that "converting is too hard," it's "simple kitbashing is easy enough." There's a difference, and it has nothing to do with creativity.

[Khornestar]

And what’s the problem, given your situation? With that specific set of circumstances, what are you hoping to achieve? (Straightforward, no snark or sarcasm intended.)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I don't understand your question. If you mean, "Why am I arguing these points?" then my response is that posts like yours and Gederas' are pushing GW's narrative that these new kits are easily convertible and ideal for mix-and-match kitbashes with the rest if their range. But they're not. If it takes more time and effort than I can afford, when the old kit let me swap pieces around and make a lot of reasonably different models without all the extra resources, then I and others obviously have a right to complain.

 

Everyone hobbies differently, it doesn't make anyone's hobbying more or less valid.

[Prot]

Juggernaut, you have to realize you're definitely not the norm when it comes to kit building and bashing. I've watched you over the years do some miraculous things with basic kit bashing and your combined skills with other mediums is truly fantastic. I know for a fact though I've hounded you to paint these up, but you rarely do.

 

I'm trying to put armies together, not squads. I'm playing armies at tournaments, stores, friend groups.... all painted, all assembled. I can't do what you do and I need it all done and playable. For a pure hobbiest like yourself (who self admittedly does not like painting, and doesn't play often) this is a gold mine opportunity for you.

 

That said you're still definitely in the minority. I love the work you've done...loved your series of Daemonkin Juggers where mine looks like a halfwit put it together. Most of us can't/don't want to put that amount of effort into units. (Even if I had that sort of time to fit it in with playing/painting, I know mine would look like crap).

 

Those Havocs, as I previously posted, are really hand cuffing for a guy like me.

 

I'm 40 hours of painting into Abaddon. Painting is my thing... I just really can't/don't want to put 40 hours into semi converting havocs.

[Khornestar]

My question was literal, and no insult or judgment whatsoever intended.

 

Given that you have limited time (baby) and money (baby), what are you trying to do? Build an army, execute a small but unique project, etc.? It was more just out of curiosity than anything that I ask, as I’ll be in a similar situation soon enough.

 

As far as having a right to complain, I don’t really care. Hopefully there is some satisfaction achieved by complaining, or hopefully there is some action to go along with complaining, or hopefully complaining isn’t the goal in and of itself. The kits aren’t ideal, by a huge margin. My point isn’t to pretend that they are, it’s to find a way to do something about it or find ways to enjoy them despite their flaws.

 

*edit*

 

Yeah I really should get around to finishing some stuff... :P. Thank you for the kind words, as well.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It shouldn't matter what the end goal is; even if all I ever wanted was to build one five man squad and never paint or play them, the resources necessary for me to do that to your level are not available. But since you asked, I'm looking to expand my current army and ensure that it is painted and playable in a semi-competitive environment.

 

As for complaining, the purpose of that is simply to express frustration about the new kits, and to provide a counterpoint to the "it's so easy!" crowd. Seeking satisfaction has nothing to do with it

[BolterZorro]

Try to get the shadowspear half and you'll get plenty for the money. This half is really a steal.

[Gederas]

Amusingly, I hop onto Youtube and what's in my feed but this:

 

Juggernaut, you have to realize you're definitely not the norm when it comes to kit building and bashing. I've watched you over the years do some miraculous things with basic kit bashing and your combined skills with other mediums is truly fantastic. I know for a fact though I've hounded you to paint these up, but you rarely do.

 

I'm trying to put armies together, not squads. I'm playing armies at tournaments, stores, friend groups.... all painted, all assembled. I can't do what you do and I need it all done and playable. For a pure hobbiest like yourself (who self admittedly does not like painting, and doesn't play often) this is a gold mine opportunity for you.

 

That said you're still definitely in the minority. I love the work you've done...loved your series of Daemonkin Juggers where mine looks like a halfwit put it together. Most of us can't/don't want to put that amount of effort into units. (Even if I had that sort of time to fit it in with playing/painting, I know mine would look like crap).

 

Those Havocs, as I previously posted, are really hand cuffing for a guy like me.

 

I'm 40 hours of painting into Abaddon. Painting is my thing... I just really can't/don't want to put 40 hours into semi converting havocs.

I can understand preferring to paint. But I do have a question. Do you paint for tournament painting or?

Because I cannot wrap my head around spending 40 hours on a model as small as Abaddon. I can understand bigger vehicles and Knights, but something Abaddon's size just makes me go "wha?"

[Sception]

I absolutely love the look of the new models - I've been waiting for exactly this aesthetic re imagining of the core CSM line for nearly a decade now, so my own personal first instinct is absolutely to forgive and make excuses for these new kits, and I'm no slouch when it comes to significant conversion work and kit bashing - my dark vengeance chosen were completely rebuilt even to the point of sawing apart and dremmeling out their then distinctively shaped shoulder pads in order to duplicate them via press molding so that I could maintain a consistent look accross the unit even as I pulled in raptor arms to get the equipment mix I wanted  So I'm both prone to overlooking these issues and capable of working around them.

 

And all that said, while again I still love these kits overall, *even I* have to admit that the design philosophy behind these models makes kit bashing & basic customization like re-posing significantly more difficult and time consuming than it honestly needed to be.

 

 

As for equipment selection, at least when it comes to basic marines... I have to wonder if we weren't overdue for "bolter CSMs" and "pistol CSMS" to become separate units, or at least separate boxes.  For terminators... only one combi plas?  Really?  When you get two combi melt and combi flamer?  Two of each would have been possible.  We didn't need 10 whole different heads in every box.  If only 5 slots were available, should have been 3 plasma, 1x flamer & melta.  As for the axes... travesty.  They probably could have saved enough room to make it work by making the weapons separate from the weapon arms?  Those sprues are admittedly pretty packed already, but if havocs got three sprues, terminators could have gotten the same.

 

As for the havocs, I'm torn.  No way 4 of each heavy weapon was going in that box.  Even two of each would have been a stretch.  The obvious preferred method for heavy weapon squads would be FW's style - get the squad, then separately order a pack of just whatever heavy weapons you want, but I doubt GW wants to go that route.  They used to do themed expansion pack style boxes, like just shoulder pads & weapon options matching this or that chapter to use in conjunction with the core boxes.  Something like that might help here, but it's not something they do anymore either.  I don't see a particularly great alternative here, though only one of the new fancy gun is super frustrating and feels like a deliberate middle finger, plus the way they handled the backpacks is just frustrating.

 

 

I'm real conflicted about the whole thing, because, again, I /adore/ these models.  In particular, I love how havocs have become a sort of cult unit in and of themselves rather than just a generic heavy weapon squad, that absolutely fits with my understanding of the warping influence of chaos - taking whatever you are and making you more of that.  Thematically, conceptually, that's just a fantastic direction to take the squad in.  I wish they had done more of that with raptors - though warp talons are a decent stand in there, at least conceptually.

 

But making them so different and distinct also means making them less compatible and less interchangeable with regular marines.  You can't just have a pile of heavy weapon marines and assign them as troop squad upgrades or heavy weapon squads as you will game to game.  Or rather, you can't do so without losing the cool visual signifiers of that narrative distinction.

Try to get the shadowspear half and you'll get plenty for the money. This half is really a steal.

 

 

Good luck with that.  It seems to be sold out everywhere.  Another production run should be coming in later this month, but that's also supposedly the last run, after which the box set will be retired altogether.  And so far there's no hint of the currently exclusive units within the box (master of possession, obliterators, greater possessed, venomcrawler) being made available otherwise.

[Khornestar]

I dunno about Shadowspear being retired so quickly, given how well it’s selling. Asked a GW manager and he guessed a year of production, at least. Time will tell!

[Sception]

source on the shadowspear thing:

 

[Kaldoth]

Gonna have to +1 what Prot and Ferrum said. The old kit, while admittedly much worse looking, wasn't covered in details. Joints were easily accessible for cutting and pinning. Legs and torsos weren't molded together, they were separate pieces. You had loads of large flat areas to work with for sculpting and customization. Extra bits, loin cloths, mail, grenades, ammo pouches... all of that was up to your discretion. That and because the csm and sm just were sized the same, swapping parts between them was a breeze. In order to re-pose or sculpt on these dudes, you have your work cut out for you. I don't have the money to sink into specialty cutting tools to get these torsos away from the legs they are joined to. If I want to make custom trim around chest pieces or vambraces, it's a lot more work than simply sanding the old stuff off.

 

My intent here wasn't to start a complaint factory at all. But, for people like me that want truly unique models without having to invest loads of time and money into supplies and different kits for kitbashing, it's not a thing that is possible with the new kit design. I used to be able to make some really unique conversions with nothing more than a hobby knife, green stuff, and a single sculpting tool. I also used to be able to choose where I wanted extra bits like knives and ammo pouches went. Those options don't exist with this build as shown stuff. Not without serious investment in both time and money.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Let's be honest, though: even with multipose kits, they all tended to end up with variations of the same few poses. The main differences were in the exact pieces that were used (heads, shoulder pads, armour details, etc), but there were very few real differences in posing unless you were willing to break out the green stuff. I've seen plenty of armies (and bought plenty of second hand minis) that were built in the most boring way possible, squandering the benefits of multipose kits.

 

Overall, I think this kind of kit is a good thing. If you aren't a creative type, you can just put the models together as per the instructions and they'll look great; if you're better at modelling, there's still plenty you can do with them to make them more individual.

 

One thing I will agree on is that the kits need to have more of the basic options. IMHO, it should be possible to build a squad entirely armed with their basic equipment right out of the box.

 

I'm not the least surprised. That's how new age GW models are (not just since Primaris).

However I always feel like people are exaggerate the poseability of older kits. Sure you could twist the torso, but never a lot before it looked bad. Sure you could switch out torsos and legs but they all looked very same-y from the beginning so switching out didn't really do much without carefully comparing two models. The only thing I can easily agree on is the lack of additional bitz like grenades and stuff not being separate anymore. That sucks.

 

I don't think you're being fair to the older kits here. They did not produce identical models. Sure, without major work all your 'dudes holding a bolter across the chest' would look largely similar, but not carbon copies, as there'd always be a bit of wiggle in the joints, slightly different posing, one mini's arm is less set than others when you let it go so it drops a bit more etc. This was a good thing, the difference may have been small, but they were there and yours. This doesn't seem to happen with the modern kits, everything is designed to fit with specific components xyz, producing models that are far more 'clones', than the older kits. Is it still possible to make unique minis with these new kits? Sure, but it's harder. You really have to plan and maybe buy more kits to have what used to be obtainable by just building from a single kit. Not to mention issues with not getting enough basic weapons like bolters in the kit.

[Panzer]

 

I'm not the least surprised. That's how new age GW models are (not just since Primaris).

However I always feel like people are exaggerate the poseability of older kits. Sure you could twist the torso, but never a lot before it looked bad. Sure you could switch out torsos and legs but they all looked very same-y from the beginning so switching out didn't really do much without carefully comparing two models. The only thing I can easily agree on is the lack of additional bitz like grenades and stuff not being separate anymore. That sucks.

 

I don't think you're being fair to the older kits here. They did not produce identical models. Sure, without major work all your 'dudes holding a bolter across the chest' would look largely similar, but not carbon copies, as there'd always be a bit of wiggle in the joints, slightly different posing, one mini's arm is less set than others when you let it go so it drops a bit more etc. This was a good thing, the difference may have been small, but they were there and yours. This doesn't seem to happen with the modern kits, everything is designed to fit with specific components xyz, producing models that are far more 'clones', than the older kits. Is it still possible to make unique minis with these new kits? Sure, but it's harder. You really have to plan and maybe buy more kits to have what used to be obtainable by just building from a single kit. Not to mention issues with not getting enough basic weapons like bolters in the kit.

 

 

Well I didn't say identical. I said same-y which implies they do look slightly different. Just not a whole lot. ^^

[Khornestar]

For whatever it's worth, the only special cutting tool needed is a different style of blade that will fit into whatever blade handle you're currently using. Can get a pack of blades for a few dollars/quid/dollarydoos.

[Evil Eye]

Whilst the lack of poseability on the new kits is a shame, I can't be too mad at them. The increase in detail and "fluidity" to the sculpts is excellent, and whilst the previous kit was indeed more poseable/customizable out of the box, you pretty much had to get creative with conversions, because let's be real, vanilla they looked kinda dated. A lot of that was down to the sculpting technology of the time, sure (they date back to 3rd edition!) but the basic construction of the kit didn't help much, and it didn't even offer that much poseability.

 

The new kits, whilst more "monopose" than their predecessors, are still eminently customizable- it just takes a bit more skill to do so. But even then, converting plastic models in multiple components is a hell of a lot better than converting pewter minis that comprised of 2 or 3 pieces.

 

Now personally, I think it would have been possible to make them more poseable whilst keeping the details- giving them a basic "naked" Primaris style armour layout and then loads of extra detail parts you could glue on over the top would have been a good compromise, but then again you would still have lost out on sculpt integrity and it would have cost a hell of a lot more.

 

The weapon options being lacking is a bit of a shame, admittedly. Personally I wish they'd make a return to doing upgrade sprues via the website or in stores or whatever, but devoting the resources to tooling plastic sprues for upgrades people may or may not buy is perhaps not the best business idea. Maybe Forge World could get in on the action like they did with Necromunda?

[Doghouse]

I've put twenty of these guys together and found it a pain in the backside straight out of the box. I was hoping to go with all bolters but could only make sixteen and had to grab some Shadowspear ones off ebay to make up the shortcomings.

 

I think the models look nice, they are very detailed but I find them frustrating in that they are not conversion friendly. The beauty of the older kits is that it had so many parts you could use, all the SM and CSM parts being interchangeable has always been a godsend and allowed anyone to be creative and more versatile. 

 

These new ones feels more like GW saying we want you to make them in the poses we designed. It's too much unnecessary hand holding, it works fine for characters but for general infantry it just feels a bit crap. It like them saying look how cool this pose is, now every forth or fifth guy in your army has to use that exact same pose.  It's even worse with the Havocs. 

[Prot]

Amusingly, I hop onto Youtube and what's in my feed but this:

 

 

 

Juggernaut, you have to realize you're definitely not the norm when it comes to kit building and bashing. I've watched you over the years do some miraculous things with basic kit bashing and your combined skills with other mediums is truly fantastic. I know for a fact though I've hounded you to paint these up, but you rarely do.

 

I'm trying to put armies together, not squads. I'm playing armies at tournaments, stores, friend groups.... all painted, all assembled. I can't do what you do and I need it all done and playable. For a pure hobbiest like yourself (who self admittedly does not like painting, and doesn't play often) this is a gold mine opportunity for you.

 

That said you're still definitely in the minority. I love the work you've done...loved your series of Daemonkin Juggers where mine looks like a halfwit put it together. Most of us can't/don't want to put that amount of effort into units. (Even if I had that sort of time to fit it in with playing/painting, I know mine would look like crap).

 

Those Havocs, as I previously posted, are really hand cuffing for a guy like me.

 

I'm 40 hours of painting into Abaddon. Painting is my thing... I just really can't/don't want to put 40 hours into semi converting havocs.

I can understand preferring to paint. But I do have a question. Do you paint for tournament painting or?

 

Because I cannot wrap my head around spending 40 hours on a model as small as Abaddon. I can understand bigger vehicles and Knights, but something Abaddon's size just makes me go "wha?"

 

 

Hey I watched the same video! Some nice easy swaps in that video if you have the old kits which are a bit more forgiving. (I do have plenty though.)

 

As far as my painting.... you can check my blog in my sig or my instagram in my sig. I've sold a lot of stuff, and stopped taking personal commissions... but I do still paint a ton. I love it, and when I come across a center piece like Abaddon.... you bet I'm going to spend a lot of time on him. His head took me a good 3 hours, his sword took probably three times that and I did something unique with his cloak that took me probably 3 x 2 hour sessions....

 

Basically that's what I prefer to spend my time on. I'm not a "juggernut". His conversions far exceed anything I could do.

 

+edit+ BTW: I just realized I put 40 when I meant 20. Realistically.. .not that it matters, but I just realized that. lol

[Bryan Blaire]

 

Hate to say it, but welcome to the Primaris age...

 

Hate to say it but you're just wrong with the specific example. Tempestus Scions have this problem but the Primaris kits don't.

 

Sounds more like the Plague Marine kit.

Hate to say it, but I didn’t specify a kit, I specified an “age”... ;) The Primaris and even Plague Marine kits have kit-bashing potential in them - you don’t have to build them the way GW shows - but they certainly aren’t quite as free-form as older Marine kits used to be. It just takes some getting used to and looking for what you do want to do between parts and figuring out how to get there. Not everything involves resculpting (but some judicious gap covering or wonky alignment with bits can go a long way).

 

And my Scions didn’t have that problem... maybe we got different kits? Ah well, off topic in the Chaos area anyway.

[AgentOrange]

I think my disagreement here is that any of the ways we've "lost" for customizing them are actually a loss.  The twist at the belt line where the belt buckle and cables all moved to go along with the chestplate always looked horrible and unnatural.  The new molded-in thoracic twists look much better.  The tabards to glue on always looked just that- some chunk of thing pasted on to a separate model.  While the option for some tabard-less legs would have been nice, the ones that are sculpted look so much better and more organic.  Everything else is still there.  Arms, shoulders, heads, packs, easy swaps.  

 

I may agree with time needing to be involved for more intricate customization, but not more money.  I've got a toddler and my wife is probably leaving a very lucrative career, so we're not exactly drowning in cash, but I can and have gotten a ton of customization out of the Chaos half of Shadowspear and a box of marines alone.  And I haven't spent any more than on the supplies I already have to build.

[DuskRaider]

I don't understand your question. If you mean, "Why am I arguing these points?" then my response is that posts like yours and Gederas' are pushing GW's narrative that these new kits are easily convertible and ideal for mix-and-match kitbashes with the rest if their range. But they're not. If it takes more time and effort than I can afford, when the old kit let me swap pieces around and make a lot of reasonably different models without all the extra resources, then I and others obviously have a right to complain.

 

Everyone hobbies differently, it doesn't make anyone's hobbying more or less valid.

I have to ask: how is this GW's fault or concern? I ask as a parent as well. It's not their problem that you (or I for that matter) don't have much time to sit down and assemble their product. I'm really not sure what to tell you.

 

I, for one, am happy that I can finally have Marines that look like they're properly aiming their Bolters.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

GW changed how the models go together. They did that, so it's their fault. Now, whether or not they care, or if posability was even on their mind, is a separate issue.

[Azekai]

I hear you Iron Father, my enthusiasm for toycutting has flagged after the release of these new kits- and I really dislike how busy the models are. All the fiddly (and often ugly) details make removing an arm or a leg about as simple and straightforward as removing a real-life limb.

Still going to see what I can do with some of this Shadow Spear kit, but I am not over-optimistic.

[Minsc]

 

I have to ask: how is this GW's fault or concern? I ask as a parent as well. It's not their problem that you (or I for that matter) don't have much time to sit down and assemble their product. I'm really not sure what to tell you.

If a customer stops buying your product because he/she looses interest in it for a reason that you as a business caused, then it's your concern.

 

It's GW's "fault" because they caused it by designing the kit the way they did, and they should be "concerned" about loosing out on potential revenue.