As nice as the new Chaos Marine kits look...

[Darnok]

I dunno about Shadowspear being retired so quickly, given how well it’s selling. Asked a GW manager and he guessed a year of production, at least. Time will tell!

These sets have a number of copies produced in advance of release, and when those are gone they are gone. GW can of course do another production run, but it would take time.

 

If the set is selling exceptionelly well it is safe to say that sooner rather than later it will be off the shelves for at least some time.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

I have to ask: how is this GW's fault or concern? I ask as a parent as well. It's not their problem that you (or I for that matter) don't have much time to sit down and assemble their product. I'm really not sure what to tell you.

If a customer stops buying your product because he/she looses interest in it for a reason that you as a business caused, then it's your concern.

 

It's GW's "fault" because they caused it by designing the kit the way they did, and they should be "concerned" about loosing out on potential revenue.

 

This too. Out of this wave of releases, the only things I really want are the Noctilith Crown and some Oblits. The Havocs and CSMs and new characters don't do anything for me.

[AgentOrange]

 

 

I have to ask: how is this GW's fault or concern? I ask as a parent as well. It's not their problem that you (or I for that matter) don't have much time to sit down and assemble their product. I'm really not sure what to tell you.

If a customer stops buying your product because he/she looses interest in it for a reason that you as a business caused, then it's your concern.

 

It's GW's "fault" because they caused it by designing the kit the way they did, and they should be "concerned" about loosing out on potential revenue. 

 

 

 

 

Judging by general response though, the number of customers put off by that decision is much smaller than the number of customers who are excited by the quality of the new sculpts compared to the ancient kit.  There have been a lot of Chaos converts because of this release, so I don't think GW is feeling particularly concerned.

[DuskRaider]

GW changed how the models go together. They did that, so it's their fault. Now, whether or not they care, or if posability was even on their mind, is a separate issue.

Of course they changed them. They had to change scale and they gave them more detail. It shocks me that people are defending the old squat legged kits. How many ways can you pose a Marine that has his Bolter up against his chest? They served their purpose for quite some time but the kit is dated and it really shows.

 

Give the new one a chance. It may take a little more time to assemble at first, but once they're together it's quite rewarding, they look great. Trust me, I'm a Death Guard player and wasn't too thrilled with their kits at first either and sometimes it took a couple sessions of sitting down to finish them due to time constraints, but at the end of the day they're in a completely different class than the old ones.

[Isengrin]

 

 

I have to ask: how is this GW's fault or concern? I ask as a parent as well. It's not their problem that you (or I for that matter) don't have much time to sit down and assemble their product. I'm really not sure what to tell you.

If a customer stops buying your product because he/she looses interest in it for a reason that you as a business caused, then it's your concern.

 

It's GW's "fault" because they caused it by designing the kit the way they did, and they should be "concerned" about loosing out on potential revenue. 

 

Nothing wrong with that thought, customer value is an intensely important factor. (Although what has how much value to whom and how many customers there are in any of these segments is relevant as well  )

 

I get all the complaints about the lack of customizability and the amount of time involved to do simple conversions. After all I'm pretty much in the same boat...clipping the csm heads out of the Shadowspear sprues was my hobby "highlight" last week and I've wondered about GW's kit design for a while now.

 

But...after I've worked and sawed my way through a few plague marines and a couple of the new chaos minis, I feel like we haven't lost much but gained quite a bit. I wouldn't trade the new kits for anything in the world. The new box contains ten unique marines, whereas before there wasn't much difference between any of them. Still, I get it, building a second unit without duplicates can be a pain so I'll just say this. The chaos community has always been a resourceful bunch full of inventive folks and I'm looking forward to the conversions people come up with and I hope many of them get posted here (especially with ETL around the corner). If your not into conversions or lack the time, I'm sure there's a way to get around that too. There always is.

[MaliGn]

No! If there's one thing they can skimp on it's Bolt Pistols and Chainswords. Bolter squads are simply going to be the most popular build hands-down and if you get two boxes you've got all you need for a full 10+ squad to have Bolt Pistols and Chainswords. 5-6 of each would be plenty if it means more room for a Combi or more combat options, especially when we know Berzerkers are coming at some point and they'll just add more.

Not to mention the inevitable spare chainswords and pistols from even a single raptors kit!

 

I think I sit somewhere between some of the earlier posts - family limits my own hobby time and budget and I too will buy maybe a handful of kits per year, however I am conscious that because of the limit to time that I can gradually build up the kits I want to create the kitbashes I want to create - for example I am currently building a unit of raptors mixing them with blood warriors, I have been gathering the three boxes I needed for this project for over two years! I have in this way managed to build a healthy stash of bits and pieces in a decent bits box that has lasted me for years.

 

Ok so I don't play much and having the most optimised force isn't really a concern for me and I don't need it quickly so there's that to consider as well but using my current approach I have mixed the dark vengeance cultists and the extra mini box with the flagellants kit and made loads of unique figures such that no two of them are alike, and they even were pushfit... And as someone who once sawed a pewter sorcerer in half with a hacksaw to make a biker sorcerer I have to say that combining the dark vengeance chosen with the thousand sons sorcerer's was a dream in comparison.

 

 

The chaos community has waited years for an updated cam kit, and now we get a minimum of 20 unique csm models (counting shadowspear - more if you add the fellas from Blackstone fortress) and we are supposed to be disappointed? Nope sorry not seeing it.

[Bryan Blaire]

If I could make a proposal (and this is with me not having started my kit of CSM), if folks are finding swappable torso/leg combinations, or even combinations between kits that work, maybe that could be housed in a thread so that everyone can reference and add to it? Maybe also give some idea of the amount of work (such as “shave down inside/outside of loin cloth” vs. “rebuild tube from top to bottom with Green stuff”) that it might take (if any).

 

Maybe a bit more comprehensive list (or even guide) might help folks feel less frustration over the whole thing?

 

Once I crack into my kit, I’ll start putting some things together if someone doesn’t beat me to it.

[Walter Payton]

The thing that annoys me is the same thing that has annoyed me about every GW infantry kid since nineteen-canteen, which is that nobody in the 41st millennium seems to carry spare magazines, grenades, or indeed kit of any kind.  Not even so much as a couple of spare boxes for the heavy bolter.  

 

No wonder the Tyranid's do so well if the Adeptus Astartes drop into combat with only 1 sickle magazine with 12 rounds in it.

[Subtle Discord]

Yup, I have to agree with the 10 unique models sentiment. Yes you could switch and swap the old 5-6 (7?) bodies and legs for a little bit of variety that quickly ran out and wasn't all that significant given the limited variety in the selection. I will agree that having some control over the waste is actually more powerful than some are giving it credit for, you can do a lot with a model with that bit of twist/tilt and it lets the builder swap the legs. With the modular way the torsos go together it could be done and still permit the added length, twist, and proportions that the new kits have; just make more/all of them with easy-swap front that some have in this kit.

 

The same goes for the arms as well, just a slight shift can make a large difference the the model, but I don't see that as much of an issue here; at first it may seem like the options are limited but I think the arms will be very versatile with some experimentation and some really simple forearm cuts for conversions. I'm also still sour on the loincloth details only because I dislike repetitive cloth, fur, and fabric, details in a larger collections; armour is mass produced (even if it has resided in the Warp) so some similar components are fine, but fabric is never going to fray, tatter, and lay/flow the same way. I still think giving their ability to make form-fitting complex components they could do them as bits that are thin and even somewhat flexible so they could be added or left off. It's a more minor quibble because...

 

... when you've got 10 unique base models the number of absolute repeats in a sizable force is going to be small; like, in the same range as the repeats you start to have even if you could switch-and-swap 5-7 leg/torso/arm options. I was worried about this with my AdMech project recently, but across 50 Vanguard made with the same 10 unique models and gear that is rather uniform and similar (especially compared to Chaos) there is almost no sense of repetition; I took the time to do some simple kit bashing to make the Alpha and Wargear operator unique but the rest of the squad relies on only arm, head, and pack, swaps. Only 1-in-10 are being created from the same base components so 5 guys across the 50 are sorta' the same and hard to pick out. Really, once they're all together you don't notice.

 

I plan to do the same with the new Chaos; build 10 somewhat stock, then do 10 with the easiest switch-and-swaps I can figure out, and then do 10 with more elaborate/daring bashing to see if it can be take a bit further. Most can easily handle the first two steps and get 20-40 Marines that all look reasonably different, but yes, you can never get completely away from repetitive models, only do your best to mitigate it with creative solutions. *Gasp!* That's 2-4 models that will look somewhat similar out of a sea of Chaos goodness. Nahhh... I think I can make this work and not sweat the details especially when the details are soooo good! Ten unique starting models with ten or more unique 'major bits' (head, pack, arms), plus all the other odds-and-ends (certain odd/glaring omissions with extra bits and gear is very annoying, I'll agree), and what will be an ever-growing selection of other bits, old and new, to bash in to the mix... I don't know, it's not perfect (what ever is, honestly?) but it's far from a horrible position to be in.

[Dragonlover]

If I could make a proposal (and this is with me not having started my kit of CSM), if folks are finding swappable torso/leg combinations, or even combinations between kits that work, maybe that could be housed in a thread so that everyone can reference and add to it? Maybe also give some idea of the amount of work (such as “shave down inside/outside of loin cloth” vs. “rebuild tube from top to bottom with Green stuff”) that it might take (if any).

 

Maybe a bit more comprehensive list (or even guide) might help folks feel less frustration over the whole thing?

 

Once I crack into my kit, I’ll start putting some things together if someone doesn’t beat me to it.

 

Fantastic idea, that thread is now here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355167-new-csm-range-kitbash-repository/

 

Dragonlover

[CptSlambo]

Been going through some of these posts and as a parent as well i gotta be honest i havent found buying new kits very frustrating.  Got the Chaos shadowspear off ebay then went and got abby with a box of the new marines havocs and a termy box.  The models are wonderful in terms of looks its what the chaos kit needed that being said im not super competitive.  But having each model look distinct really helps my immersion as lame as that sounds.  Not real big into converting but something simple i have seen done is cutting the chain cannon off the obliterator and putting it on a heavy weapons marine it actually looks pretty natural.  The only big complaint i have is the termy box the 1 axe is a joke and the combi is also a pretty bad joke.  Still in terms of looks im loving all the new stuff and cant wait to get my hands on that Apostle. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

GW changed how the models go together. They did that, so it's their fault. Now, whether or not they care, or if posability was even on their mind, is a separate issue.

Of course they changed them. They had to change scale and they gave them more detail. It shocks me that people are defending the old squat legged kits. How many ways can you pose a Marine that has his Bolter up against his chest? They served their purpose for quite some time but the kit is dated and it really shows.

 

Give the new one a chance. It may take a little more time to assemble at first, but once they're together it's quite rewarding, they look great. Trust me, I'm a Death Guard player and wasn't too thrilled with their kits at first either and sometimes it took a couple sessions of sitting down to finish them due to time constraints, but at the end of the day they're in a completely different class than the old ones.

This is a strawman. No one is defending the look, size, or style of the old kit. We're defending the ease of conversion compared to the new kit. The new ones obviously look better, but they're designed to go together *one way.*

[DuskRaider]

Just because you want to whine about it because GW didn't cater specifically to you doesn't make it a strawman.

 

And by the way, they don't just go together *one way*. Plenty of the parts are compatible but you need to.. you know... actually try it. I'll stop interrupting the cryfest with some positive ideas though, I know it's ruining the futility and negativity themes you guys are trying to stick with.

 

Actually you know what? Here's an exercise... throw out the instructions, clip off the body parts and see what goes together because I KNOW that the various pieces don't have to go together exactly as the instructions tell you to.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I guess you don't know what a strawman is.

[DuskRaider]

I'm in a bunch of political debate forums, I know exactly what a strawman is.

[MegaVolt87]

I looked more into the new terminators via youtube, it seems they are a head taller than the old indomni ones. Now the plastic cataphractii are not much bigger than the old indomni's. So- will the new termi sculpts be bigger than the plastic cataphractii ? 

[El_Dicko]

I looked more into the new terminators via youtube, it seems they are a head taller than the old indomni ones. Now the plastic cataphractii are not much bigger than the old indomni's. So- will the new termi sculpts be bigger than the plastic cataphractii ?

I’d really love to see a side by side before I order the new kit but I’ll probably just do it anyway. The pics of seen of old vs new don’t look vastly different though.

[Wayniac]

Being forced to kitbash because the base kit has barely above Monopose is a load of bull, plain and simple. Kitbashing should be an option, not something you need to do in order to get basic options. Just because you can kitbash is no excuse for MAKING you if you aren't a total scrub and want decent options.

 

Visually I like the kit. But it's too much "part 23 only goes with part 24" and that makes things very limited in score without hacking at parts. It's reminiscent of the old metal model days when to convert you needed to take a saw to models.

[Kite Senet]

They're honestly terrible, in my opinion. I just finished building a box of them, and this is possibly the most frustrating GW kit I've ever bought. When it comes to looks, I'll admit they're the upgrade that chaos needed. But when it comes to customization, they are utterly lacking in flexibility.

 

Going back to the original post...I haven't tried the new kits but I suspect "terrible" is a bit hyperbolic. That said, I'm particularly wondering as to whether they fit together properly. The worst GW kit I ever bought was a box of supposedly "easy-to-build" Intercessors that didn't fit together right at all due to the inflexibility and rigidity of the posing, leaving them with gaps between bits so bad I hadn't seen comparable since I assembled my Mantic Games Dwarf army. I hope the new CSM sculpt's rigid posing doesn't make them a pain in the butt to actually get them to fit together?

[Sgt. Blank]

I've converted a handful of Shadowspear stuff so far and can see where some people would be unhappy with the set up although I'm not personally finding it to be a huge issue so far.

 

Admittedly, I'm using the new figures to augment an existing force rather than building a large new force using only new parts, so that may skew my perspective, but I found the parts fairly easy to work with and, happily, fairly compatible with the bitz I've got on hand from older CSM kits and Age of Sigmar Blood Warriors. I'm building Berzerkers, though, so this is a bit different than working with bolters.

 

A razor saw or jewelers saw are pretty handy for quickly cutting with minimal loss of material. It does require a little planning but I've swapped arms with a couple minutes of sawing. Power armor is more forgiving to work on than, say, flesh or cloth, since the armor segments offer some natural spots where a cut can be hidden with minimal resculpting (shoulder, elbow, wrist, weapon)

 

If that puts you off, or you're not situated with bits to get the load outs you want, I see the complaint and don't have an easy alternative to offer.

 

One silver lining about having to manage hobby time around parenting and other responsibilities is that I've realized it is going to take a few sessions to get a unit built but taking time, particularly with green stuff tends to yield better results

[Larkyn]

I've built 30 of them so far, and just bought another box tonight. While I am sad it's fairly limited posing-wise, I'm LOVING the new models. They really aren't as ugly as the old models.

 

I built a big 20 man close combat weapon blob, and a 10 man shooty squad. Now granted, I did have to use Shadowspear and the two guys from BSF, but overall, I'm pretty happy with the loadout capabilities. The kit kinda requires you to make the heavy bolter or missile launcher, because there's a bit of a weapons discrepancy, but if you're buying multiple kits (which you should anyway if you're building a battalion), then you should be fine. In my case, I might use the leftover missile launchers and HB's to make an extra havoc squad.

 

I'm firmly in the Happy Camp.

[Kaldoth]

 

 

They're honestly terrible, in my opinion. I just finished building a box of them, and this is possibly the most frustrating GW kit I've ever bought. When it comes to looks, I'll admit they're the upgrade that chaos needed. But when it comes to customization, they are utterly lacking in flexibility.

 

Going back to the original post...I haven't tried the new kits but I suspect "terrible" is a bit hyperbolic. That said, I'm particularly wondering as to whether they fit together properly. The worst GW kit I ever bought was a box of supposedly "easy-to-build" Intercessors that didn't fit together right at all due to the inflexibility and rigidity of the posing, leaving them with gaps between bits so bad I hadn't seen comparable since I assembled my Mantic Games Dwarf army. I hope the new CSM sculpt's rigid posing doesn't make them a pain in the butt to actually get them to fit together?

Well, opinions are what they are :) I do *personally* think the assembly process on the new kits is dreadful and meticulous, and the lack of customization options is gutting. I think they are terrible, regardless of the upsizing and the higher quality in detail. I've never struggled to get a box of models together quite like these, and I've been building GW models for at least 15 years now. The amount of gaps in some places, tight fits in others, and wonky finger manipulation it took to get the pieces all together was a headache, and assembling is absolutely my favorite part of the hobby. I actually had to break out my bottle of plastic weld to get some of the wrist gaps to hold the bolters in place. Never had to do that with a basic box of troops before. Hopefully I just got a bum box. Regardless, paint has been put on them so hopefully I'll be a bit more pleased once they're finally finished.

[Schurge]

People preferred the old kits for 'variety'? I don't view being able to put 1 of 11 torsos on any of 10 sets of legs to be customization in this context (though I suppose technically it is)... especially if you are making bolter bros as you will cover up the chest without some some hacking and gap filling. All those legs by the way were basically the same pose the weight was just shifted. I can understand where the "two kits a year" guy is coming from, but they all still looked the same in the old CSM kit and on top of that it came with practically no bits or unique weapon poses.Oh yay, all the chainswords are attached to the arms in one of two positions... Oh joy I get to choose which arm I want to hold the barrel of the bolter and can have it pointing one of three directions... Ooo... a ton of pouches and holstered pistols that don't fit well... and more combat knives then I know what to do with...

 

The new stuff, even the push fit stuff from Shadowspear are very easy to convert and make look good.

[Skyrak Slaughterborn]

Im very happy with new kit. Sone things get under my skin like no combi weapons, no chainaxe or power sword. But overall the level of detail is phenominal. Heaps of different heads to choose from which is nice. Two different heavy weapons and compatability between havocs for further heavies.

The single pose bodies are the future though.. but thats nothing my razor saw cant fix.

[ChazSexington]

Sure. And that works for you. But take my situation: I have a newborn and my hobby budget has shrunk over the past ten years to "one or two kits a year." I do not have the money to buy seven kits in order to convert one squad, nor do I have the time to slice, blu-tac, greenstuff, and otherwise piece together ten models in anything approaching a reasonable amount of time. The crux of the argument isn't that "converting is too hard," it's "simple kitbashing is easy enough." There's a difference, and it has nothing to do with creativity.

 

Shouldn't the sharp decrease in kitbashability be good for you then? If you get a kit or two a year, the repetitive poses shouldn't be a problem? 

 

Not that it makes it any better for me, who was/is planning several squads, but for you personally that shouldn't be an issue?

 

 

GW changed how the models go together. They did that, so it's their fault. Now, whether or not they care, or if posability was even on their mind, is a separate issue.

Of course they changed them. They had to change scale and they gave them more detail. It shocks me that people are defending the old squat legged kits. How many ways can you pose a Marine that has his Bolter up against his chest? They served their purpose for quite some time but the kit is dated and it really shows.

 

Give the new one a chance. It may take a little more time to assemble at first, but once they're together it's quite rewarding, they look great. Trust me, I'm a Death Guard player and wasn't too thrilled with their kits at first either and sometimes it took a couple sessions of sitting down to finish them due to time constraints, but at the end of the day they're in a completely different class than the old ones.

 

 

We could pose them a lot of ways and make them look very distinctive because we could combine them with literally any other oldMarine kit. 

 

Rogue Iron Hands element from the Heresy? No problem - MKII, MKIIIs, Medusan Immortals, Finecast upgrade kit, and the CSM kit.

Space Wolves turned Red Corsairs? No problem - a mix of Space Wolf kits, CSMs, and whatever else you like. Add some SW pelts etc.

Word Bearers? No problem - maybe some older marks and Cult marine bits, take some bits from the Possessed kit etc.

 

Sure, we can still technically do all those things, but it requires a much higher level of skill, a saw, and greenstuff, making it much less accessible for most people.