The Warp vs The Supernatural

[Kilofix]

So reading Maledictions and The Wicked And The Damned has me wondering. Can the Warp and the Supernatural be two different things in 40K or are they inextricably linked? Can there be spirits or ghosts and / or hauntings that are separate from the Warp?

 

I was originally thinking no, because there is no afterlife, in the traditional sense, in 40K. But maybe there are ways a departed soul can be tethered in such a way that it haunts a location or object. Like Eldar have soul stones.

 

But maybe that would be just another hitch on an otherwise continuous scale between the physical world and the Warp.

 

On a related note where do Blessings come from in 40K?

 

Ruminations? Just curious.

[Panzer]

Everything supernatural ever in 40k has been linked to either the warp or technology that's beyond the understanding of the setting. Would be weird if they suddenly change that. It's not like AoS where magic and the warp are two separate things. ^^

Blessings in 40k are just the warp affecting the material realm by huge amounts of believe/faith. Like a group of cultists can summon daemons without a single psyker in the group just by doing what pleases said chaos god enough etc, mortals with enough faith can get blessings from the emperor. It's just that psyker have a stronger connection to the warp so they can actually force the warp to do what they want.

[Quantum]

There is no supernatural, only natural that we do not fully understand yet .

 

But it is very hard to answer your questions, because what the warp and all phenomena related to it can do is basically limited only by what the plot demands. Our own physical universe can already be very counterintuitive (Quantum Mechanics for example), so something like the warp may have such differents physical laws that our Newtonian Mechanics oriented brain simply cannot grasp it, let alone understand it.

 

We only have some rules-of-thumb that seem to be broadly acknowledged for the setting (until, if the plot demands, they are not; the warp is fickle): Humans and most sentient species have a soul/warp presence that can interact with the warp. The stronger the presence, the stronger the individual is in manipulating the warp. Real space and the warp are nominally separated, but this separation is thin and can become even thinner or even breached outright.

 

So a place where the separation between realspace and the warp is particularly thin may experience psychic phenomena (without experiencing a full-blown daemonic invasion). Phychic residue of long-dead mortals may leak through in these locations, causing hauntings.

 

Belief and faith are strong powers in the warp, as it allows mortals even with little warp presence to cause ripples in the warp that spill out into realspace (or draw the attention of some great power in the warp), with groups of faithful having a cumulative effect.

 

Of course, the physicist in me loves to muse about the mechanics of the Warp (yes, therein lies madness, I know. Bwuhahaha!), but the only definite conclusion I can draw is that, since realspace and the warp can interact, they are not fully separate realities (if they were, observers in one reality would not, could not, be able to observe the other reality), but part of a larger 'super-reality'. Like two sides of a coin. Or two facets on a multi-facetted diamond...

 

Bwahahah!

 

Hope this helps. Now, I need to get back to making Moore's Law a reality and achieve a Technological Singularity.

 

With regards,

 

'Quantum' Moravec.

 

*maniacal laughter*

[Lay]

Isn't that what the C'tan are? I imagine there's an infinite number of supernatural phenomena in the setting but just like minor alien civilizations they're just too small to get the spotlight.

[MegaVolt87]

A ghost/spirit to me in 30k/40k is a daemon wilfully tormenting someone with their own guilt, regrets and sadness. For fear, they just do their individual daemon things. Supernatural tropes like the possessed doll Annabelle translate well into the lore IMO. 

 

EDIT- Warp phenomena are classified as supernatural by people in setting who don't know what the warp, chaos etc is anyway. 

[Panzer]

In the short story Redeemer (about Astorath) there's a planet with some weird xenos that are implied to be heavily influenced by the opening of the great rift. In short they are very ghost-y by that they only appear in peoples nightmares, basically stalking them until after days of nightmares they are actually there and kill them (whether they actually manifested or always have been there but invisible is not revealed). Lots of room for speculations left since the happenings of that short story are only a the end of what happened on the planet but it would serves as a great setting for a supernatural horror story. ^^

[Kilofix]

So for discussions sake, if Person A kills Person B, and Person B comes back as a ghost to haunt Person A - it’s really just Person B’s Warp echo right? But it wouldn’t technically be considered a daemon?

[Lexington]

In general, I doubt you’d get anything besides “it’s the warp” as a canonical explanation from the modern, IP-focused GW. That said, I think the first 40K source I ever encountered (2nd Ed’s immortal Codex: Imperialis) mentioned the warp was just one of many alternate dimensions that interacted with our own reality. So, the idea isn’t completely without precedent.

[Quantum]

TL;DR: Yes, a ghost is probably someones warp echo and not a daemon, but the nature of warp means daemons and warp echos have a lot in common.

 

Like Lexington says, there is few canonical facts and truths about the warp. If a certain explaination makes sense to you, it is just as valid as any other explaination. The 40k lore does occasionally state that it is best not to think too much about the nature of the warp; therin lies madness, corruption, spawndom and (if you do it right) daemonhood. 

 

But to answer your question the way I see it, first I must look into another question:

 

What exactly is a daemon?

 

The generally accepted explaination is that when mortals experience emotions they cause ripples/movement/disturbance in the warp, most likely via their warp presence/soul (conjecture: emotions trigger unconscious changes/alterations/shifts in a mortals warp presence, which is transmitted to the enveloping warp medium). Most such ripples simply disappate/disappear/lose energy in the medium of the warp, but many similar emotions can combine and coalesce into something greater (conjecture: the warp-medium has wave like properties, and similar emotion experience Bose-Einstein like statistics), until at some point they form something that is self-sustaining (conjecture: deamons are vortices in the warp medium, which has properties of hyperfluidity), and even conscious.

 

So damons are basically constructs that accumulated around an emotion, although it is generally assumed that the stronger and more sentient the daemon, it represents more aspects around its 'base' emotion (rebuttal: then why are all bloodthirsters such hot-headed maniacs? Not a cold-blooded backstabber among them). So a nurgling probably represents a single emotion (say, for arguments sake, fear of disease and death) and is basically mindless, and a Great Unclean One could be very intelligent, and represents a whole range of related emotions (fear of disease and death, misery, dispair, resignation & acceptance, cynicism, black humor, etc...).

 

But what exactly a soul is is less well defined. All we know for sure it that it its linked to the material universe through the mortal body, and when the body dies the human soul exists for a little while longer in the warp until it disappears (conjecture: a human soul needs to be maintained/supplied with energy by input from the material realm). However, there are hints that St Celestine somehow lived on in the warp, and Aeldari souls wouldn't disappear at all and would be reincarnated, if Slaanesh wouldn't eat them (rebuttal: why are spykers, with their significant warp presence, no more elligible to form ghosts than other mortals?).

 

I think we can also divide ghosts into two catagories: 

 

A 'limited ghost' (this is conjecture, no canonical proof available) could be a residue of someones soul that somehow has not completely disappated into the warp. Effectively, they are a limited part of a presumably very complex soul, probably centered around a single value, emotion, wish or desire of the mortal at his time of death. They instinctively hang on to what was familiar to their mortal form in life, but are not really the conscious, complex individuals they once were. 

 

A 'full ghost' (again conjecture) is a soul that despite the demise of the mortal body managed to keep itself together. They are as conscious and sound of mind as possible without having an actual body.

 

So there are differences between daemons and ghosts, but also similarities. For starters, they both inhabit the warp. Presumably, the warp medium that make up the vortices that form daemons also make up the souls/warp presence of mortals, but most are too weak to be self-sustaining without input/energy/sensation/thought from the physical universe. But that would still mean the underlying mechanics are the same.

 

However, daemons form around a single emotion and grow from there, while a ghost started as a fully-fledged individual and retained at least part of itself after the body died. (conjecture: a limited ghost that maintains a powerful emotion can coalesce with similar emotions, forming a self-sustaining vortex; i.e. a ghost can be the seed of a daemon).

 

As a side note, it is interesting to consider what happens if a mortal dies and his soul is dedicated to a certain cause or diety (or claimed by it). A zealous ministorum priests who gives his life for the Emperor, a chaos follower whose soul is claimed by his patron at death, an Aeldari soul not catched by a spirit stone and consumed by Slaanesh. Presumably, the soul is absorbed fully, the full energy of its dynamic warp presence used by the patron to make itself more energetic/powerful. However, those souls have a far wider range of emotions than typically attributed to daemons (conjecture: except loonies like Khârn, most likely), so their contribution will make their patron more complex in turn (conjecture: Chaos Gods may even pick up aspects that right now seem contrary or even alien to their very being. Khorne may be a swell guy in a couple million years...).

 

Hope this helps.

 

...Why do I suddenly have the urge to draw occult symbols everywhere?

[StruManChu]

It might be worth jumping in and pointing out that a number of BL novels offer a glimpse of an afterlife for loyal Imperial citizens, notably Straight Silver and Imperial Glory. Given the third-person omniscient narrator perspective of both of these books, you could argue that there is canonical evidence for life after death outside of having your soul torn apart by Chaos things in the Warp.

[Slasher956]

TL;DR: Yes, a ghost is probably someones warp echo and not a daemon, but the nature of warp means daemons and warp echos have a lot in common.

 

Like Lexington says, there is few canonical facts and truths about the warp. If a certain explaination makes sense to you, it is just as valid as any other explaination. The 40k lore does occasionally state that it is best not to think too much about the nature of the warp; therin lies madness, corruption, spawndom and (if you do it right) daemonhood. 

 

But to answer your question the way I see it, first I must look into another question:

 

What exactly is a daemon?

 

The generally accepted explaination is that when mortals experience emotions they cause ripples/movement/disturbance in the warp, most likely via their warp presence/soul (conjecture: emotions trigger unconscious changes/alterations/shifts in a mortals warp presence, which is transmitted to the enveloping warp medium). Most such ripples simply disappate/disappear/lose energy in the medium of the warp, but many similar emotions can combine and coalesce into something greater (conjecture: the warp-medium has wave like properties, and similar emotion experience Bose-Einstein like statistics), until at some point they form something that is self-sustaining (conjecture: deamons are vortices in the warp medium, which has properties of hyperfluidity), and even conscious.

 

So damons are basically constructs that accumulated around an emotion, although it is generally assumed that the stronger and more sentient the daemon, it represents more aspects around its 'base' emotion (rebuttal: then why are all bloodthirsters such hot-headed maniacs? Not a cold-blooded backstabber among them). So a nurgling probably represents a single emotion (say, for arguments sake, fear of disease and death) and is basically mindless, and a Great Unclean One could be very intelligent, and represents a whole range of related emotions (fear of disease and death, misery, dispair, resignation & acceptance, cynicism, black humor, etc...).

 

But what exactly a soul is is less well defined. All we know for sure it that it its linked to the material universe through the mortal body, and when the body dies the human soul exists for a little while longer in the warp until it disappears (conjecture: a human soul needs to be maintained/supplied with energy by input from the material realm). However, there are hints that St Celestine somehow lived on in the warp, and Aeldari souls wouldn't disappear at all and would be reincarnated, if Slaanesh wouldn't eat them (rebuttal: why are spykers, with their significant warp presence, no more elligible to form ghosts than other mortals?).

 

I think we can also divide ghosts into two catagories: 

 

A 'limited ghost' (this is conjecture, no canonical proof available) could be a residue of someones soul that somehow has not completely disappated into the warp. Effectively, they are a limited part of a presumably very complex soul, probably centered around a single value, emotion, wish or desire of the mortal at his time of death. They instinctively hang on to what was familiar to their mortal form in life, but are not really the conscious, complex individuals they once were. 

 

A 'full ghost' (again conjecture) is a soul that despite the demise of the mortal body managed to keep itself together. They are as conscious and sound of mind as possible without having an actual body.

 

So there are differences between daemons and ghosts, but also similarities. For starters, they both inhabit the warp. Presumably, the warp medium that make up the vortices that form daemons also make up the souls/warp presence of mortals, but most are too weak to be self-sustaining without input/energy/sensation/thought from the physical universe. But that would still mean the underlying mechanics are the same.

 

However, daemons form around a single emotion and grow from there, while a ghost started as a fully-fledged individual and retained at least part of itself after the body died. (conjecture: a limited ghost that maintains a powerful emotion can coalesce with similar emotions, forming a self-sustaining vortex; i.e. a ghost can be the seed of a daemon).

 

As a side note, it is interesting to consider what happens if a mortal dies and his soul is dedicated to a certain cause or diety (or claimed by it). A zealous ministorum priests who gives his life for the Emperor, a chaos follower whose soul is claimed by his patron at death, an Aeldari soul not catched by a spirit stone and consumed by Slaanesh. Presumably, the soul is absorbed fully, the full energy of its dynamic warp presence used by the patron to make itself more energetic/powerful. However, those souls have a far wider range of emotions than typically attributed to daemons (conjecture: except loonies like Khârn, most likely), so their contribution will make their patron more complex in turn (conjecture: Chaos Gods may even pick up aspects that right now seem contrary or even alien to their very being. Khorne may be a swell guy in a couple million years...).

 

Hope this helps.

 

...Why do I suddenly have the urge to draw occult symbols everywhere?

 

Some supporting points: The confessor of the Word Bearers in the HH series lives in the warp after she is killed by the Custodes, until she is brought back by Errabus.

Harlequinns dont need soul stones as (with the exception of the Solitare) their souls are guarded by the trickster god (forget his name) 3rd Ed(and older) fluff....

 

One of the Esienhorn short stories has an alchamist mix a warp tainted paint that caused people to die of fright hours after their picture was taken

[Panzer]

I guess if enough people with proper warp presence believe in something like an afterlife and/or create a warp entity to protect them they don't have to be at the mercy of daemons after they die (however long it might take to get ones soul ripped apart) and if that belief includes ways for the dead to come back to the mortal real in form of ghosts and such that might be possible as well.

Knowing faith and cultural beliefs forms beings, rules and whole 'worlds' in the warp it's literally make believe. ^^

[Quantum]

Also keep in mind that the ghost/disembodies warp presences of most (non-psyker) deceased mortals are probably protected from deamonic predation by the simple fact that their warp presence is too insignificant to be detected by daemons, much like non-psykers are very unlikely to be possessed by daemons. Especially if human souls eventually disappate into the warp medium. 

 

Even moreso, before the fall the Aeldari could remain intact in the warp before being reborn into the material universe. Even then the Aeldari were a very psychic race, and even then the warp was turbulent where 3 major chaos gods and their respective damons existed, yet no lore exist to indicate they were back then particularly concerned with daemonic predators finding and devouring them.

 

Marks of Chaos on chaos followers are possibly not just intended to mark a soul as belonging to a specific god, but also to make sure the god can actually find it when it is released from its mortal shell.

 

And what exactly does it mean that a soul is 'devoured' or 'ripped apart' by a daemon? When daemons enter realspace and gain a (somewhat) physical form and mind, their shape and temperament will match with the form mortals attribute to the emotion that drives it (i.e. daemons have a particular shape because mortals as a whole, on average, believe it should look like that). So when a manifested daemon is asked what it does with a soul, it will not (indeed perhaps could not as it is not part of its being) give a factual account, but rather a nightmarish description that matches its essence.

 

From a purely mechanical standpoint, I suspect a daemon 'devouring' a mortal soul is more alike a hurricane absorbing a smaller storm, or a large and small galaxy merging into one, than that of a predator and helpless prey.  

[Arkangilos]

There is an afterlife, by the way. The Black Crusade rpg sourcebooks goes into each realm of the chaos gods and how each of the souls can find itself in them, and what life is like in them for the souls that find themselves there.

[Panzer]

Also keep in mind that the ghost/disembodies warp presences of most (non-psyker) deceased mortals are probably protected from deamonic predation by the simple fact that their warp presence is too insignificant to be detected by daemons, much like non-psykers are very unlikely to be possessed by daemons. Especially if human souls eventually disappate into the warp medium. 

 

Even moreso, before the fall the Aeldari could remain intact in the warp before being reborn into the material universe. Even then the Aeldari were a very psychic race, and even then the warp was turbulent where 3 major chaos gods and their respective damons existed, yet no lore exist to indicate they were back then particularly concerned with daemonic predators finding and devouring them.

 

 

I'd actually say a bigger warp presence makes it more likely for a soul to persist after death as it can "defend itself". That way it would make sense how the Eldar could survive and otherwise the warp would be full with minor souls like T'au and many other xenos races.

[Kilofix]

All the above has given me quite some to think about. I suppose that part of the problem with linking the supernatural with the Warp is, to borrow a phrase, “We have seen such horrors before”. But I guess that’s not completely true. While we know of Bloodletters and Plague Bearers, etc., there’s still an unlimited scope to be explored / expanded on. Hopefully the Warhammer Horror novels continue to push this. Anyway, just thinking out loud.

[MegaVolt87]

My head cannon is weak souls are destroyed, warp echoes of such individuals are used by daemons that consumed the soul to torment those in the material relm that played a part in the victims demise. Every other case is just daemons doing daemon things, codified as supernatural to those who don't understand the warp and the nature of chaos.