Greater daemon issues

[WickedJester1013]

On the subject of greater daemons, what makes them lack luster on the table top? Is it that every one expects a knight so dealing with a greater daemon is easy compared? Or is it a fundamental issue with the big nasties then selves?

What would have to change(in the meta or their rules) to actually make them a great pick?

[Panzer]

They aren't much tougher than most tanks and want to be in melee, so they usually die against the usual anti-tank before being able to do anything.

 

There's no big secret for why they aren't competetive. ^^

[Ulfast]

But what could GW do to make them better? Lower points for two, make them better in survival, more damage? Or any other ideas?

[Panzer]

More wounds mainly. They need something to facetank all the anti-vehicle alpha strike since it's impossible to prevent it unless you want to pay CP and hide the GD in reserves until you've dealt with the anti-tank. Which is easier said than done considering daemons are mostly footslogging melee plus the GD is melee as well so it's unlikely for it to do anything the turn it arrives too.

[dice4thedicegod]

In bigger games (1500 to 2000) i view taking 1 bloodthirster as my “here, shoot this instead of the rest of my army” gambit.

It’s big, scary looking and doesn’t cost too many points if it saves the rest of the army that I actually have a plan to win the game with.

 

If you actually want to get them into melee, better take multiple.

[Panzer]

The problem with that strategy is that it's mostly anti-tank weaponry that targets the GD and aside of the GD it wouldn't have any other proper targets in a pure daemon army. Yeah sure shoot your Lascannon at my Seekers or Daemonettes, I don't care. ^^

[dice4thedicegod]

The problem with that strategy is that it's mostly anti-tank weaponry that targets the GD and aside of the GD it wouldn't have any other proper targets in a pure daemon army? Yeah sure shoot your Lascannon at my Seekers or Daemonettes, I don't care. ^^

Yeah, I guess I am thinking of my “daemons as allied contingent to chaos space marines”

[WickedJester1013]

What about a damage reduction trait? Like -1 damage for 3 damage and below, and minus 2 damage for d6. Something along those lines?

[dice4thedicegod]

Asking for a greater daemon to be as durable as an aeldari transport? Crazy talk!

[Khornestar]

I maintain that only being able to have a 4+ invulnerable save rather than 3+ was a bad move. But some things are abused with combos, and a heavy-handed nerf applied across the board killed that option.

[WickedJester1013]

So the issue seams to be with defense, what about the offense? Are the big nasties, well actually nasty when they work?

[Panzer]

Yeah they hit well enough if they get the chance.

[Armchairarbiter]

I have a Slaanesh centered focus so I am not sure about everyone else but I find the issue with their defense is that they have such a garbage "normal" save against small arms fire. A mass of bolter fire with a lucky roll has the potential to remove a lot of wounds from a GD, in combination with wounds lost from the anti-tank fire. 

 

Maybe the BT and big bird are a bit tougher than my Keeper though... but I think a similar problem exists regardless. I think they should have a much better "normal" armor save. 3-4+ regular, then the 5+ on top can work and warp surge can be kind of worth it maybe? 

 

Maybe my experience is just different.  

[dice4thedicegod]

I have a Slaanesh centered focus so I am not sure about everyone else but I find the issue with their defense is that they have such a garbage "normal" save against small arms fire. A mass of bolter fire with a lucky roll has the potential to remove a lot of wounds from a GD, in combination with wounds lost from the anti-tank fire.

 

Maybe the BT and big bird are a bit tougher than my Keeper though... but I think a similar problem exists regardless. I think they should have a much better "normal" armor save. 3-4+ regular, then the 5+ on top can work and warp surge can be kind of worth it maybe?

 

Maybe my experience is just different.

Yeah, the base save on a KoS, along with the str versus toughness rules, makes it very vulnerable to bolter fire.

 

Fun fact, on average a land raider crusader is actually going to do more damage to a keeper of secrets than a regular land raider. (Only like, 6% more, but still!)

[Marshlands]

After the massive point drops I've found them pretty effective, i played a competitive 3k list of mostly greater daemons and they did really well. That worked through saturation though, piecemeal they're just mid range defensive units that aren't difficult to kill