Morticon Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 The Smash-Cap with Wings and Artisan (or alternatively Soul Warden) is one of our big "go-to" units for position of Warlord. Occasionally the Libby dread may even take this mantle and grab Artisan too. However, I would like to offer players an alternative that I believe is not only exceptionally powerful, but ideally suited to BA. The Vanguard WL trait "Princeps of Deceipt" is EXCEPTIONAL. In essence, for those that are unaware, the trait allows you to redeploy up to 3 <CHAPTER> infantry units before the first turn has begun - the same wording as when Forlorn happens - so after seize. **** BA SPECIFIC VALUE**** As some of you will have seen, I've been working with hyper-aggressive armies. BA's strength as a chapter/rules-set obviously lies in our ability to get into combat. So, while other SM units may use this to reposition key units like devastators or vehicles, I believe the opportunity to redeploy Scouts is DEADLY. If you're not playing CA18 set up (or even if you are, and waiting for the seize) you can deploy 3 units of scouts aggressively or defensively. Then, based on who goes first, you can redeploy those Scouts to either protect them, or throw them head-first into the enemy lines. In a "one-one-one" style deployment with a +1 to see who goes first, deploying scouts can be a gamble. With this ability, their safety is assured, and your tactics can be easily adapted and factored, rather than retroactively considered. I may even change things up in my tourney list because of this!! Will have to see though. What are your thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 I know Infiltrators are basically double the points but I think they have a place in BA armies. Maybe two squads of Infiltrators and one squad of Scouts... I think it make this tactic even more powerful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5293962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 Their multiwound, 3+ profile makes them very very partial to Ancient Banner support. Just wish they did more for their cost :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5293966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hintzy Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 I see a lot of value in that WL trait as well. As somebody who enjoys Forlorn Fury'ing a big blob of DC up the board, or even just a single DVoS Captain, the ability to redeploy could be exceptionally valuable. Not only could you move from one side of the board to the other, but you could, based on the wording, put your DC back into deep strike if you get seized on. Once I cave and buy one of the Vanguard characters (Librarian probably) I plan on deploying both my DC and my Captain and then moving the one with the best target to an optimal spot and putting the other back in the sky. If not just putting both back in the sky if I'm seized on. At this point I'm leaning towards the Librarian because the psychic powers seem interesting at the very least if not fairly useful. The last three primarily. The Master of the Vanguard trait seems worth a mention as well. Again on the Librarian, this time with the move again power for himself. He'd move/advance an average of 11 inches in both the move and psychic phase (barring a DTW), making it reasonably reliable to get the charge buff where you needed it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5293970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slothysaur Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 I'm incredibly c9nservative when using my captain smash and generally don't make him my WL. As such I've been waffling around between Princeps and the trait that lets you select a unit to hit on a 2+ on a selected enemy unit. I absolutely agree that scouts will get the most mileage from the redeploy and am considering a mix of m 2 melee and 1 bolter scout squads for the role. These guys combined with the amount of pressure we can put in turn 1 with Wings libby dread / 3D6 charge stratagem and UWoF will give opponents a very hard choice to make. If you don't get 1st turn or are seized on you just pull the scouts back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5293972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Their multiwound, 3+ profile makes them very very partial to Ancient Banner support. Just wish they did more for their cost :/ Enemy units cannot deploy as reinforcements within less than 12". That’s huge, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 Their multiwound, 3+ profile makes them very very partial to Ancient Banner support. Just wish they did more for their cost :/ Enemy units cannot deploy as reinforcements within less than 12". That’s huge, Your thoughts on its in game application? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Princeps of Deceit really is great and I'll definitely try it out on my new Vanguard Librarian. Not with Scouts or Infiltrators though as I don't have those in my army. Thing is with the new missions, if you deploy second the trait is completely useless. I'm kinda expecting myself to end up with the +1 to-hit trait most of the time after playing around with both for a while. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majkhel Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Enemy units cannot deploy as reinforcements within less than 12". That’s huge, At that their current cost I would take them only if I know I'm facing a potential deep-striker and probably a 5-model MSU. 110pts I could spare. 230(198 without the Helix Adept) - not so sure. Then I would preferably hide them outside LOS to maximize their nuisanceness in a crucial place, protecting a castle formation or some other vital back field asset. What do you think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Their multiwound, 3+ profile makes them very very partial to Ancient Banner support. Just wish they did more for their cost :/Enemy units cannot deploy as reinforcements within less than 12". That’s huge, Your thoughts on its in game application? It is a potentially valuable ability but very situational. It will cripple some armies like Daemon bombs, impede armies like Da Jump Orks and some flavours of Nids & GSCs and do little or nothing against armies like Imperial Soup and Eldar. Infiltrators are interesting on paper and you will definitely get games where they can shine. BUT, they pay quite a lot for abilities that are only useful sometimes and they lose out in range and lethality against cheaper Intercessors. They cost twice as many points as Scouts. While they are twice as durable, they are not twice as lethal. To my mind, they over-pay for situational abilities. I would want to see them under 20 points per model before I would consider them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slothysaur Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Princeps of Deceit really is great and I'll definitely try it out on my new Vanguard Librarian. Not with Scouts or Infiltrators though as I don't have those in my army. Thing is with the new missions, if you deploy second the trait is completely useless. I'm kinda expecting myself to end up with the +1 to-hit trait most of the time after playing around with both for a while. Food for thought, you could still deploy aggressively and hope to seize. Not that I would count on it, but since this trait is picked before you know if you're going 1st or second at least you can still use it. Just have to pray to the dice God. Either way, you raise an excellent point; I didn't consider the new CA deployment rules at all! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaese Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Princeps of Deceit really is great and I'll definitely try it out on my new Vanguard Librarian. Not with Scouts or Infiltrators though as I don't have those in my army. Thing is with the new missions, if you deploy second the trait is completely useless. I'm kinda expecting myself to end up with the +1 to-hit trait most of the time after playing around with both for a while. Food for thought, you could still deploy aggressively and hope to seize. Not that I would count on it, but since this trait is picked before you know if you're going 1st or second at least you can still use it. Just have to pray to the dice God. Either way, you raise an excellent point; I didn't consider the new CA deployment rules at all! It's not completely useless, if you use it for 6 units. Deploy 3 units defensive and 3 units aggressive positions. This way you can have 6 units in offensive positions if you get to go first, or 6 units in defensive positions if you go second. Pretty strong IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Princeps of Deceit really is great and I'll definitely try it out on my new Vanguard Librarian. Not with Scouts or Infiltrators though as I don't have those in my army. Thing is with the new missions, if you deploy second the trait is completely useless. I'm kinda expecting myself to end up with the +1 to-hit trait most of the time after playing around with both for a while. Food for thought, you could still deploy aggressively and hope to seize. Not that I would count on it, but since this trait is picked before you know if you're going 1st or second at least you can still use it. Just have to pray to the dice God. Either way, you raise an excellent point; I didn't consider the new CA deployment rules at all! It's not completely useless, if you use it for 6 units. Deploy 3 units defensive and 3 units aggressive positions. This way you can have 6 units in offensive positions if you get to go first, or 6 units in defensive positions if you go second. Pretty strong IMO You misunderstand. In the new missions the players deploy their whole army at once. So if you go second your opponent has already deployed everything and you can already deploy accordingly without needing any such shenanigans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 My meta armies like GSC and daemonbombs are quite popular so they are solid good here. Being able to see how your opponent deploys then redeploy could have its uses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaese Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Princeps of Deceit really is great and I'll definitely try it out on my new Vanguard Librarian. Not with Scouts or Infiltrators though as I don't have those in my army. Thing is with the new missions, if you deploy second the trait is completely useless. I'm kinda expecting myself to end up with the +1 to-hit trait most of the time after playing around with both for a while. Food for thought, you could still deploy aggressively and hope to seize. Not that I would count on it, but since this trait is picked before you know if you're going 1st or second at least you can still use it. Just have to pray to the dice God. Either way, you raise an excellent point; I didn't consider the new CA deployment rules at all! It's not completely useless, if you use it for 6 units. Deploy 3 units defensive and 3 units aggressive positions. This way you can have 6 units in offensive positions if you get to go first, or 6 units in defensive positions if you go second. Pretty strong IMO You misunderstand. In the new missions the players deploy their whole army at once. So if you go second your opponent has already deployed everything and you can already deploy accordingly without needing any such shenanigans. You still don't know who has the first turn with the CA deployment rules. This allows you to plan offensive and defensive deployment for 6 units. Probably not the best warlord trait there is, but it gives you options even if you deploy second. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Princeps of Deceit really is great and I'll definitely try it out on my new Vanguard Librarian. Not with Scouts or Infiltrators though as I don't have those in my army. Thing is with the new missions, if you deploy second the trait is completely useless. I'm kinda expecting myself to end up with the +1 to-hit trait most of the time after playing around with both for a while. Food for thought, you could still deploy aggressively and hope to seize. Not that I would count on it, but since this trait is picked before you know if you're going 1st or second at least you can still use it. Just have to pray to the dice God. Either way, you raise an excellent point; I didn't consider the new CA deployment rules at all! It's not completely useless, if you use it for 6 units. Deploy 3 units defensive and 3 units aggressive positions. This way you can have 6 units in offensive positions if you get to go first, or 6 units in defensive positions if you go second. Pretty strong IMO You misunderstand. In the new missions the players deploy their whole army at once. So if you go second your opponent has already deployed everything and you can already deploy accordingly without needing any such shenanigans. You still don't know who has the first turn with the CA deployment rules. This allows you to plan offensive and defensive deployment for 6 units. Probably not the best warlord trait there is, but it gives you options even if you deploy second. You do because that dictates who gets to deploy first (or rather, knowing who gets to deploy first dictates who gets first turn). The only uncertain thing is the roll to seize initiative. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaese Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Princeps of Deceit really is great and I'll definitely try it out on my new Vanguard Librarian. Not with Scouts or Infiltrators though as I don't have those in my army. Thing is with the new missions, if you deploy second the trait is completely useless. I'm kinda expecting myself to end up with the +1 to-hit trait most of the time after playing around with both for a while. Food for thought, you could still deploy aggressively and hope to seize. Not that I would count on it, but since this trait is picked before you know if you're going 1st or second at least you can still use it. Just have to pray to the dice God. Either way, you raise an excellent point; I didn't consider the new CA deployment rules at all! It's not completely useless, if you use it for 6 units. Deploy 3 units defensive and 3 units aggressive positions. This way you can have 6 units in offensive positions if you get to go first, or 6 units in defensive positions if you go second. Pretty strong IMO You misunderstand. In the new missions the players deploy their whole army at once. So if you go second your opponent has already deployed everything and you can already deploy accordingly without needing any such shenanigans. You still don't know who has the first turn with the CA deployment rules. This allows you to plan offensive and defensive deployment for 6 units. Probably not the best warlord trait there is, but it gives you options even if you deploy second. You do because that dictates who gets to deploy first (or rather, knowing who gets to deploy first dictates who gets first turn). The only uncertain thing is the roll to seize initiative. Seize is exactly the problem. Before the chances of going first were about 50:50, so you deployed accordingly. Now you "know" if you go first or second, and can deploy accordingly. This makes the seize roll even more important than it was before. In some cases it might even be the most important roll of the game. Princeps of deceit is a good way to limit the impact that seize roll has on the game. So I definitely don't see it as a bad choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Yeah but you are banking on a single 6+ roll here to get any use out of it. I never denied that it has its use in case of a seize but there are several better traits in that case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted April 11, 2019 Author Share Posted April 11, 2019 It's a solid point. The difficulty, too in this regard is that you choose your trait before you roll - so in the CA18 missions.....its a lot less valuable as noted. I think i'd still really like the opportunity to redeploy forlorn smashy to a better position along with some others in the event of seize. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 Mort if you’re up against an alpha strike army like dark eldar it could be rock solid . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355197-vanguard-warlord/#findComment-5294585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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