The Siege of Terra: The Lost and the Damned

[Izlude]

Power levels aside (always a fun scenario in any case I am about 60 pages in and enjoying it. I have read some of the overall impressions while trying to avoid specific spoilers. I'll update this as I read more and just giving general impressions. 

 

General Impression (may change as I read more): I agree with most that it is overall good but not Solar Wars good. Having just reread Solar Wars for this one, you can clearly tell the complexity is different. As a whole, Solar Wars was tight, consistent and just did a fantastic job to set up the siege despite some of the hand waving warp stuff which is obviously the theme. Some things do stand out to me as little sloppy with the second book and not really blaming anyone:

 

1. Vulkan: People who read Kyme's third book, Old Earth, knows exactly the fate of Vulkan and who he sits with on the ride over to the palace setting up his role in the siege. Flash forward to the second book with all the Primarchs chatting it up with the fate of Vulkan coming up. Wow...like huge oversight with Dorn's comments. I have read previous comments that he was "faking" his surprise but honestly having read it a few times...not buying it. Definitely a pretty big oversight. I haven't reached the Thane parts...but looking forward to that. For what it's worth I can see the Thane thing happening, I honestly didn't pick up on it initially when people made comments but the Vulkan thing is like super obvious. Didn't Old Earth just come out within the past year or so? So it's not some tibbet buried in another timeline like TBA or like 40 books ago. It just made that whole scene sort of painful. Which leads me too...

 

2. Primarch interactions: So in the early stages we have our Primarchs in a room talking strategy and wishing Guilliman was here faster, that Lion wasn't being a DURP doing his own thing etc. One of the things I look for in this series is when Primarchs interact with each other, it is one of my favorite aspects of this series, sort of like watch gods talking to each other. I think the authors that do it well do it in a way that seems like they are above regular humans but relatable in someway. Not here...they seemed totally human with their reactions. Especially when Malcador "sheds the light" on the warp...it just seemed so forced and it was clear Haley was trying to essentially explain away all the warp stuff since the beginning of time in those few pages...was too much. Which leads me too yet another point...

 

3. Valdor: Totally looking forward to Wraight's book by the way. So the Valdor I recall best is from ADB's book on the Emperor and I really like his depiction of the Captain-general. He is aloof, dedicated only to the emperor, and shows obvious distain to the Primarchs who he clearly views as inferior/the cause of all this. Maybe it changes later in this book since I am only 50-60 pages in but the Valdor is clearly a side act, is way to polite, referring to the Primarchs as "my lords" and stuff. I was hoping he would be a stronger voice and dress down the Primarchs...not many beings can get away with this...Valdor is one of the few that can!

 

About half way through the book now:

 

1. The lost the damned: So being half way via, you get glimpses of what it was like right up until the siege from both traitor and loyalist "regulars." I have to say I really enjoyed these parts. I think after reading the afterword and now sort of get where Haley is coming from I do like where this was taken. I will admit after reading Solar Wars where you get alot of SM stuff with little human stuff I was expecting the same thing here. At least half way via it was more about the initial landings with millions of cannon fodder. I really like this, esp the beastman bits, sort of made you feel sorry for them and how they were manipulated to serve as fodder...although they did some arse kicking. I am picturing the beastman type things from WHF? 

 

2. Cameos: As Haley mentioned in his afterword, he brought in some characters for what seems like cameos, like Vethorel from Binary Suc, Esha from Titandeath, and Ashul/Myzmadra from French's PoD. The latter pair were some of the memorable ones and I loved the flashback of Myzmadra. Her conversation in her flashback was really neat and well done. I also liked how Haley used Ashul in the story so far, definitely was a small surprise what role he was playing.

 

3. Horus: One thing I really love that Haley has done is setting up Abaddon's growing distaste for Horus and that it is becoming more clear that Horus's time is limited, not really for the loyalist rushing back (although that must play a small role) but he is a walking lightning rod...about to burn out so he needs to act and act fast. The biatch fest between the other traitor primarchs is always good times. 

 

4. The Aegis Shield: I am not sure if this was more of a recent thing added to the cannon, but I do like this being the primary defense that the traitor has to tackle to get via. It sort of makes sense since without it the traitors would just bomb the hell out of the palace (although Horus sort of implies he is not taking out the E by nuking Terra). I also like how it is an imperfect device and that Perturbo is able to find the holes (of course...who else). You get the sense of urgency as holes are being found and the traitors sacrificial lambs are getting via. So close that Raldaron see this first hand. On that note, I do find it odd that Thane doesn't play much of a role in the defenses thus far, reporting to Raldaron seems odd since you would think a IF would be better at this even though Raldaron is essential second to Sanguinius. Maybe this will change?

 

About 75% done:

 

1. Legions and Primarchs: Now we're talking! About past the half way point, the hummie stuff takes a backride to make room for some serious Legion and Primarch stuff. I have to say thus far it is very well done and I think Haley did a great job. In particular:

 

-Angron and World eaters: Of course they want to be the first one to kick some arse but for reasons in the book they don't and they all get...hmm...Khorne angry...shocking I know. I really like the glimpse we get with Khârn and Lotara. I love the plan they come up with to keep Angron "occupied" until the Terra is ready for demon fun. And yes that bit about the Thramas crusade with the World eaters is a small but super obvious mistake...come on editors it is like mixing up who won the Battle of Zama and who won the battle of Cannae...

 

-Khan: I think Haley did real justice to the Khan and the decisions he makes. It is very much in line with him and his legion. It also sets up probably what will be a future book for Wraight with what we know what the role the White Scars play in the Siege. 

 

-Sanguinius: I know Sanguinius has had it rough with the way people have portrayed him. It is tough to do him justice without having him being a Debbie downer all the time. I liked how he is depicted here, he is noble but still wracked with his fate but ponders if there is a way to avoid it. I actually loved the part with him out with the troops which is depicted on the coverart (which is pretty sweet).

 

-Katsuhiro Arc: It is definitely getting more interesting with the events related to him and so interested to see where this goes....maybe he just trips off the wall and dies... Haley has done a great job with setting him up via the story as some regular Joe caught up in the events. The other human story was also well done (although brief) and touching. He did a similar thing with the main humans involved in Pharos and Dark Imperium which I loved.

 

2. Council stuff: We get a glimpse with the state of affairs with the council along with the Primarchs. I think this was better than when the primarch first met in the beginning of the book. Alot of things to consider and the crappy situation they are in. It does show how Dorn is and that everyone is expendable...I still love that heartless bastard as my second fav...

 

3. Perturabo: I read the comments on his Horus interaction and wanted to give my two cents. The IW and Perturabo are my favorite traitor legions and I definitely pay close attention to the interactions. I have to say his interaction with Horus is actually in line with his character. He is perpetually always angry and always feels devalued but at the same time clearly wants someone to love him and he is of course just arrogant as . This definitely comes across well in this chapter of the book from when he first gets on the Vengeful spirit...being so judgy but secretly thinking he can outsmart chaos...totally his character. Also as he is walking to meet Horus he is basically saying "what a loser Horus is, blah blah" then when he sees him he gets all "daddy love me" on Horus. This is sort of how French portrays him in the Tallern series in the second book when he basically kneels to Horus after all the mischief he has been up to. I do think Perturabo looks down on the other Primarchs but it always seemed to me he was always seeking favor with Horus. This is just my take on it but I thought the scene was fine...maybe Horus could have toned down the butt kissing little...I mean come on..."I only trust you...all your other brothers suck...I saved the best for last..." But I guess Horus was always good at buttering people up.

 

Final stuff:

 

The last quarter of the book is pretty fast and furious. After much prodding and whatnot, the siege proper finally gets into full swing with the mechanicum siege stuff, traitors bombing in, etc. There is a alot going on but we get good Primarch action and legion on legion action. The last chapter or two are also well done and sets up the third book well...First wall is it? Don't want to give away too much but I liked the closure of some of the characters. 

 

So in general, the book was a slow start but picked up very well and I really enjoyed the read. It is not Solar Wars but then again this is really a book on the biggest Siege eva. I think this plays into how people have responded to this book. I enjoy siege warfare stuff more than large naval battles...the build up...then tension...then bamm! I do think Haley did his research here much like French for Tallarn. You can feel the tension of the defenders, the response to probing attacks, and the climax battles with shield coming down, legions dropping in, you really get the feel for the scale of the attack. I enjoyed the BA fights on the wall and of course Angron...that scene with him is something out of a movie scene with a cool illustration of him.

 

Minus some of the small editorial things which honestly did not really did not detract from the book, I enjoyed this one alot. I think if you go into this that this is the set up for the siege with the build up you will enjoy it. The last half of the book is much more action and left me satisfied. I would have no problem recommending this one. While this is an 8 book finale, I don't think each book is suppose to be NYT seller and each serves a purpose. I am sure the next one with Gav will serve a similar function although if I remember hints of Sigismund going to town...that would be awesome. 

 

I do agree that for such a big thing, the editorial oversight seemed weak for this one. I can't fault Haley for some of the issues people have brought up. I do a fair amount of scientific writing and I have made silly mistakes that only my collaborators picked up. The editorial staff should be on the ball for this one as this is really the crowning event for the series. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Izlude

[nagashnee]

 

Page 205 has the Conqueror flagship of the world eaters as having taken part in the Thramas Crusade. Have i missed something in the lore or is this a mistake and should be the Shadow Crusade?

Should be the Shadow Crusade

I thought so. Thats a bad oversight to make.

[b1soul]

Wraight has tackled Valdor in Magisterium and Two Metaphysical Blades. I believe Wraight's version and ADB's are pretty consistent, whether intentional or not. 

 

EDIT: The only oddity is that in Magisterium, Valdor has an equerry, another Custodes, who calls him "my lord". I never thought Custodes would call each other "lord". In the newer lore, it seems that they would reserve that title for the Emperor only. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by b1soul

[Zuvassin]

I personally liked this book, although it wasn't without its flaws.

 

I will say that I think how Sanguinius and the Khan are portrayed are partly meant (at least to me) to underscore how Dorn has started to (ironically) drift towards the mindset of one like Perturabo, the primarch perhaps most infamous for his (and his legion's) willingness to sacrifice lives in the name of victory. Given that book three appears to be focused on Dorn vs Perturabo, I think that's a good setup leading to that.

 

Similarly, the Abaddon/Horus stuff seemed geared towards setting the stage for how Abaddon and the Black Legion will come to more or less despise Horus. I couldn't help but think of ADB's Black Legion books. His interactions with Zardu were a bit too one-dimensional, but that may be more because I got tired of hearing how many times Zardu and his minions kept initiating anger-transformations at the first sign of Abaddon mouthing off to him. In a way, I liked the relationship, because it reminded me of 80s cartoon lackeys, like they're the Destro and Cobra Commander to Horus' Serpentor (or the Soundwave and Starscream to Horus' Megatron), but as the HH series continued forth, I think I've come to feel that the fall to Chaos was almost unnecessary and not as interesting lore-wise as it used to be. There's been plenty of reasons given for why primarchs like Lorgar and Angron fell that I'd rather focus on the general bitterness of Perturabo or narcissism of Fulgrim.

 

Having said that, Zardu's speech to Terra was pretty good in an old school Rogue Trader era sort of over the top way, although when I randomly thought of the big head from Rick and Morty, it ruined any possible attempt for me to take it seriously rather than just imagining Zardu endlessly yelling "SHOW THE GODS WHAT YOU GOT".  

 

Also, as an IW player, I get why a lot of people didn't like how Perturabo was portrayed, especially in his final scene with Horus, but a part of me felt that maybe this is an attempt to try and explain how a relatively "atheist" traitor primarch can still eventually become a daemon primarch. He isn't aligned to a god like Angron or Magnus, nor a general servant of the pantheon like Lorgar. It'll be interesting to see how they portray Perty's ascension (assuming they will cover it in the Scouring or somewhere else at some point), but I guess to me his portrayal here seemed like an attempt to set up his character as someone who obviously isn't a devout cultist, but nevertheless has an attraction to the warp (and an ego open to manipulation by Horus) that will guarantee some sort of eventual embrace of it.

 

The mortal POVs were fine, other than the air fighting scenes, but I've never been big into flyers, either as minis or lore. Just not my cup of tea.

[carlisimo]

I enjoyed it, but I’m not sure it was particularly strong. I think it’s the way it divides its attention - you get some human/abhuman points of view, some primarch points of view, and (mostly towards the end) some legion lead-captain points of view. Those were all necessary to the broader story but they don’t allow the novel to have an overarching feel to it. It’s been a problem for the series for a long time. Since Vengeful Spirit, maybe? I think back to Guy Haley’s early 40k Imperial Guard novels and Katsuhiro’s arc just doesn’t compare because you don’t remain immersed in it.

 

It does a great job of explaining the siege as if it were a campaign book. That was probably its main objective.

 

I like comparing these novels to past depictions of the Horus Heresy. A lot of seemingly-strange plot decisions seem to be attempts to explain the old stories, which I think is a lot of fun. I think I’ll start a new thread for that.

[Taliesin]

Just got my copy, which is indeed, very lovely looking.

 

It's off to a great start in the first chapter.

[Lucerne]

This felt superficial, lacking in vision/scale, and generally more than a little phoned in. Disappointing as a novel in its own right, and even the Alpha Legion subplot lacked impact or characterization. This isn't even a knock against human perspectives- I've thought the Heresy lacked those for the longest time, but turning the Siege of Terra into a glorified trench outside the palace walls (which the artwork was ironically a bit of a warning of) is...Not ideal. None of the characters felt particularly real, either, even recurring ones, which is a pity. You can tell the cameos were written by someone who had read their books, which is a plus I suppose, but  his heart obviously wasn't in it.

 

Points for references to other writers' works, I suppose, but I hope the next few manage to capture the scale and significance of the Siege- as well as narrative focus- much better.

 

Necropolis this wasn't. I hope the FW Black Book we eventually get can spin this around into something with more vision and depth, but there's not much they can do about Horus going on a bad trip at the climax of his own heresy or the siege of terra being a whole load of nothing until the actual wall scenes. Who in management decided that was a good way to handle the Arch-Heretic?

 

Also, it's fairly silly and crippling to future narratives in this timeframe for the bulk of the Siege of Terra to have both sides follow a gentleman's agreement to explicitly not throw Space Marines at it. That's basically the equivalent of the Fall of Cadia canonically not involving a single Kasrkin or Havoc anywhere on the planet for no apparent reason beyond Abaddon going senile and Creed bungling tactics. But now, apparently, the canon for most of the Siege of Terra is that it's a senseless slapfest between the Lost (Imperial Army) and the Damned except for the Palace itself.

 

I really do hope the Forge World writers can salvage a plausible, if not grand, narrative from this mess when they get around to it.

 

The more I think about it, the more this feels like it should have been an Abnett novel instead. Human perspectives, especially Imperial Army? A massive urban siege scenario around the planet building up to the fall of the palace itself? Horus POV? All things he's handled much better in the past.

 

In the interest of fairness: character motivations seeming a little hollow aside, it was nice to get an AL operative cameo and subplot. The Night Lord cameos were the least bad of the Marine centric writing though I find the attempt to shoehorn [Redacted] into the new style of [redacted] to be distasteful given his mutations were originally more subtle than the tabletop version in the 40k novels he originated in. The non-ground war parts and non-Primarch timewasting parts weren't entirely unreadable.

 

My final verdict on this one: theoretically, an interesting premise for a set-up novel, but executed well below expectations for the writer on every level and definitely below the standard needed for a series finale installment. Read if you must but I'm honestly struggling to find good things to say about it, even when it comes to simple worldbuilding. No one comes out of the Lost and the Damned looking good except for the characters and factions that aren't in it.

 

The Siege of Terra can be better reading than this was.

 

If you want an interesting and plausible take on the early to mid Siege of Terra before the walls fall, I can't recommend this project log enough as a replacement, despite being written well before recent novels: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282531-in-memoriam-update/

 

If only because it doesn't make the Fists and Dorn out to be muppets whose idea of a defensive position is to shove clerks with lasguns outside the palace walls, cower inside, and hope for the best, or the battles on the most fortified hive in the Imperium  to be a superficial set of encounters on an open field that make medieval tactics look like Stalingrad by comparison.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Ugolino

[Marshal Loss]

To each their own - this novel certainly has a lot of flaws and you make some good points - but this criticism confused me:

 

Also, it's fairly silly and crippling to future narratives in this timeframe for the bulk of the Siege of Terra to have both sides follow a gentleman's agreement to explicitly not throw Space Marines at it. That's basically the equivalent of the Fall of Cadia canonically not involving a single Kasrkin or Havoc anywhere on the planet for no apparent reason beyond Abaddon going senile and Creed bungling tactics. But now, apparently, the canon for most of the Siege of Terra is that it's a senseless slapfest between the Lost (Imperial Army) and the Damned except for the Palace itself.

 

Not sure where you're getting this from? LATD does not cover the bulk of the Siege of Terra, there is plenty of Space Marine action in this book - not to mention that historically speaking it would be rather odd if both sides threw their best troops in straight away - and I think it is safe to assume that future novels will be far more Astartes-centric.

 

This book is, essentially, the story of the earliest days of the battle for Terra's surface. It starts with a slapfest between hordes of poorly washed savages and the noble servants of Horus, and ends with the first all-out assault by Traitor Astartes on the walls & gates. This assault fails, and there is plenty more fighting to do before the bad guys breach the walls. I agree with your view that this novel is below the standards we should expect of this series but I also don't think this criticism is particularly fair.

[Lucerne]

To each their own - this novel certainly has a lot of flaws and you make some good points - but this criticism confused me:

 

Also, it's fairly silly and crippling to future narratives in this timeframe for the bulk of the Siege of Terra to have both sides follow a gentleman's agreement to explicitly not throw Space Marines at it. That's basically the equivalent of the Fall of Cadia canonically not involving a single Kasrkin or Havoc anywhere on the planet for no apparent reason beyond Abaddon going senile and Creed bungling tactics. But now, apparently, the canon for most of the Siege of Terra is that it's a senseless slapfest between the Lost (Imperial Army) and the Damned except for the Palace itself.

 

Not sure where you're getting this from? LATD does not cover the bulk of the Siege of Terra, there is plenty of Space Marine action in this book - not to mention that historically speaking it would be rather odd if both sides threw their best troops in straight away - and I think it is safe to assume that future novels will be far more Astartes-centric.

 

This book is, essentially, the story of the earliest days of the battle for Terra's surface. It starts with a slapfest between hordes of poorly washed savages and the noble servants of Horus, and ends with the first all-out assault by Traitor Astartes on the walls & gates. This assault fails, and there is plenty more fighting to do before the bad guys breach the walls. I agree with your view that this novel is below the standards we should expect of this series but I also don't think this criticism is particularly fair.

Earliest days or not, it makes the Siege seem smaller to have it be such a straightforward affair instead of a painful, drawn out urban grind, and it's grating for the traitors to explicitly not send so much as a tactical marine while Dorn frets over his own forces. This isn't 40k. They both have Marines to spare, and while the initial wave being fodder/glorious liberators of the warmaster and chosen children of the gods is one thing, you'd think either of them would have sent in a few more Astartes, if only kill teams? Offscreen, even.

 

It makes them both look like miserly fools, especially for a surprise attack to even be possible on the walls of Terra towards the end.

 

(I also prefer the idea that the "first on the walls of Terra" is a bit of a confused mess with that being a credible claim...for a lot of Legions and a lot of raptors. Because the loyalists shot the first lot, the second, and then the confused survivors of what was left of the next few attackers claimed they were all "first". Instead, we got a painfully straightforward and successful initial landing by Champion Lucky due to 40k Novel Plot Armor, which was...functional but nothing more as a plot point.)

 

Also, for the Siege to tunnel vision on the Palace as the be-all end-all rather than that be the end of a long and painful slog is aggravating. I can see why that's what they went with, but I don't have to like it. They had a chance to worldbuild and kinda blew it.

 

If I had a say I'd have done two things very differently:

1)Either move Astartes deployment up considerably, note that less glamorous Astartes deployments happened offscreen constantly- and I don't buy that Perturabo of all people would just meekly wait around, Horus be damned- or more or less cut the "BUT WARMASTER, I WANT TO BE THE FIRST ONE ON TERRA" subplot entirely as part of the problem of 'everyone in this plot comes over as an idiot', or condense it into a section of a single chapter or a verbal footnote. You can definitely have a mortal centric plotline without contrivances to ruin any fun writers can have with Marines on Terra itself before the first shot at the walls themselves. It's not as though the payoff of Morty's antivaxxers was anything all that special, either, and it adds to the issue of Dorn not seeming terribly competent in this one.

 

2)As I see it, the Palace fighting should be the endgame of the Siege, even the initial landings on the walls. Terra itself basically fell with a whimper more than a bang, overhyped blurbs about casualties and minor mentions of interesting events aside.

 

Lost and the Damned should have been about the taking of hives, the death by a thousand cuts of old Terra to the invader, the perspective of the common Terran as their world ends and the skies rain blood, the grim groundwork of the Warmaster for the endgame as he races against the clock.  It should have been about mortals hearing the gossip, pondering their choices, and feeling like they're between a rock and a hard place- and we should have seen characters making each of those choices. We got hints of that but not nearly enough.

 

I think the Primarchs appearing in person at all in this one was a mistake. Imagine if they'd been distant, shadowed figures and we only learned about the events involved them through the eyes of witnesses along the edges of this war?

 

"...What are Lord Dorn's orders?"

 

"...No one has seen the Warmaster for weeks."

 

"What is that, falling from the sky? Blood of the gods, is that-"

 

Not one joker being useless in a ditch while the traitor primarchs gossip with each other.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Ugolino

[DukeLeto69]

Hmmmm I find this concerning (not real world concerning but fanboy concerning). I have literally just finished The Solar War by John French and would happily describe that book as "awesome" and a brilliant start for the SoT mini series. Obviously I will buy in hardback and read and decide for myself (because taste comes into it) but the points made by @Ugolino worry me. IMO Haley is a solid writer but not in the Black Library top tier (which for me is Abnett, Wraight, French, Fehervari, ADB and Farrer - no order implied as depends on book) but again that is a question of taste.

[Lucerne]

Hmmmm I find this concerning (not real world concerning but fanboy concerning). I have literally just finished The Solar War by John French and would happily describe that book as "awesome" and a brilliant start for the SoT mini series. Obviously I will buy in hardback and read and decide for myself (because taste comes into it) but the points made by @Ugolino worry me. IMO Haley is a solid writer but not in the Black Library top tier (which for me is Abnett, Wraight, French, Fehervari, ADB and Farrer - no order implied as depends on book) but again that is a question of taste.

I mean, give it a shot- Solar War didn't really have any of the issues I mentioned here and Haley is generally at least solid.

 

This is just hopefully a oneoff wobble that the next book recovers from and that the wider writing of the series ignores outright.

[caladancid]

So this makes two books in a row now that Haley has fluffed (with Titandeath). I’m thinking he needs a bit of a reset.

[DarkChaplain]

Titandeath was anything but fluffed. It may not have been what people expected (Sangy-porn seemed like a general desire on that one...), but it was a perfectly intriguing novel.

 

I'd go so far as to say that its association with ForgeWorld is what made it more of a personal story than a "big war happens, here's the BatRep" book. Beta-Garmon was supposed to be covered solely through FW, and by the time of writing, work on the FW book was already in progress for Titanicus. They probably made a conscious decision to separate the two works by having FW covering the top down perspective more, with Haley giving the more emotional, personal take of a Legion involved, with blips of the wider conflict.

[Knockagh]

I’m about a third of the way through this and throughly enjoying every bit of it. I’m glad it’s recappped the current situation, my Heresy reading isn’t up to date enough to know everyone’s whereabouts.

The human conscripts have really added to the feel of the story for me. Ugolino makes some good points. The palace should have been the endgame and I’m not sure why we arrived there so quickly but I’m sure there is a point to the rushed start, there are 6 more books to go, I’m hoping we don’t get 3 or 4 just on battling through palace corridors, also on seeing human responses from the hives but I’ve not lost hope that this still might come.

I love Guys writing style this is a cracking book so far, I’m expecting it to turn sour though with all the poor reports here. Hopefully not, for me at least.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Also Haley put out Curze between LatD and Titandeath, which was great

[aa.logan]

I took my time with this one, a couple of chapters a day at most- not because of a lack of quality, just because I wanted to stretch out my enjoyment of it. I think it might have helped my enjoyment of the story- looking back, the early stages of the book seem a long way distant from it’s climax.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, I was really looking forward to the focus on mortals rather than marines, and was hoping for more insight into the traitors than the loyalists. While it didn’t quite deliver all I’d hoped for from the former, it certainly did with the latter. I really liked Horus’ interactions with his brothers, and the traitor marines that the book focused on were really well fleshed out (especially in comparison with the slightly one-note loyalists featured).

 

All in all, it is a good entry to the series.

[caladancid]

Titandeath was anything but fluffed. It may not have been what people expected (Sangy-porn seemed like a general desire on that one...), but it was a perfectly intriguing novel.

 

I'd go so far as to say that its association with ForgeWorld is what made it more of a personal story than a "big war happens, here's the BatRep" book. Beta-Garmon was supposed to be covered solely through FW, and by the time of writing, work on the FW book was already in progress for Titanicus. They probably made a conscious decision to separate the two works by having FW covering the top down perspective more, with Haley giving the more emotional, personal take of a Legion involved, with blips of the wider conflict.

 

Agree to disagree but I am glad you liked it.

[Lucerne]

I took my time with this one, a couple of chapters a day at most- not because of a lack of quality, just because I wanted to stretch out my enjoyment of it. I think it might have helped my enjoyment of the story- looking back, the early stages of the book seem a long way distant from it’s climax.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, I was really looking forward to the focus on mortals rather than marines, and was hoping for more insight into the traitors than the loyalists. While it didn’t quite deliver all I’d hoped for from the former, it certainly did with the latter. I really liked Horus’ interactions with his brothers, and the traitor marines that the book focused on were really well fleshed out (especially in comparison with the slightly one-note loyalists featured).

 

All in all, it is a good entry to the series.

To echo the above, I'm glad  you found enjoyment where I didn't.

[Fire Golem]

I thought this was solid, but not much more than that. It had big boots to fill after Solar War in my opinion, and it’s probably not helping that I’m also currently re-reading ASOIAF at work (which I love, I find the writing fantastic and the comparison to that doesn’t help most books).

 

I’m a bit irritated by Perty’s portrayal. I get that he hates Dorn, and feels under-utilised, but it felt like those two things were brought up every time he was in it. There’s more to him than that.

[Indefragable]

Haven't read/listened to it yet (waiting for audiobook release, but I haven't been able to help myself with spoilers and such here. I would bet that this book was decided upon as a "necessary" setup-piece later in the creative process and so they turned to Ol' Reliable (Haley) to churn out something passable in record speed.

[MegaVolt87]

I thought this was solid, but not much more than that. It had big boots to fill after Solar War in my opinion, and it’s probably not helping that I’m also currently re-reading ASOIAF at work (which I love, I find the writing fantastic and the comparison to that doesn’t help most books).

 

I’m a bit irritated by Perty’s portrayal. I get that he hates Dorn, and feels under-utilised, but it felt like those two things were brought up every time he was in it. There’s more to him than that.

 

Well, Perty has been holding on to a lot of resentment for Dorn for years. He has an obsessive personality and I am sure Horus is not only buttering him up, but likely egging him on about Dorn as well. This, and the fact that Perty is directing such a significant operation, while not meeting Dorn in a duel yet, defeating his strategems and plans is as good as defeating Dorn himself at this point. Maybe I am reading too much into the Dorn hate focus, but that's how I see it. 

[Knockagh]

Still hugely enjoining this. I think his portrayal of the Khan is excellent. The humans are all great characters. I love sanguinius as the angel of mons inspiring the troops in the trenches. Angron is splendid in his fury.

Still wondering why we are here at the gates so early but not feeling any of the negativity or drop off in quality from solar war. I suspect at least 2 or three books will take place after Horus is killed.

[b1soul]

I'd have to agree...this is solid but not great, which has kinda become the hallmark of Haley. But I'd take Haley's solid over Thorpe's stuff any day.

[Knockagh]

I'd have to agree...this is solid but not great, which has kinda become the hallmark of Haley. But I'd take Haley's solid over Thorpe's stuff any day.

Crom’s hairy armpits, thats two mighty lore masters your dissing right there. If I was a BL author I would butcher those who run me down on forums (by putting screen names in their novels obviously....not actually butchering) I’m awaiting a burning to death in an Annandale some day soon

[caladancid]

 

I'd have to agree...this is solid but not great, which has kinda become the hallmark of Haley. But I'd take Haley's solid over Thorpe's stuff any day.

Crom’s hairy armpits, thats two mighty lore masters your dissing right there. If I was a BL author I would butcher those who run me down on forums (by putting screen names in their novels obviously....not actually butchering) I’m awaiting a burning to death in an Annandale some day soon

 

 

Yeah but he is right.