The Siege of Terra: The Lost and the Damned

[Indefragable]

According to BL.com, this comes out for full release (including my preferred audio format) in October 2019. Things seem to come out on the 16th or 19th of a month.

 

My first kid is due 18 October...

 

...what are the chances of:

 

A. it coming out earlier in the month

B. I can somehow persuade BL to give me a an audio version early

C. someone records themselves reading it outloud and sends it to me

 

Oh well. I can always catch up after the kid turns 18, right?

[Knockagh]

According to BL.com, this comes out for full release (including my preferred audio format) in October 2019. Things seem to come out on the 16th or 19th of a month.

 

My first kid is due 18 October...

 

...what are the chances of:

 

A. it coming out earlier in the month

B. I can somehow persuade BL to give me a an audio version early

C. someone records themselves reading it outloud and sends it to me

 

Oh well. I can always catch up after the kid turns 18, right?

First up, congratulations you lunatic! Welcome to a world of pain....and a plentiful supply of laughter! Best thing you will ever do becoming a Dad, enjoy every single second. I remember reading Heresy books in the maternity ward for all my kids arrivals, with Ludovico Einaudi playing on a cd, while awaiting on my good lady to work her marvellousness.

Numbers 6 24-26

[carlisimo]

According to BL.com, this comes out for full release (including my preferred audio format) in October 2019. Things seem to come out on the 16th or 19th of a month.

 

My first kid is due 18 October...

 

...what are the chances of:

 

A. it coming out earlier in the month

B. I can somehow persuade BL to give me a an audio version early

C. someone records themselves reading it outloud and sends it to me

 

Oh well. I can always catch up after the kid turns 18, right?

Congratulations!

 

You’ll have plenty of reading time once your baby comes along. In my case, that’s when I started reading the HH series - during my new lonely life of chores after my wife puts him to sleep and falls asleep herself.

 

Early on, I’d hold him while reading ebooks on my iPad. Later on, I’d read while washing bottles. Audiobooks work well while you’re folding laundry. A physical book doesn’t work for me anymore.

 

When they’re really little, they’re totally fine with noise - the womb’s loud, after all. They’ll sleep through an audiobook the first couple of months. Or just use an earphone in one ear.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Lol!

[Lucerne]

Honestly, the Lost and the Damned desperately needs to be retconned in terms of events and scale- either in short stories or in the eventual FW take.

[RedFurioso]

Honestly, the Lost and the Damned desperately needs to be retconned in terms of events and scale- either in short stories or in the eventual FW take.

What's wrong with the scale?

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

Honestly, the Lost and the Damned desperately needs to be retconned in terms of events and scale- either in short stories or in the eventual FW take.

What's wrong with the scale?

 

 

I'm pretty sure, that he want to say that for now, Humans heretics/mutants and renegades imperial guard are now depicted as they should be. (Dark Mechanicum is on the same boat.)

 

It would be interresting to have stories on renegades/chaotic/traitor regiments of the Imperial Guard, or about Dark Mechanicum war against the Mechanicum.

 

In the recent years, many things have been included in the Lore, for examples Knights Houses, and very recently Renegades Knights Houses. Both of those opens new possibility regarding the stories authors can write.

[Morovir]

I think he was referring to the Siege of Terra novel.

[Lucerne]

 

Honestly, the Lost and the Damned desperately needs to be retconned in terms of events and scale- either in short stories or in the eventual FW take.

What's wrong with the scale?

 

The Siege of Terra beyond the palace itself is reduced to a footnote and the prelude to the fall of the Palace walls is literally medieval in scope and depiction in the novel as well as absurdities like not a single Astartes setting foot on-planet for most of it and commanders on both sides being written as bunglers- or non-entities.

 

FW is going to have a hell of a time trying to make sense of that last Siege novel, is what I'm saying.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Ugolino

[DarkChaplain]

I don't see the issue with neither side wanting to commit their Astartes when they've got perfectly workable fodder to throw at one another while working out the greater Siege / defense of the Palace. Every Legionary on the Loyalist side counts, and the Khan takes the fight out anyway. And on Horus' part, we know that he's fighting on a different scale and preparing the soil of Terra for the big assault.

 

And frankly, FW have been doing whatever from the start, rewriting left and right, for better or worse. I also don't see why they'd have to necessarily rewrite this part when they'd just as likely include their guard models and release a few more traitors for it. Not like they have years of material to get through writing first. At the pace they're going, they may get to the black books for the siege by 2030 or thereabouts...

[Lucerne]

I don't see the issue with neither side wanting to commit their Astartes when they've got perfectly workable fodder to throw at one another while working out the greater Siege / defense of the Palace. Every Legionary on the Loyalist side counts, and the Khan takes the fight out anyway. And on Horus' part, we know that he's fighting on a different scale and preparing the soil of Terra for the big assault.

 

And frankly, FW have been doing whatever from the start, rewriting left and right, for better or worse. I also don't see why they'd have to necessarily rewrite this part when they'd just as likely include their guard models and release a few more traitors for it. Not like they have years of material to get through writing first. At the pace they're going, they may get to the black books for the siege by 2030 or thereabouts...

Literally no Astartes? The fall of Terra being a footnote to the palace walls? Dorn's idea of fortification being handwaved to "hide behind the palace walls, which were easily reached"?

[MegaVolt87]

Using Astartes to counter attack break throughs in outer defenses with more numerous Imperial Army troops, automated defenses, bunkers/pill boxes, trenches, mines, razor wire etc. Seems like a good set of delaying tactics to buy time for loyalist reinforcements to Terra to me. Plus, Horus probably needs the carnage to empower his demonic allies, and so the initial demon primarchs can actually hit the battlefield. Plus, you reduce astartes casualties by having the fodder overrun/ deplete outer defences first. This seems like the dawn of modern 40k CSM battle tactics IMO. 

 

EDIT- basically the beginning of the end of Astartes beach head assaults/ first wave attacks. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by MegaVolt87

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I don't see the issue with neither side wanting to commit their Astartes when they've got perfectly workable fodder to throw at one another while working out the greater Siege / defense of the Palace. Every Legionary on the Loyalist side counts, and the Khan takes the fight out anyway. And on Horus' part, we know that he's fighting on a different scale and preparing the soil of Terra for the big assault.

 

And frankly, FW have been doing whatever from the start, rewriting left and right, for better or worse. I also don't see why they'd have to necessarily rewrite this part when they'd just as likely include their guard models and release a few more traitors for it. Not like they have years of material to get through writing first. At the pace they're going, they may get to the black books for the siege by 2030 or thereabouts...

Literally no Astartes? The fall of Terra being a footnote to the palace walls? Dorn's idea of fortification being handwaved to "hide behind the palace walls, which were easily reached"?

 

 

Why would you use Astartes to besiege a fortress, or garrison walls, when those walls cover thousands of kilometers? The Astartes are an elite fighting force, and this is the bloodiest part of the fighting. You want to hold your elite troops in reserve so as to either force the breach as the attacker, or to reinforce overrun positions as the defender. Manning artillery can be done just as well by baseline humans. Both sides have Astartes forces ranging in the hundreds of thousands. Their numbers of conscripted militia and Imperial Army forces number in the hundreds of millions. Once inside the fortress walls itself, sheer numbers will be harder to bring to bear, so why hold them back? Why waste Astartes now?

Also, have you considered the possibility that maybe we'll get a different novel, possibly about the Scars, that will cover the rest of Terra?

[Lucerne]

 

 

I don't see the issue with neither side wanting to commit their Astartes when they've got perfectly workable fodder to throw at one another while working out the greater Siege / defense of the Palace. Every Legionary on the Loyalist side counts, and the Khan takes the fight out anyway. And on Horus' part, we know that he's fighting on a different scale and preparing the soil of Terra for the big assault.

 

And frankly, FW have been doing whatever from the start, rewriting left and right, for better or worse. I also don't see why they'd have to necessarily rewrite this part when they'd just as likely include their guard models and release a few more traitors for it. Not like they have years of material to get through writing first. At the pace they're going, they may get to the black books for the siege by 2030 or thereabouts...

Literally no Astartes? The fall of Terra being a footnote to the palace walls? Dorn's idea of fortification being handwaved to "hide behind the palace walls, which were easily reached"?

 

 

Why would you use Astartes to besiege a fortress, or garrison walls, when those walls cover thousands of kilometers? The Astartes are an elite fighting force, and this is the bloodiest part of the fighting. You want to hold your elite troops in reserve so as to either force the breach as the attacker, or to reinforce overrun positions as the defender. Manning artillery can be done just as well by baseline humans. Both sides have Astartes forces ranging in the hundreds of thousands. Their numbers of conscripted militia and Imperial Army forces number in the hundreds of millions. Once inside the fortress walls itself, sheer numbers will be harder to bring to bear, so why hold them back? Why waste Astartes now?

Also, have you considered the possibility that maybe we'll get a different novel, possibly about the Scars, that will cover the rest of Terra?

 

The Astartes are Legions of hot-housed shock infantry- that at this point for the traitors are quite often mass produced cannon fodder- that mow through mortal defenders/aggressors. There's "hold back the bulk of your forces" and then there's "the Siege of Terra had both Legion sides twiddling their thumbs for pretty much the whole thing and the Fists can't seem to fortify a sandcastle despite being given years to do so, let alone Terra".

 

It won't make this novel any better as a standalone, but, yes. The only hope for the lore of the Siege of Terra as a whole at this point is FW tossing the spirit and maybe letter of those parts of the novel straight out a window when they get around to it.

 

This is especially disappointing given the author isn't known for incompetence and the high standard set by previous novels.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Ugolino

[Lord_Caerolion]

Again, but you've got the choice between using unaugmented soldiers that you have millions/billions of, whose only real strength is weight of numbers, compared to the hot-housed Astartes that still only number in the tens of thousands, and are worth more one-for-one in enclosed quarters, but die to artillery almost identically. Why not use your chaff for literally the reason it exists? Save your hot-housed suicide troops for the same way they were used in Solar War, for suicide massed charges against specific objectives they can actually obtain, not for manning trenches and firing artillery.

I think you're underestimating the sheer number of mortal troops both sides hold. The Astartes are absolutely not the bulk of either sides forces. Nowhere near. The Imperial Fists had 100,000 Marines at the outset of the Heresy. The Blood Angels had roughly 120,000 at their height, and took significant losses at Signus Prime and on the flight to Terra. The White Scars were estimated at the start of the Heresy to have roughly 100,000 as well, and also took significant losses as they reached Terra. 

 

Now, lets be incredibly generous, and assume that the Blood Angels and White Scars are able to double their starting number with hot-housed marines, and let the Imperial Fists quadruple theirs. That gives us 240,000 BA's, 200,000 WS's, and 400,000 IF's. In fact, since we're being generous, let's make it a nice round number, and assume that there's 60,000 Marines from the other loyal Legions on Terra too. That gives us 900,000 Adeptus Astartes defenders under the command of Rogal Dorn. Now, how many billions of civilians are on Terra that he can press-gang? How many millions of soldiers do they have in Imperial Army units? That's not counting their artillery and other vehicle support.

 

The Imperial Army/Solar Auxillia work best at range, with vehicle/artillery support. They don't do as well in tighter environments, which is where the Astartes shine. They need to be able to bring their numbers to bear, whereas Astartes want to be able to use their physical superiority and not get overwhelmed by weight of numbers. Why have Astartes man the walls, that are just going to be bombarded with heavy artillery? You have literally billions of other soldiers to do that. Why have Astartes man the artillery? It's not like they'll need to be expert marksmen. Why hold the mortals back? You're only going to be meaning that it'll be them that have to now take the choke-points, where your numbers are no longer an advantage.

 

There is absolutely no strategic advantage to using the Astartes in the initial waves of fighting. They'll either just be obliterated in no-mans land by the artillery of the defenders, or by the artillery of the attackers when defending the walls. Astartes may have bolters, but that's not really much point when the enemy is lobbing Earthshaker shells at you. Yes, you're right in that they can mow through mortal defenders/aggressors, but that depends on them actually getting in range, and when you're facing down artillery and massed emplaced guns, you're not surviving that charge. Sure, you could teleport them, if the Traitors didn't have daemons screwing with the Warp and the defenders have their own defenses against that. Air-drop? Chaos has air/orbital control, but the Imperials have the AA emplacements. Good luck surviving that drop. Rhino rush/Land Raider spam? Cool, you've just attracted the attention of every anti-tank weapon in range, and there are lots.

On the other hand, once the breach is established, you're in to the fighting in the halls of the Palace itself. Now, the numbers of the mortals are not as much use. Their vehicles less use. The strengths of the Astartes more in play. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Besieging the outer walls of the palace is a math game, it’s the fighting in the palace where they’re going to need the heavy armored Shock troops. 300 conscripts in a trench supported by artillery will absolutely :cuss up a space marine spearhead. There are some great academic papers on how they used to besiege Vauban forts, and it’s equal parts geometry, artillery science, and supply chain timetables. Some pieces even have first hand accounts from the engineers that built the fortresses themselves. They even wrote in Dorn leveling huge parts of the outer palace simply to force the traitors not to use space marines to their full effect. That’s a nice touch. Edited September 19, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Lucerne]

The point isn't that mortals are more disposable and will make up the majority of fighting on Terra. That's a given. Even in the Crusade, that's to be expected.

 

It's the blanket restriction on so much as a kill team anywhere on Terra from either side that seems arbitrary, ridiculous, and suspension-of-disbelief-breaking. It takes what should have been  "the mortal's moment in the spotlight" and makes it the product of both sides having serious brain damage.

 

(Also Dorn's fortifications after all these years were worth sweet all and he doesn't show any of the insight we saw from him in previous Siege-adjacent novels.)

Edited September 19, 2019 by Ugolino

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, I'm going to put Dorns "stupid" defenses down to the Traitors having Perturabo, one of the absolute best siege tacticians in the galaxy. Honestly, you're acting upset that the #1 of something is actually challenged by the #2, and that that proves that the #1 sucked and is an idiot? Let's put it another way. Novak Djokovic is the currently-ranked #1 male tennis player in the world. #2 is Rafael Nadal. Nadal and Djokovic can play incredibly close matches against each other, and Djokovic doesn't always win. That doesn't mean that Djokovic won't absolutely annihilate me, a non-tennis player, if we played. 

 

Also, until we get confirmation of "the Alpha Legion actually meant it this time when they said they didn't have operatives in play", combined with Malcadors tricksiness, I wouldn't be surprised at all that there may have been kill-teams operating, but they simply were outside the scope of the novel. 

[Lucerne]

Well, I'm going to put Dorns "stupid" defenses down to the Traitors having Perturabo, one of the absolute best siege tacticians in the galaxy. Honestly, you're acting upset that the #1 of something is actually challenged by the #2, and that that proves that the #1 sucked and is an idiot? Let's put it another way. Novak Djokovic is the currently-ranked #1 male tennis player in the world. #2 is Rafael Nadal. Nadal and Djokovic can play incredibly close matches against each other, and Djokovic doesn't always win. That doesn't mean that Djokovic won't absolutely annihilate me, a non-tennis player, if we played. 

 

Also, until we get confirmation of "the Alpha Legion actually meant it this time when they said they didn't have operatives in play", combined with Malcadors tricksiness, I wouldn't be surprised at all that there may have been kill-teams operating, but they simply were outside the scope of the novel. 

1. Perturabo was a non-factor for most of it. I'd be over the moon about a proper siege with siegework chess matches all over terra...but that isn't what was in the novel.

2. There wasn't much in the novel as depicted to undermine. That's the problem.

3. "outside the scope of the novel" is a kind way to say "someone else can do the idea justice because this writer sure as hell didn't"

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, it's a way of saying "this novel is focusing on the siege-work done by the mortals, demonstrating that the Heresy isn't All Astartes, All The Time." The novel was written to cover one particular thing, and it's done that, from the sounds of it. We've already had books suffer from including unnecessary plotlines that just dilute everything, so including Astartes for the sake of Astartes, when we'll be getting plenty more of that as the Siege continues. Let the mortals have their time to shine.

 

I will admit to not having read the book yet, so I'll withhold from judging further the details about how the actual siege-fighting is portrayed.

[Lucerne]

No, it's a way of saying "this novel is focusing on the siege-work done by the mortals, demonstrating that the Heresy isn't All Astartes, All The Time." The novel was written to cover one particular thing, and it's done that, from the sounds of it. We've already had books suffer from including unnecessary plotlines that just dilute everything, so including Astartes for the sake of Astartes, when we'll be getting plenty more of that as the Siege continues. Let the mortals have their time to shine.

 

I will admit to not having read the book yet, so I'll withhold from judging further the details about how the actual siege-fighting is portrayed.

You're defending a hypothetical novel that handled a perfectly good subject well, rather than the actual one that took a decent concept and promptly trashed the entire opening act of the Terran Siege by a)mishandling the plot point of "the palace is where the fiercest fighting will take place, and the rest of Terra will fall", b)set up "the humans are key to the first act" in a cack-handed and implausible way- almost literal writer fiat.

 

My issue isn't even the theoretical handling so much as the actual novel we got and the way the ideas were executed.

[Carach]

i don't get the complaint dude. There's how many more novels on the siege yet to come?

 

But you complain we have a novel that focuses on humans? in a war where literally untold billions of aforementioned humans die...

 

we have enough space marine battles bolter porn.....is it really so bad that humans get a story for once

[Phoebus]

With respect, isn’t it a bit late in the game to fret about how and when various factions are employed in battle?

 

We’ve seen Astartes march into battle behind shield-walls and Imperial Army units form pike phalanxes. Castle walls shouldn’t even exist given the existence of artillery, much less orbital weapons. I’m not trying to have a go at the authors, but technology (void shields, orbital bombardment, artillery, etc.) is as effective or ineffective as they deem, depending on the needs of their story.

 

Given all these things, does it really matter whether Horus Lupercal forms his Astartes into a forlorn hope or keeps them in reserve? The priority has never been to adhere to realistic considerations of warfighting, but to describe epic battles that incorporate certain themes. If we’re going to worry about what “makes sense,” then we the real Siege of Terra would be the void battle to secure orbital supremacy over the Throneworld. Absent author’s fiat, there’s no reason Horus’s armada — which easily counts thousands of capital ships as big as Manhattan in its ranks, and tens of thousands of other warships — couldn’t defeat the Imperial Palace’s defenses. At any rate, there’s no reason it couldn’t do so faster than a ground force (which would be moving at a snail’s pace, relatively speaking, and have mind-bendingly staggering logistical requirements).

[Lucerne]

With respect, isn’t it a bit late in the game to fret about how and when various factions are employed in battle?

 

We’ve seen Astartes march into battle behind shield-walls and Imperial Army units form pike phalanxes. Castle walls shouldn’t even exist given the existence of artillery, much less orbital weapons. I’m not trying to have a go at the authors, but technology (void shields, orbital bombardment, artillery, etc.) is as effective or ineffective as they deem, depending on the needs of their story.

 

Given all these things, does it really matter whether Horus Lupercal forms his Astartes into a forlorn hope or keeps them in reserve? The priority has never been to adhere to realistic considerations of warfighting, but to describe epic battles that incorporate certain themes. If we’re going to worry about what “makes sense,” then we the real Siege of Terra would be the void battle to secure orbital supremacy over the Throneworld. Absent author’s fiat, there’s no reason Horus’s armada — which easily counts thousands of capital ships as big as Manhattan in its ranks, and tens of thousands of other warships — couldn’t defeat the Imperial Palace’s defenses. At any rate, there’s no reason it couldn’t do so faster than a ground force (which would be moving at a snail’s pace, relatively speaking, and have mind-bendingly staggering logistical requirements).

It matters because the story is poorer for being told in this style and a blanket statement in it ruins any future storytelling about the subject. It's not epic, it's a poor attempt to depict trench warfare and a "siege" that feels narratively anemic and uninteresting even for a medieval story, let alone the climax of a science fantasy space opera about a civil war between demigods that splits the Imperium in half.

 

If I wanted a siege story done well, I'll go reread Vraks. This book and the execution of its premise- a premise I like in theory- were not worth the damage caused to future stories in this timeframe.

 

Also the rationale for "why not just bombard the Palace" is something along the lines of a)Void shields and wanting to take Terra relatively intact.

 

The space conflict honestly is something I hope to read more about- from other writers.

 

i don't get the complaint dude. There's how many more novels on the siege yet to come?

 

But you complain we have a novel that focuses on humans? in a war where literally untold billions of aforementioned humans die...

 

we have enough space marine battles bolter porn.....is it really so bad that humans get a story for once

You're not reading what I'm writing.

 

The issue isn't a human-centric novel, it's one that is both badly executed (I've wanted more humans in the heresy for a long time but this was entirely the wrong way to go about it) and sets down a ridiculous set of rules for the worldbuilding of the Siege so that canonically, you can't do anything interesting with any of the Legions outside the Palace itself.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Ugolino

[Phoebus]

I understand your points re: what you want to see, Ugolino, but — again — we’re about fifty-six novels into this series and focusing on one aspect of a siege battle in a universe where siege battles shouldn’t even be a thing is rather selective.

 

Regarding bombarding the Imperial Palace, I’ll repeat my earlier point: Void shields are as powerful as an author wants them to be. Leaving aside the fact that a bombardment need only last as long as the shields themselves do, the notion that an army of billions, supporter by the firepower of innumerable tanks, Titans, artillery and Ordinatus engines would do any less damage requires about as many mental gymnastics as, say, implementing the Legiones Astartes into an archaic siege. ;)

Edited September 21, 2019 by Phoebus