The Siege of Terra: The Lost and the Damned

[StrangerOrders]

Halbrecht in the Solar War is from Nord Afrik and has a... German? Accent? Maybe?

I thought he was Midafrik from the Oligarchies iirc? He was certainly old as heck given that he was a marshal. The Fists seem to like to recruit from there given the new recruit from there mentioning it in that one short story.

 

You also have Abdemon, one of Fulgrim's big brass being from Nordafrik. Akurduana was Turkic and Fulgrim's firstborn. 

 

We know Sejanus was black but it is never clarified where he is from, I think he might Alban though because he sported a warrior mohawk which in 30k seems mostly associated with Albia.

 

Its sort of fun that you can chart the Emp's conquests with the Legionaries. The older the legion and the older the Legionary, the closer they are going to be to the Urals where he started. 

 

I always sort of wondered though, shouldn't the oldest Terrans have really antiquated mannerisms given that they predate the wars? You see alot of them carrying over cultural artifacts (Albian Mohawks, Nordafrik facial tattoos, Turkic braids, etc) but they always speak with the same manner as modern Astartes. 

 

You'd think that you could proxy Pre-Unity Terran with borrowing some old english for flavor.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think if Qruze was the oldest of the captains in the XVIth and only a bit over a century, they’d have been out in the galaxy so long Unification vets would be very few and far between. Edited October 13, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[DarkChaplain]

I think that one's mostly down to the shifting scale in the series. By the time of Horus Rising, he wouldn't even have been through half the Great Crusade at a century, and they've since rescaled the veteran ages appropriately. We definitely do know that veterans of the Unification Wars are still around, like Astelan as a first generation First Legion dude.

[StrangerOrders]

I think that one's mostly down to the shifting scale in the series. By the time of Horus Rising, he wouldn't even have been through half the Great Crusade at a century, and they've since rescaled the veteran ages appropriately. We definitely do know that veterans of the Unification Wars are still around, like Astelan as a first generation First Legion dude.

Its more by author I think.

 

From the Forgeworld books we know that most Legions had guys from the Unity and plenty pre-Primarch.

 

Some writers for some reason make them almost unheard of while others make them regretably common (IHs for one). 

 

A few of the 200 of the Emperor's Children still lived by the time of the Heresy and we know Fulgrim was found between m830 and m835, so the youngest would be at 170 by the time of the betrayal.

[aa.logan]

 

I half agree for the reasons I've said above.

 

Chogorian being difficult is like Fenrisian being difficult. It would be hypocritical in the extreme to fault one and not comment on the goofy over-the-top accent they like to stick on wolves. I accept it because both Legions are partially treated poorly because they struggle with Gothic and the lexicon doesnt translate well. It is also repeatedly used as a plot element in both cases so it would be hilarious if that didnt carry over at all. 

 

.

 

The accent used doesn’t change when members of the same Legion are talking to each other though- there is no reason for their native tongue to sound incomprehensible to each other. I know that would make for a needlessly complicated listening experience, but it doesn’t excuse the crude parodies that appear far too often.

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

 

I half agree for the reasons I've said above.

 

Chogorian being difficult is like Fenrisian being difficult. It would be hypocritical in the extreme to fault one and not comment on the goofy over-the-top accent they like to stick on wolves. I accept it because both Legions are partially treated poorly because they struggle with Gothic and the lexicon doesnt translate well. It is also repeatedly used as a plot element in both cases so it would be hilarious if that didnt carry over at all. 

 

.

 

The accent used doesn’t change when members of the same Legion are talking to each other though- there is no reason for their native tongue to sound incomprehensible to each other. I know that would make for a needlessly complicated listening experience, but it doesn’t excuse the crude parodies that appear far too often.

That seems to do an awful lot of reading in negative intent but I want to clarify something.

 

Are you referring to performance or writing?

 

Because the writer does show a marked increase in eloquence when the Scars and Wolves are speaking among each other. It is criminal not to acknowledge that when it is a big part of Yusegai's character, he is incredibly nuanced and eloquent in his speech among his brothers with long and well thought-out sentences. When he speaks to others he is frequently frustrated at his short and jilted manner of speech. That is the Scars in macro actually, somewhat short in wording and super eloquent in their own tongue.

 

Wolves vary more wildly because some writers do treat them like idiots, but in the better (Haley and Abnett) showing for them this is quite different. They sound like they are barking whenever they arent using overly long euphemisms and being viciously curt. Meanwhile when you can actually speak their tongue the conversations get long, thoughtful and you quickly realize that it is a language meant to facilitate alternating interpretations of the same event and clarity is established through tone of metaphor. 

 

I think that making claims as to the writing is somewhat bold and requires a somewhat selective reading of BL.

 

Now as to performance, that is a different matter.

 

A lack of voice quantity is an issue, character overlap happens and most problematically different characters have a whole menagerie of voices given to them.

 

But lacking an accent in tonal and pronunciation when speaking among yourselves? That is not how language works I find.

 

I find that whenever I try to pick up a new language, folks usually have the same observations. 

 

To go back to spanish (it is my mother tongue and a dialectic nightmare, so it is easy to speak of and a good example), you can usually figure out where someone is from quickly into a conversation unless you live under a rock. A Mexican, Cuban, Argentinian and a Spaniard can each read the same sentence and they will each sound VERY different. 

 

That is because an accent doesnt equate to a mistake, it is how you are taught to speak. Sort of how you will find that the better you are with languages, the more you will find yourself picking up accents and mannerisms from where you learn (assuming you learn by living) and having them translate back into languages you learned beforehand. 

 

To use Cubans (my birthplace) as an example, other latins usually pick us out by the fact that we speak very quickly and often neglect to pronounce trailing 's' (so you sometimes cannot even tell when we are speaking in plural as opposed to singular). Meanwhile with a Mexican (going to go with central Mexico as the regional accents are somewhat different), there is an almost muscial tone of speech that you dont really see anywhere else. Then you have Spaniards which sound like they have a lisp, seriously it is so prominent that meme is that it is all the fault of a mentally deficient Habsburg. Spanish in general also conditions you to speak with a higher pitch in my experience when compared to your total vocal range (which is a nightmare in Japan for example, where you sound like you are either a cartoon character or inhaled helium, so you have to constantly strain to hide it). 

 

So if Chogorians have a guttural manner of speech (just to use an example), it would be really weird if it just vanished among themselves. It also sort of lowkey implies that the english voices don't (with respect, alot of native english speakers tend to not pick up on their own accents) and to me at least that is a bit worse, because it implies that english is just a universal average rather than one in many. 

 

If you want to point out something that is actually racist, be thankful they removed the infamous Mongol 'snicker'. It sounds bad enough out of an actual Mongol and I cringe at the notion of anyone else even trying it (although I think they would die in the attempt of reaching that pitch). 

 

BL could definitely try harder but it is a super complex conversation and one that can easily fall into ideas of 'average' and doesnt handle well the fact that learning languages tends to be a flawed and fascinating process. 

 

Funny thing, it is something that always made me like the fifth and sixth. I always felt a point of kinship in their frustration with gothic.

Edited October 13, 2019 by StrangerOrders

[aa.logan]

That is one of the most detailed and interesting posts I’ve read in a good long while. Accents and dialects are endlessly fascinating- I’m no Henry Higgins, but I can usually work out which part of my hometown someone is from based on how they say certain words. That there can be such variety within a few miles and amongst a few hundred thousand people suggests that a unified language spanning as vast an area and population as the Imperium would be an unworkable mess, but also a potentially fascinating narrative device (especially when one factors in the reliance upon visual imagery in telepathic communication). But as readers, we have to accept that Gothic exists and works. On the page, I agree, the language barriers between the Scars and other legions has been handled really well.

 

My objection is to some of the choices made with audiobooks. The narrators use English Received Pronunciation as a standard, fair enough. It works as a unifying factor and is probably nice and clear. The readers must modulate and vary their voices for different characters- otherwise the listening experience would be far less enjoyable. There are limited options available for the voice actors, I accept, and the most important factor in their choice of character voices must be clarity.

 

What I struggle with, and therefore avoid books with certain subject matters, is how awfully close the voices/accents are for some legions are to painfully racist stereotypes. The samurai in space in The Outcast Dead was just about tolerable on the page; broad brushstrokes transplants of earth cultures are an awful lot of 40k, but listening to the follow-up audio, I was incredibly uncomfortable to hear how his lines were read- it almost sounded like the narrator was pulling the corners of his eyes back to complete the effect of yellowface. The use of Slavic accents is probably just as bad to be honest, but doesn’t quite have the weight of oppression behind it.

 

Then again, I’m painfully right-on, so could be talking nonsense. I just know that if my earphones popped out and a Salamander started spouting Ebonics I’d be mortified if anyone heard that coming out of my phone.

Edited October 13, 2019 by aa.logan

[bluntblade]

Halbrecht in the Solar War is from Nord Afrik and has a... German? Accent? Maybe?

Which only gets funnier when you remember that French specifically revealed his Nordafrik origins via specifying his accent.

 

Re Sejanus' hair, I always assumed that was a Cthonian thing. I'm sure a McNeil novel has him reflect on life in the tunnels, but even if not he could always have adopted it.

 

Wraight has done some low key fixes on the Scars. The newer generations are all more fluent in Gothic than Yesugei, who was a grown man when he ascended - and I think Wraight is implying that that had an effect. Jubal, Shiban and Hibou all manage to speak to outsiders just fine.

 

Admittedly Halji doesn't, so YMMV.

Edited October 13, 2019 by bluntblade

[StrangerOrders]

That is one of the most detailed and interesting posts I’ve read in a good long while. Accents and dialects are endlessly fascinating- I’m no Henry Higgins, but I can usually work out which part of my hometown someone is from based on how they say certain words. That there can be such variety within a few miles and amongst a few hundred thousand people suggests that a unified language spanning as vast an area and population as the Imperium would be an unworkable mess, but also a potentially fascinating narrative device (especially when one factors in the reliance upon visual imagery in telepathic communication). But as readers, we have to accept that Gothic exists and works. On the page, I agree, the language barriers between the Scars and other legions has been handled really well.

 

My objection is to some of the choices made with audiobooks. The narrators use English Received Pronunciation as a standard, fair enough. It works as a unifying factor and is probably nice and clear. The readers must modulate and vary their voices for different characters- otherwise the listening experience would be far less enjoyable. There are limited options available for the voice actors, I accept, and the most important factor in their choice of character voices must be clarity.

 

What I struggle with, and therefore avoid books with certain subject matters, is how awfully close the voices/accents are for some legions are to painfully racist stereotypes. The samurai in space in The Outcast Dead was just about tolerable on the page; broad brushstrokes transplants of earth cultures are an awful lot of 40k, but listening to the follow-up audio, I was incredibly uncomfortable to hear how his lines were read- it almost sounded like the narrator was pulling the corners of his eyes back to complete the effect of yellowface. The use of Slavic accents is probably just as bad to be honest, but doesn’t quite have the weight of oppression behind it.

 

Then again, I’m painfully right-on, so could be talking nonsense. I just know that if my earphones popped out and a Salamander started spouting Ebonics I’d be mortified if anyone heard that coming out of my phone.

I do agree with you, especially on the Salamanders and Nagasena (could be wrong on his name, been a while).

 

The Salamanders should have an accent because I heavily favour the idea that while english is a reader conceit, the Imperium uses 'low gothic' as a catch all term for every possible language spoken by humanity. It even makes sense politically to claim every language is gothic because it helps bolster their legitimacy. High Gothic we know is an absolute blend due to ADB noting that Khatar is from one of the various languages collectively called 'proto-gothic'. 

 

Now, that this accent should be so odd a fit? That is odd, every language in 40k is a stand in for a mind-bending bastard of a language which should be incomprehensible in the first place but they share the pattern of wanting to invoke a feel.

 

The thing is that Nocturne is not at all African (which is admittedly a grotesquely broad term as many parts of Africa are cultural alien to each other), even if its people could be said to be distantly related. Their culture seems reminiscent of pre-Bronze Age Collapse Greece. With the focus on a shaman-priest around a communal position, very geographically-orientated notions of gods (they basically worship the volcanos as individuals) and fortress communities that are fairly centralized and communal. This even carries over to their obsessive craftsmanship, incorporation of their favoured divine imagery (even if it is fire and dragons rather than bulls and lightning) and orientation towards valour. 

 

So, it is actually more logical to stick a greek accent on the Salamanders if you want to follow the schema of reference used in every other case. Granted, the Iron Warriors should have sounded Macedonian as well.

 

Nagasena is just weird all around, I would have liked a Sengoku-Jidai based Legion but he seems like the bastard offspring of a mishmash of different ideas of what the word 'Samurai' means. He dresses like the Sengoku Jidai, talks like he is from the Edo period and has an ideology that would have fit better in the early shogunate or late Heian. He is also just dull all around but that is a different line of issue for me.

 

Not going to comment on the Slavic (or Scandinavian, BL can't decide) thing because it kind of tickles me pink how one of the more brutal cultures in history sort of gets a pass when we are pretty justifiably harsh on every other imperialist or similarly brutal empire in history (Vikings being progressive individualists (even if true) was surely a great comfort to the poor englishwoman who saw her family murdered by random giants and sold off after being put through all sorts of depravities I am sure).

Edited October 13, 2019 by StrangerOrders

[StrangerOrders]

 

Halbrecht in the Solar War is from Nord Afrik and has a... German? Accent? Maybe?

Which only gets funnier when you remember that French specifically revealed his Nordafrik origins via specifying his accent.

 

Re Sejanus' hair, I always assumed that was a Cthonian thing. I'm sure a McNeil novel has him reflect on life in the tunnels, but even if not he could always have adopted it.

 

Wraight has done some low key fixes on the Scars. The newer generations are all more fluent in Gothic than Yesugei, who was a grown man when he ascended - and I think Wraight is implying that that had an effect. Jubal, Shiban and Hibou all manage to speak to outsiders just fine.

 

Admittedly Halji doesn't, so YMMV.

 

It might have to do with aptitude and even mental wiring, some people are fantastically intelligent yet struggle with even languages in the same family as theirs.

 

With the Scars at least, I don't think having good gothic is a political asset in the modern Chapter. They are more than a touch xenophobic and I can't help but wonder if being too aligned to the outside might have some looking askance at you. Especially after the Terrans royally screwed up during the Heresy.

 

Then you have Grammaticus with like the ultimate language-hack. 

 

If we are talking english, did anyone else find it odd that Keeler doesnt have have an American or Canadian accent? She is from Merica after all.

 

For fun, I kind of wonder what accent you'd invent for Antarctica? We know that isolationist city-states was the name of the game, but I can't think of anything irl that fits that comparison other than maybe some of the more isolated pre-Incan south american states (but even that requires a very strict reading of 'strict trade' as 'no trade at all'). 

[DarkChaplain]

Bought the Audio and Kindle versions today, and already on Chapter 4. Trying to collect info and details aside from the main narrative as I go along.

 

Any update on the audiobook yet? Any fixes for the missing chapter?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Bought the Audio and Kindle versions today, and already on Chapter 4. Trying to collect info and details aside from the main narrative as I go along.

Any update on the audiobook yet? Any fixes for the missing chapter?

Mine is still duplicated in audio :(

[Indefragable]

Good heads-up on the audiobook issue.

 

Excited to get into this one, one way or another. Especially excited for Raldoron to do something befitting his in-universe reputation.

 

Question hoping for a spoiler-free answer:

 

Is there a reason Sanguinius is front-and-center on the cover?

 

Or is it more that the artist came up with a bunch of illustrations and they just threw cool ones on each of the books?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Ok, to truly be spoiler-free, lets just say that Sanguinius hasn't changed much in attitude since he was in Imperium Secundus.

[b1soul]

@StrangerOrders

"Especially after the Terrans royally screwed up during the Heresy."

 

True, but plenty of Chogorians sided with Horus. The overall leader of the pro-Horus faction was Hasik Noyan-Khan, an old guard Chogorian.

[Marshal Rohr]

Good heads-up on the audiobook issue.

 

Excited to get into this one, one way or another. Especially excited for Raldoron to do something befitting his in-universe reputation.

 

Question hoping for a spoiler-free answer:

 

Is there a reason Sanguinius is front-and-center on the cover?

 

Or is it more that the artist came up with a bunch of illustrations and they just threw cool ones on each of the books?

He has one of the best showings of any marine commander so far in the series. Sanguinius has a better showing than FtT and the Imperium Secundus arc and there’s a poignant scene where walks amongst the conscripts and they touch his wings. There hasn’t been a depiction of Sanguinius in the series that really fits how I see him, but that’s just me.

 

 

Also, my review in brief: it’s not bad. It’s definitely not worth the hate you see on other forums. I haven’t read all of Haley’s work, so I can’t say if it’s his best. The inclusion of Skraivok feels a little too close to this being a part of Haley’s Legendarium than a stand alone contribution to an independent series, but I understand it’s easier to include him than to introduce someone new and have to build their gravitas on the spot. Haley is a great narrative writer, but his dialogue always feels like it borders on disingenuous. Thing characters say to each other are almost too formal, especially between the Primarchs. The need to explain ideas to readers causes some awkward moments like where Dorn explains the webway project, while Valdor is standing there. The interactions between Dorn, the Khan, and Sanguinius as well as the mortal commanders that would’ve been preparing for this conflict for years has a touch of ‘As you know...’. The worst offender is the dialogue between the traitor Primarchs. It’s too petulant and detracts from the suspension of disbelief. The Daemon Primarchs have all become awkward inclusions, and really reduce the feeling of threat on the traitor side. That is honestly my only criticism though. The pacing is excellent. It hits all the key marks that make good narrative arcs in meaningful ways. The sub-plots all resolve nicely and add depth. The descriptions of the palace are solid if a little too vague for my detail oriented preference buts that’s on me, not Guy.

 

My take always for the series so far would be:

-More genuine dialogue

-More emphasis on daemonhood helping the Primarchs than making them one dimensional

-Less counter-intuitive wasting of troops on the traitor side, they can be callous without being tropes

-Relax the Imperials being unprepared for easy to prepare for siege strategies by the traitors for the sake of narrative tension

-Give the mortals fighting more

-Don’t make events one and done, like the air battles, they should last the duration of the Siege

Edited October 17, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[bluntblade]

@StrangerOrders

"Especially after the Terrans royally screwed up during the Heresy."

 

True, but plenty of Chogorians sided with Horus. The overall leader of the pro-Horus faction was Hasik Noyan-Khan, an old guard Chogorian.

I'm pretty sure Chogorians outnumbered Terrans in the Lodges.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Good heads-up on the audiobook issue.

 

Excited to get into this one, one way or another. Especially excited for Raldoron to do something befitting his in-universe reputation.

 

Question hoping for a spoiler-free answer:

 

Is there a reason Sanguinius is front-and-center on the cover?

 

Or is it more that the artist came up with a bunch of illustrations and they just threw cool ones on each of the books?

He has one of the best showings of any marine commander so far in the series. Sanguinius has a better showing than FtT and the Imperium Secundus arc and there’s a poignant scene where walks amongst the conscripts and they touch his wings. There hasn’t been a depiction of Sanguinius in the series that really fits how I see him, but that’s just me.

 

 

Also, my review in brief: it’s not bad. It’s definitely not worth the hate you see on other forums. I haven’t read all of Haley’s work, so I can’t say if it’s his best. The inclusion of Skraivok feels a little too close to this being a part of Haley’s Legendarium than a stand alone contribution to an independent series, but I understand it’s easier to include him than to introduce someone new and have to build their gravitas on the spot. Haley is a great narrative writer, but his dialogue always feels like it borders on disingenuous. Thing characters say to each other are almost too formal, especially between the Primarchs. The need to explain ideas to readers causes some awkward moments like where Dorn explains the webway project, while Valdor is standing there. The interactions between Dorn, the Khan, and Sanguinius as well as the mortal commanders that would’ve been preparing for this conflict for years has a touch of ‘As you know...’. The worst offender is the dialogue between the traitor Primarchs. It’s too petulant and detracts from the suspension of disbelief. The Daemon Primarchs have all become awkward inclusions, and really reduce the feeling of threat on the traitor side. That is honestly my only criticism though. The pacing is excellent. It hits all the key marks that make good narrative arcs in meaningful ways. The sub-plots all resolve nicely and add depth. The descriptions of the palace are solid if a little too vague for my detail oriented preference buts that’s on me, not Guy.

 

My take always for the series so far would be:

-More genuine dialogue

-More emphasis on daemonhood helping the Primarchs than making them one dimensional

-Less counter-intuitive wasting of troops on the traitor side, they can be callous without being tropes

-Relax the Imperials being unprepared for easy to prepare for siege strategies by the traitors for the sake of narrative tension

-Give the mortals fighting more

-Don’t make events one and done, like the air battles, they should last the duration of the Siege

 

 

Well, to touch on the "wasting of troops by the Traitors" aspect:

I thought that was all explained by it being ritualistic in nature, weakening the barriers for the Neverborn to be able to manifest. Horus has uncounted unwashed hordes, but they're literally disposable. Why not throw them into the enemy guns so that their deaths can bring the coming of your infernal allies?

[Marshal Rohr]

I know that why they did it, but it could’ve been executed in a more grounded style. We’re told the warmaster has millions of army auxilia loyal to him because they believe in him but so far the representations have been fairly uniform and cultist like instead of professional.

[Lord_Caerolion]

There was that group of traitor soldiers, the Thernian 7th, who turned traitor out of loyalty to Horus rather than being devoted Chaos cultists.

[Marshal Rohr]

And they slammed them into the ground instead of using a drop ship ;). Like I said, it’s not a big deal and the Black Books will give them a better showing. It’s just something that can be tweaked as they go along to make it feel less like a 40k Chaos invasion and more like the culmination of a political rebellion. Edited October 18, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[SkimaskMohawk]

I thought that one of the underpinning things was that the entire rebellion got twisted by chaos, like everyone just spiraled more and more. Slaves to darkness made that the entire theme of the book. Having the siege culminate with full on chaos invasion kind of fits the build up over the years of the Heresy, and also justifies the fear of Chaos going forward post-heresy.

[b1soul]

I think the invasion of Terra should feature some heavily Chaos-corrupted legions. Maybe not as corrupted as 100 years in the Eye, but they're not just non-Chaos rebels

[Marshal Rohr]

There are 4 corrupted legions at the Siege (DG, WB, WE, and EC). That’s five legions (since alphas are guaranteed to be there too) that still fight the old way. Like I said, I’m cool with the chaos stuff being there, but it should be in lesser quantities than the normal guys and legions. If anything the Night Lords in the novel did a good job assuaging a little bit of this by not being insane, but they’ll need the auxiliary forces to retain some professionalism if this isn’t just going to be 40k Ren Faire. Edited October 18, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[bluntblade]

Second that. I want to see some Cthonian Jackals and other Solar Auxilia on the traitor side, plus Byzant Janizars etc.