The Siege of Terra: The Lost and the Damned

[Scribe]

They are the vehicles that communicate the ideas of the story, but the marines themselves?

 

Obviously they will use the miniatures to tell the story, but it's not the story of Marines, if that makes sense?

 

It's the story of the Imperium.

[Dagoth Ur]

It's the death of the Emperor's Imperium and the founding myth of the Imperium of Mankind and the God-Emperor initiated, largely manipulated, led and controlled by Primarchs and Space Marines. Space Marines are intrinsically interwoven with this narrative because they laid the foundation for what was to come. At it's core, the Horus Heresy is a demi-god's struggle with its own position within the diegesis and its own eventual obsolescence. Space Marines are confronted with large-scale falibility, weakness, prospects of the future, treachery, disillusion and similar - stripped down, this is what the Heresy itself is. What came afterwards is the fallout of the heresy, not the heresy itself.

 

The Primarchs and Marines are the chief prosecutors of this war - everyone else is orbiting around them and second/third fiddle.

[Scribe]

Yes, but outside the very important showdown at the end, the whole of the Heresy (well even the showdown actually) is what?

 

Emperor vs Chaos (Horus).

 

Which is really, what 40K boils down to as well, RE: Imperium vs Chaos.

 

The whole of the mythos is us, vs our darkest failures and drives.

 

Yes, they use the Primarchs and Marines to communicate these stories and tropes, but for my dollar the best of the these stories could replace the Marines, or the Primarchs, because it's the human emotions that they communicate that matter, not that the protagonists can spit acid, or have 2 hearts.

[Marshal Rohr]

Most of the criticism revolves around the content of the human story. If the human story had instead been human normal eyes experiencing the siege and not what they were actually doing it probably would’ve been more appreciated.

[Marshal Loss]

Some good points flying around here - it isn't inaccurate to describe the HH as a story and a setting revolving around Space Marines, and in recent decades the term is all but synonymous with "the Age of the Primarchs" - but as Tony Cottrell always said at the (once yearly) "history of the heresy" seminar, the entire point of the HH's existence was to explain how a) Emperor became confined to the Golden Throne and with that b) how the Imperium of 40k came to exist. Those two points have remained the only immutable pillars of the 30k mythos since the HH's inception all those years ago.

 

Honestly though both Scribe and TO are right and their points are not mutually exclusive. It is as accurate to say that the HH is the story of Horus' rebellion as it is to say that the central narrative revolves around not what marines do but what actions led to the big E becoming the Corpse Emperor. I also agree with Rohr; criticism of human involvement in the SoT is thus far is in my view derived more from the fact that it has been executed poorly than because of its very existence, although some may disagree. I hope to see more.

 

 

Both this and, from what I've read so far, The First Wall, opt to jettison the entire character arc Perty received from French in favour of making him the petulant masochist he began the series as

 

Hijacking an old comment just to say how much I agree with this sentiment. If not for the name on the cover I never would have guessed that the author of LATD was the same author of the brilliant Perturabo novel.

[Indefragable]

Yea the back and forth between @The Observer and @Scribe has been tennis eyes for me since I agree with both points.

 

To say the Horus Heresy is not about Space Marines (and by extension Primarchs, or the vice versa) is like saying a barbecue is not about the food:

 

Yes, in a bigger picture way you can say it's a social gathering and the act of breaking bread together is one of the most universally accepted means social bonding across all human civilizations and thus we feel existentially satisfied in doing so more than it's about Sweet Baby Ray's vs Chubb's.... but come on, a barbecue is about the food and the sauce....if they weren't there, would anyone actually show up?

[Lucerne]

Human perspectives on the Heresy, and the Siege, are a great idea.

 

The problem was the execution fell flat on its face and was paired with some of the worst Marine writing in the series.

[rookie40K]

Yea the back and forth between @The Observer and @Scribe has been tennis eyes for me since I agree with both points.

 

To say the Horus Heresy is not about Space Marines (and by extension Primarchs, or the vice versa) is like saying a barbecue is not about the food:

 

Yes, in a bigger picture way you can say it's a social gathering and the act of breaking bread together is one of the most universally accepted means social bonding across all human civilizations and thus we feel existentially satisfied in doing so more than it's about Sweet Baby Ray's vs Chubb's.... but come on, a barbecue is about the food and the sauce....if they weren't there, would anyone actually show up?

For me, barbecues are about space marines. While everyone is socializing and eating, I’m in a corner somewhere checking on updates on Bolter and Chainsword. That is until my wife finds me and makes me put my phone away. Actually the ironic truth is, I was at a barbecue at my brothers in 2012, and my brother said he had a box of my stuff, which in it had the Rogue Trader book. I relapsed into a permanent 40K addiction after a 19 year break, at a barbecue.

[Indefragable]

 

Yea the back and forth between @The Observer and @Scribe has been tennis eyes for me since I agree with both points.

 

To say the Horus Heresy is not about Space Marines (and by extension Primarchs, or the vice versa) is like saying a barbecue is not about the food:

 

Yes, in a bigger picture way you can say it's a social gathering and the act of breaking bread together is one of the most universally accepted means social bonding across all human civilizations and thus we feel existentially satisfied in doing so more than it's about Sweet Baby Ray's vs Chubb's.... but come on, a barbecue is about the food and the sauce....if they weren't there, would anyone actually show up?

For me, barbecues are about space marines. While everyone is socializing and eating, I’m in a corner somewhere checking on updates on Bolter and Chainsword. That is until my wife finds me and makes me put my phone away. Actually the ironic truth is, I was at a barbecue at my brothers in 2012, and my brother said he had a box of my stuff, which in it had the Rogue Trader book. I relapsed into a permanent 40K addiction after a 19 year break, at a barbecue.

 

That is some sweet, sweet heat on that meat!

 

...glad I rolled a 6 on that analogy lol!

[rookie40K]

 

 

 

Yea the back and forth between @The Observer and @Scribe has been tennis eyes for me since I agree with both points.

 

To say the Horus Heresy is not about Space Marines (and by extension Primarchs, or the vice versa) is like saying a barbecue is not about the food:

 

Yes, in a bigger picture way you can say it's a social gathering and the act of breaking bread together is one of the most universally accepted means social bonding across all human civilizations and thus we feel existentially satisfied in doing so more than it's about Sweet Baby Ray's vs Chubb's.... but come on, a barbecue is about the food and the sauce....if they weren't there, would anyone actually show up?

For me, barbecues are about space marines. While everyone is socializing and eating, I’m in a corner somewhere checking on updates on Bolter and Chainsword. That is until my wife finds me and makes me put my phone away. Actually the ironic truth is, I was at a barbecue at my brothers in 2012, and my brother said he had a box of my stuff, which in it had the Rogue Trader book. I relapsed into a permanent 40K addiction after a 19 year break, at a barbecue.

That is some sweet, sweet heat on that meat!

 

...glad I rolled a 6 on that analogy lol!

I was laughing at the truth of it all while I typed it. It is all perspective brothers. At the root of it all, for me is space marines. Without them I’m not that interested, but I respect anyone else who loves this stuff, even if it is for other reasons. Happy New Year everyone. I hope we all get what we want in 30K/40K for 2020.

[1ncarnadine]

I was laughing at the truth of it all while I typed it. It is all perspective brothers. At the root of it all, for me is space marines. Without them I’m not that interested, but I respect anyone else who loves this stuff, even if it is for other reasons. Happy New Year everyone. I hope we all get what we want in 30K/40K for 2020.

 

I don't know if they'll kill off Erebus but we can definitely keep hoping

 

 

Anyway, finished this relatively recently on audio. I think the revolving cast really hurt there, because Jonathan Keeble was all over the place. He did a wacky daemon voice for Fulgrim that felt really off, among some other strange choices. Otherwise, I think everything's been discussed well enough and I agree with the overall sentiments. Functional, decent, not great.

Edited January 2, 2020 by LetsYouDown

[DarkChaplain]

I agree, Keeble really was weak in this one (again). His voices aren't even consistent with the way he previously performed them in other novels. Fulgrim was utterly jarring when before, he's always been smooth and silky by comparison to what we got now. I rejoice whenever he isn't at the helm these days.

[m0nolith]

A little late to the party, but I just finished it and here are my thoughts on the book:
Overall well written and enjoyable book. A good addition to the series.

The only part that irked me a little bit was ....

the fact that Dorn didnt remember seeing Vulkan in Old Earth which was probably my favorite part of that book, especially given the fact that it played on the joke that in The Emperor Gets a Text to Speech Device Vulkan loves giving hugs to everything and everyone, including Dorn
I get the fact that on twitter Haley said that Dorn was just pretending he didn't know so the Sanguinius and the Khan wouldn't be annoyed he didn't tell them, but in all honesty it seems like an oversight to me.  Still, its only a minor thing.

 

I did really like...

that one of the main characters of the novel was a simple conscript and having the siege told through his eyes, a simple basic human on the front lines of an absolutely insane war. The contrast that afforded the author was very well utilized in this case. 

 

So overall, yeah I really liked it and I'm looking forward to the next book in the SoT series.

Up next The First Wall by *looks at the author*...oh no....no!

Edited May 19, 2020 by m0nolith