Why Loyalist Legions are so scanty?

[Azorius]

It seems only the Ultramarines and Dark Angels have comparable size to larger Traitor Legions, whilst the smallest Legions are concentrated on the side of Loyalists. 

[Marshal Loss]

The Blood Angels are noted in Malevolence as possibly being smaller only than the Iron Warriors and Ultramarines. And the three legions most likely to be involved in a meatgrinder - the Iron Warriors, World Eaters and Death Guard - are all traitor, with only the former two being particularly large. It makes sense that they would be particularly adept at replacing casualties, gene-seed idiosyncrasies aside. Finally, the other two huge traitor legions, the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion, both prepared in advance for the war or had some kind of other technology to draw upon; a benefit that the Loyalists did not have. Most other Legions are around the same size. Any differences are easily explainable and justifiable.

 

In any case, I don't think it matters. The two sides don't need to be symmetrical.

[Azorius]

The Blood Angels are noted in Malevolence as possibly being smaller only than the Iron Warriors and Ultramarines.

 

In any case, I don't think it matters. The two sides don't need to be symmetrical.

 

On the other hand, it is explicitly stated they are composed of 120,000 Legionaries in the same book - and it is an average size for a Legion. 

 

Addendum: It should be noted that Luna Wolves / Sons of Horus are also a huge Legion, and actual size of Night Lords is said to be closer to the larger Legion, such as the World Eaters. 

 

Even the Emperors Children are larger than most Loyal Legions. 

 

As to the latter, I agree with you wholeheartedly. 

[Marshal Rohr]

It should also be noted the numbers are always tied to the first major event of the heresy and don't take into account the amount of recruiting each legion did during the Heresy (as noted in the Black Books). The Iron Warriors could be landing on terra with 200,000 legionaries for all we know, given their recruiting speed

[Azorius]

It should also be noted the numbers are always tied to the first major event of the heresy and don't take into account the amount of recruiting each legion did during the Heresy (as noted in the Black Books). The Iron Warriors could be landing on terra with 200,000 legionaries for all we know, given their recruiting speed

Agree. Considering Traitors initiated accelerated recruitment drive from early on, years before onset of the Heresy, the numerical disparity would doubtlessly be even more exaggerated

[Pacific81]

 

The Blood Angels are noted in Malevolence as possibly being smaller only than the Iron Warriors and Ultramarines.

 

In any case, I don't think it matters. The two sides don't need to be symmetrical.

 

On the other hand, it is explicitly stated they are composed of 120,000 Legionaries in the same book - and it is an average size for a Legion. 

 

Addendum: It should be noted that Luna Wolves / Sons of Horus are also a huge Legion, and actual size of Night Lords is said to be closer to the larger Legion, such as the World Eaters. 

 

Even the Emperors Children are larger than most Loyal Legions. 

 

As to the latter, I agree with you wholeheartedly. 

 

 

I thought the Emperor's Children were absolutely tiny? At least to begin with. 

 

Can't remember the exact quote or where I read it - they had some kind of calamity during the Unification war which meant most of their gene-seed was lost.

[Brother Pheidias]

 

 

The Blood Angels are noted in Malevolence as possibly being smaller only than the Iron Warriors and Ultramarines.

 

In any case, I don't think it matters. The two sides don't need to be symmetrical.

 

On the other hand, it is explicitly stated they are composed of 120,000 Legionaries in the same book - and it is an average size for a Legion. 

 

Addendum: It should be noted that Luna Wolves / Sons of Horus are also a huge Legion, and actual size of Night Lords is said to be closer to the larger Legion, such as the World Eaters. 

 

Even the Emperors Children are larger than most Loyal Legions. 

 

As to the latter, I agree with you wholeheartedly. 

 

 

I thought the Emperor's Children were absolutely tiny? At least to begin with. 

 

Can't remember the exact quote or where I read it - they had some kind of calamity during the Unification war which meant most of their gene-seed was lost.

 

By the heresy, they'd made up quite a bit of lost time, but I don't remember them ever being remarkably large.

[NocturnalAnimal]

Indeed, and they also lost a boatload of Marines during Istvaan III. I can’t remember, wasn’t it something like a third of their legion (between traitor casualties and culling the Loyalists)? Of course, via Fabius and his shenanigans, I think they managed to bump up their numbers throughout the Heresy.

[Indefragable]

The Fulgrim Primarchs novel (not the numbered HH series one) explicitly states that the IIIrd was woefully small compared to others at the time of Fulgrim’s rediscovery. I’m sure they grew since then, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they were always a bit on the smaller size.

 

And that is part of why Fulgrim creates and instills a culture of perfection: they have to do more with less and have to “better” than their peers to keep up.

 

[Azorius]

Emperor's Children grew into 110,000 when onset of the Heresy, as the Betrayal confirmed years ago. 

 

And yes, that makes them larger than most of the Loyalist Legions - only the Blood Angels, the Dark Angels and Ultramarines could boast more number of marines than them. And Iron Hands, if to be exact, but in this case, discrepancy is mere 3,000. 

[Elzender]

It is true that most sources show the traitor legions being generally bigger than the loyalist counterparts, which is something that also irked me a bit in the past. However, as Marshal Loss pointed, a few of the traitor legions were the ones specialized in massive infantry assaults, lending them to faster recruitment to cover casualties and to keep enough legionaries to apply their strategy at full capacity.

One hypothesis I have is that the Fists will be by far the largest loyalist legion in Terra. Even if you take into account the crusade sent to Phall, the rest of the legion was mostly unscathed during the early and mid-Heresy, other than its trip to Mars and the Alpha Legion shenanigans. Moreover, they probably turned up recruitment to 11, so I could see them close to 300k legionaries by the time the Siege of Terra begins. After all, there should be some way to balance a bit the numbers, since its a 3 vs. 6 at the very least (I'm not sure Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion and Night Lords will be commiting full legion strength to the Siege).

[Marshal Rohr]

I don’t think the Fists will make it to 300,000 thousand because that would far outstrip their ability to armor the new recruits. A space marine without power armor is a waste of resources. I could see them making it to 100k by Terra, with the armor they recovered from mars and whatever they could produce on Inwit.

[Elzender]

I don’t think the Fists will make it to 300,000 thousand because that would far outstrip their ability to armor the new recruits. A space marine without power armor is a waste of resources. I could see them making it to 100k by Terra, with the armor they recovered from mars and whatever they could produce on Inwit.

Wasn't power armour production transferred to Terra from Mars when the Martian Civil War happened, or at least a part of it? I remember they took a good amount of mkIV/VI (depending on the source/retcon), but I also remember reading that the development teams that remained loyalist and some machinery was also recovered from Mars.

If so, that is at least 5 years of power armour production basically for the Fists, maybe not 300K but I think +200k legionaries should be feasible.

[Marshal Rohr]

Also remember Fist geneseed is very prone to rejection and causes many implantees to die from the procedure. When the Fists ramped up recruitment they were burning through thousands to get one marine out of them in one of the books (iirc). I don’t think the fists need to be in the hundreds of thousands. The Blood Angels rapid implantation was faster and more successful so they could easily be 100k+, the Scars might be around that as well, and if the Fists manage to replaces the losses from Phall at the beginning of the Siege you’re still looking at the 3:1 attacker to defender ratio that the traitors would need. A million traitor legionaries vs 300,000 loyalists with comparable allied assets on both sides is plenty of room for the drama we need for the siege to be epic and give a realistic dispersal of forces over the land I posted before.

 

Edit: I’m not busting your balls or anything

[Elzender]

Oh, no worries, I see your point and I do not really have much proof to support mine, I was just proposing a possible way to balance the scales regarding marine numbers between loyalists and traitors. I am really not up to date with the BL novels so I don't really know the situation all too well.

Let me say, however, that I think the proportion of over 1000 recruits per each marine may be exagerated and I would say it is a bit of a licence from the author (if it is from the black books I will have to take it at face value, though :D). What you say about the Blood Angels certainly makes sense, but when did they reach Terra? I had the feeling they arrived shortly before the Siege, but I haven't read any of their novels or the Ruinstorm arch so any info will be certainly appreciated. If they arrived with enough time to replenish losses, then I can see them going well over 100k. My point with the Fists was that, well, they are the only loyalist legion that could actually prepare for the Siege since the early Heresy, as they were already gathering at Terra to fortify the Imperial Palace since the Emperor stepped down from leading the Great Crusade. Thus, they had the resources and time to focus on recruitment and training, as opposed to the White Scars and the Blood Angels, which had to travel back to Terra through the orchestrated campaigns to wipe them out/tie them down.

[Marshal Rohr]

The blood angels could recruit from any world they found, like they did before Sanguinius. That would actually be pretty cool AND dark. 

[carlisimo]

I’d like to think that the Traitors arrived on Terra with a 3:1 advantage in marines, the traditional rule of thumb for successfully assaulting a defended position. They don’t have to - they’ve got daemons - but I think it’d make the Siege feel right.

 

We know the Thousand Sons are greatly reduced, and the Night Lords too (I doubt they all show up). I’ll guess 50,000 legionnaires between the two. The Alpha Legion won’t play a significant role, or maybe BL will have them keep the remnants of the Space Wolves away from Terra like the old stories. That leaves six legions to do the outnumbering.

 

I haven’t read the Hidden Dagger, but I’m guessing the Death Guard, along with the Iron Warriors and World Eaters, have suffered enough casualties that they aren’t terribly large despite continuous recruitment. But they still have to be a little larger than the defending legions at Terra for the 3:1 to work. Then it’s up to the Word Bearers and Sons of Horus to make up the numbers. The Emperor’s Children are a wildcard - Fabius Bile could probably grow them quickly if he wanted to, but he’s got a lot on his plate and the legion as a whole is a disorganized mess. They only serve as a distraction during the Siege anyway.

 

On the loyalist side, I could see the White Scars doubling from ~40,000 to ~80,000. That starting figure is a guess but I suspect it’s high, if anything. Imperial Fists, maybe 200,000. The Blood Angels don’t get much time to recruit but I don’t know what their numbers were like during the events in Ruinstorm.

[Ghorgul]

Addendum: It should be noted that Luna Wolves / Sons of Horus are also a huge Legion, and actual size of Night Lords is said to be closer to the larger Legion, such as the World Eaters.

Size of Night Lords legion is quite a large question mark. My understanding from HH game books lore was they were medium-to-large in general, at least partially because large portions of the legion operated in semi-independent manner and also did new recruiting quite liberally from planets deemed suitable, instead of concentrating everything on their home planet. In short, their general recruitment process was very adaptive instead of 'dogmatic' (as I understand general legion processes were?), but all this is somewhat logically coherent with the fact that Night Lords never really operated in monolithic top-down manner. In fact Konrad Curze probably never had tight control over his legion and this was probably more of his personal choice rather than failure.

 

All this circles back to the fact that exact numbers for Night Lords probably are not available because:

1) There never was strict organization (or it faded away) after the Curze assumed control of his legion.

2) Lack of organization implies poor/non-existent bookkeeping.

3) Night Lords were practically 'renegade' already before Isstvan. I don't see why they NL units would report their numbers to anyone other than their direct superiors within the legion.

4) Combine all the previous points and it becomes quite clear while their total number is at most a guess between medium sized and one of TOP5 ones.

 

But the size of Night Lords does not really matter, they could have been by far the largest legion among legions, but what are unorganized 300k (purely arbitrary number) going to achieve if they fight against organized 50k commandeered by their Primarch while Curze goes full emo/batman/emo-batman all over Ultima Segmentum?

[Leif Bearclaw]

Why? Because the entire HH narrative seems to have shifted from 'Horus is outnumbered, hence a carefully constructed rebellion and a decapitation strike at Terra' to 'Huge  war everywhere, and the Loyalists can't catch a break'.

 

I still find it really weird that (for example) the WE and IW are still 2 of the 4 biggest Legions (ignoring the AL, because who knows, and the 'secret' WBs, because again, impossible to say) despite their horrific attrition rates, both should have been far closer to the 100k 'average' imo, just with high turnover. It's also weird that the Night Lords are larger (as the FW book makes the case that the higher estimates are more likely to be accurate) than 6 of the 8 known Loyal Legions (and tied with the BAs). Even the 'official' size of the WBs at 140k is larger than all the Loyalists bar the Ultras.

 

We know the Thousand Sons are greatly reduced, and the Night Lords too (I doubt they all show up). I’ll guess 50,000 legionnaires between the two. The Alpha Legion won’t play a significant role, or maybe BL will have them keep the remnants of the Space Wolves away from Terra like the old stories. That leaves six legions to do the outnumbering.
 

That isn't the old narrative, btw. The old version of the story flat out doesn't have the abomination of the 'Wolf Cull' (Yarant used to be a relatively minor action, only involving a single Company of Wolves, not a Legion shattering event), and significantly alters the Alaxxes fight. What was intended to be a double teaming of the AL by the Wolves and Scars is interrupted when the Scars are ordered to Terra, while the Wolves are told to draw the AL away from Terra, which they do. The Wolves then evade the AL, meet up with the DAs, and move to assist Terra .

[Ghorgul]

We all should remember that 40k and 30k lore (especially 30k) employ a lot of unreliable narrators. Much of the lore is written by imperial 'historians' or similar. In light of this we could invoker propaganda aspects of the lore. I can come up with so many reasons why Imperium would want to overreport traitor numbers while underreporting loyalist numbers.

Example of unreliable narrator:
Horus Heresy Book 4, page 145:
"The Night Lords too were dispatched on a mission far from Terra to the galaxy's Eastern Fringe, leading some to suspect that Horus was still uncertain of the motives and even allegiance of his brother Primarch and lord of the VIIIth Legiones Astartes, Konrad Curze."
Omniscient narrator would never write "leading some to suspect", omniscient narrator would report that Horus was suspicious (dot), end of discussion.

[Azorius]

We all should remember that 40k and 30k lore (especially 30k) employ a lot of unreliable narrators. Much of the lore is written by imperial 'historians' or similar. In light of this we could invoker propaganda aspects of the lore. I can come up with so many reasons why Imperium would want to overreport traitor numbers while underreporting loyalist numbers.

 

Example of unreliable narrator:

Horus Heresy Book 4, page 145:

"The Night Lords too were dispatched on a mission far from Terra to the galaxy's Eastern Fringe, leading some to suspect that Horus was still uncertain of the motives and even allegiance of his brother Primarch and lord of the VIIIth Legiones Astartes, Konrad Curze."

Omniscient narrator would never write "leading some to suspect", omniscient narrator would report that Horus was suspicious (dot), end of discussion.

I have to state this: such assumption is fanciful at best, delusional at worst. 

 

While it is true the writer is far from omniscient, he or she is very cynical and critical to the Emperor and Imperium at large, and diligently strives to maintain impartiality. And to speak candidly, I have felt the writer is actually favoring traitors over loyalists, from time to time. 

[Ghorgul]

 

We all should remember that 40k and 30k lore (especially 30k) employ a lot of unreliable narrators. Much of the lore is written by imperial 'historians' or similar. In light of this we could invoker propaganda aspects of the lore. I can come up with so many reasons why Imperium would want to overreport traitor numbers while underreporting loyalist numbers.

 

Example of unreliable narrator:

Horus Heresy Book 4, page 145:

"The Night Lords too were dispatched on a mission far from Terra to the galaxy's Eastern Fringe, leading some to suspect that Horus was still uncertain of the motives and even allegiance of his brother Primarch and lord of the VIIIth Legiones Astartes, Konrad Curze."

Omniscient narrator would never write "leading some to suspect", omniscient narrator would report that Horus was suspicious (dot), end of discussion.

I have to state this: such assumption is fanciful at best, delusional at worst. 

 

While it is true the writer is far from omniscient, he or she is very cynical and critical to the Emperor and Imperium at large, and diligently strives to maintain impartiality. And to speak candidly, I have felt the writer is actually favoring traitors over loyalists, from time to time. 

 

Yeah, might be.

 

But it's clearly implied the lore is written by imperial historians, basically people who did not experience all the events first-hand and rather report the events impartially based on various sources available.

On the case of propaganda allegation, of course great propaganda would try to appear nonpartisan and impartial. Similarly however propaganda can be written by 'honest' people who employ apparently real information.

HH lore is more reminiscent of the old 40k lore which left many things ambiguous, while modern 40k lore is more 'honest' black-and-white, but this is just my opinion.

[Tymell]

The numbers we have from BL/FW publications indicate the following figures (at the end of the Great Crusade/outset of the Heresy):

 

Emperor's Children - 110,000

Iron Warriors - ~165,000 (150,000-180,000)

Night Lords - ~105,000 (90,000-120,000)

World Eaters - 150,000

Death Guard - 95,000

Thousand Sons - ~82,000 (80,000-85,000)

Sons of Horus - ~150,000 (130,000-170,000)

Word Bearers - ~200,000 (140,000+, possibly rivalling the Ultramarines)

Alpha Legion - 180,000? (90,000-180,000, higher end likely)

 

Space Wolves - 97,000 (95,000-100,000)

Imperial Fists - 100,000

Blood Angels - 120,000

Iron Hands - 113,000

Ultramarines - 250,000

Salamanders - 89,000

Raven Guard - 80,000

 

The Dark Angels I don't think we have an exact figure for, but they are said to be one of the largest legions, I'd expect around the 150,000 mark.

 

I haven't read Malevolence yet, if anyone has and can tell us if that gives a White Scars figure, that'd be very helpful. I'll assume 100,000 for the moment.

 

Anywho, if we take those estimate figures, that gives the traitors approximately 1,237,000 vs. 1,117,000 loyalists. So, certainly the traitors likely numbered more at the end of the Great Crusade, but not -that- much, about a legion's worth. A lot of that could be put down to the greatly increased recruitment of the Word Bearers for decades before the Heresy, and the Alpha Legion potentially having far greater numbers than they let on.

[Azorius]

The Dark Angels would probably be larger than 150,000 - I anticipate 200k at the very least, precluding garrison of Caliban. 

 

The White Scars is confirmed to be around 95,000. 

 

Also, Space Wolves are said to be 95,000 to 100,000, whilst Thousand are 80,000 to 90,000, according to Inferno. 

 

According to Tempest, Alpha Legion could rival Ultramarines in terms of number with Word Bearers, and Malevolence confirmed they have the largest fleet amongst the Legions, even take Q-ships into account, also their recruitment is grossly underestimated. 

[Ghorgul]

I think it was also mentioned somewhere Sons of Horus bulked even up to 300,000 before their defeat? Can't remember the source at all right now.