In Angelus, when finally the Angelis Tenebrium are unleashed

[Azorius]

how titanic and powerful the Primaris Angelus Mortis, the First among Angels of Death, dread Seraphim mentioned in Terra Apocrypha, would be come to light do you think?

 

I would be deeply disappointment if they are turned out no more powerful than the Night Lords they are driving to extinction, and the word given by Ormand turned to ash, a baseless lie. 

[Pavement Artist]

Is the less pretentious translation :how powerful will the dark angels be in Angelus?

 

In game terms they should be on a par with every one but having different specialities. In the background, you're going to see them operating as a far more cohesive and powerful force than the night lords if not for their martial discipline alone.

 

However, you're also going to find instances where the night lords resoundly win by dint of not playing fair.

[Azorius]

Is the less pretentious translation :how powerful will the dark angels be in Angelus?

 

In game terms they should be on a par with every one but having different specialities. In the background, you're going to see them operating as a far more cohesive and powerful force than the night lords if not for their martial discipline alone.

 

However, you're also going to find instances where the night lords resoundly win by dint of not playing fair.

It seems I managed to successfully transfer mien of the Dark Angels. I'm glad - their culture and upbringing are definitely struck me as pretentious, from Terra to Caliban. Hell, both Angelis Tenebrium and Primaris Angelus Mortis are direct homage to the Black Books. 

 

It is really about background - in game, of course they'd be on a par with every other Legion. As rendingon pretty much nailed, I hope Book 9 will emphasize why 1st Legion was seen as prestigious and important instead of just being Legio with a number I. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

But they were the only ones who took it that way lol, except maybe fulgrim

[Azorius]

Fulgrim? I think DA is quite an opposite of EC. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Fulgrim was the only other one to attach significance to the number of the legions. Both the lion and fulgrim share an extreme amount of pride

[Azorius]

Both are false. The Ist and IIIth don't attach significance to number; it is XIVth. And if you read novels, then you certainly know the Lion and Fulgrim are not prideful - in fact, it could be said that Fulgrim suffers inferiority complex. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

What...? They're both extremely proud in of themselves and their accomplishments. The deathguard might attach a special significance in some short or buried dagger, but no where else that I recall.

[Pavement Artist]

I don't think skimask was talking about the importance of numbers from a numerological/spiritual stand point. I believe he was talking about the perception of the Legion numbering as 1st being best.

 

I'm not entirely certain what books you've been reading where fulgrim and the lion aren't portrayed as prideful.

[Azorius]

What...? They're both extremely proud in of themselves and their accomplishments. The deathguard might attach a special significance in some short or buried dagger, but no where else that I recall.

Mortarion and Death Guard have always been obsessed with numerology.

 

I don't think skimask was talking about the importance of numbers from a numerological/spiritual stand point. I believe he was talking about the perception of the Legion numbering as 1st being best.

 

I'm not entirely certain what books you've been reading where fulgrim and the lion aren't portrayed as prideful.

If he is referring only the First, that'd be correct. But he mentioned the Third as well, and I couldn't remember the Emperors Children attaching any significance to number three. And no, the number I indeed has special meaning in context, it isn't a mere perception. That much has been thoroughly elaborated in HH novels and Black Books. 

 

Read Palatine Phoenix, or Angels of Caliban, or Fulgrim before corruption. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Obviously the first legion was the first legion, that's the significance. But literally no one cares about the DA being the first legion outside of the DAs , except possibly fulgrim wishing his legion was numbered as the first.

 

The death guard have not always been obsessed with numerology. Afaik, mortarion only starts around molech; there's nothing in flight of the Eisenstein or scars that support your claim.

 

And this is my point that you've somehow missed, even after someone clarified it. Almost no one cares about the DA's being the first legion.

[Vykes]

I kinda agree with you, SkimaskMohawk but I do recall that while the Death Guard were accused of it early on (For the life of me I don't recall where, but I thought it was Scars).  The earlier legion doesn't seem to care much about numerology but it did get pointed out to Mortarion regarding his Deathshroud and their 49 paces rule that he was't immune to symbolism and numerology.  To which Mortarion hand waves it until that reaaaally weird pivot halfway through Vengeful Spirit at Molech.  

[Pavement Artist]

In fairness, being the first Legion does create a degree of jealousy. Even Guilliman fell victim to it unremembered empire

[Azorius]

Obviously the first legion was the first legion, that's the significance. But literally no one cares about the DA being the first legion outside of the DAs , except possibly fulgrim wishing his legion was numbered as the first.

 

The death guard have not always been obsessed with numerology. Afaik, mortarion only starts around molech; there's nothing in flight of the Eisenstein or scars that support your claim.

 

And this is my point that you've somehow missed, even after someone clarified it. Almost no one cares about the DA's being the first legion.

Wrong. Dead wrong. Everyone has cared about them, given their role as early prototype, template and test-bed of every other Legion - that is reason why being the First is important -, and their subsequent prominence as primus inter pares. Rangdan ended this prominence and only after then Legions such as Blood Angels, Ultramarines and Luna Wolves were able to catch them. 

 

As for Death Guard numerology and arrogance of Fulgrim and the Lion, I reiterate this: read books. 

[rendingon1+]

Both Fulgrim and Lion were arrogant in their own ways, it's kind of funny you say otherwise, especially about Fulgrim - arrogance and egotism were his defining personality traits later on.

 

As a First Legion fan I'd certainly like to read how EVERYONE cared about them (in what way?). Can you provide sources? Quotes would be preferable.

[Brother Tyler]

 

Obviously the first legion was the first legion, that's the significance. But literally no one cares about the DA being the first legion outside of the DAs , except possibly fulgrim wishing his legion was numbered as the first.

 

The death guard have not always been obsessed with numerology. Afaik, mortarion only starts around molech; there's nothing in flight of the Eisenstein or scars that support your claim.

 

And this is my point that you've somehow missed, even after someone clarified it. Almost no one cares about the DA's being the first legion.

Wrong. Dead wrong. Everyone has cared about them, given their role as early prototype, template and test-bed of every other Legion - that is reason why being the First is important -, and their subsequent prominence as primus inter pares. Rangdan ended this prominence and only after then Legions such as Blood Angels, Ultramarines and Luna Wolves were able to catch them.

 

It's pretty evident that the two of you are talking about two separate things. At one time, the First Legion held a position of prominence. More importantly, it wasn't the First Legion that established the pattern of the other Legions. Rather, the Principia Bellicosa built the framework. Some of that work may have been tested by the First Legion and later refined as a result. Later, once the other Legions became viable, being the "first" Legion became much less important. By the time of Horus's treachery, being the "first" Legion had become relatively unimportant. It was still a position of honour that only the Dark Angels could claim, but each of the Legions had built up their own reputations, records, and honours (e.g., it was the Imperial Fists and not the Dark Angels that served as the Emperor's praetorians, it was the Emperor's Children and not the Dark Angels that were allowed to wear the Imperial aquila). Basically, being the "first" Legion was a status symbol by the time Horus had become Warmaster - something worthy of a degree of respect, but not something that gave the First Legion more prestige than any other Legion.

 

As for Death Guard numerology and arrogance of Fulgrim and the Lion, I reiterate this: read books.

This is quite a condescending and worthless response. If you have specific sources that provide support for your argument, cite and/or quote your references as proof. Otherwise, you are only providing an unverified opinion.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Obviously the first legion was the first legion, that's the significance. But literally no one cares about the DA being the first legion outside of the DAs , except possibly fulgrim wishing his legion was numbered as the first.

 

The death guard have not always been obsessed with numerology. Afaik, mortarion only starts around molech; there's nothing in flight of the Eisenstein or scars that support your claim.

 

And this is my point that you've somehow missed, even after someone clarified it. Almost no one cares about the DA's being the first legion.

Wrong. Dead wrong. Everyone has cared about them, given their role as early prototype, template and test-bed of every other Legion - that is reason why being the First is important -, and their subsequent prominence as primus inter pares. Rangdan ended this prominence and only after then Legions such as Blood Angels, Ultramarines and Luna Wolves were able to catch them.

 

As for Death Guard numerology and arrogance of Fulgrim and the Lion, I reiterate this: read books.

Some context about ‘caring’ would be important because there is a big difference between respecting the first legion and feeling emasculated by them. You have two threads simultaneously exploring whether or not the first legion had some kind of threatening dynamic with the other legions and you kind of need to explain what the point you are after is.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's a little amusing azorius, that you seemingly keep on missing the thrust of my point, despite multiple explanations from multiple people.

 

Again, it's simply this: the dark angels aren't held in any noticeably higher regard than any other legion due to being the first legion. No legionary or high command is ever jealous of the first's "status". They were one of the more intact legions during the heresy, which is what gave them strength.

 

I'll put it like this. The glorious first, with access to every facet of proscribed weapon and technology and the tactical flexibility of the hexagrammaticon and a very large legion....was held in a stalemate by the night lords until they managed to get a literal plot device to break it. Sevetar didn't hold them in awe and wasn't resentful of their legendary status; he treated them like absolute chumps and barely afforded their legionnaires any higher regard than mortal soldiers.

 

They weren't held as anything special by their peers

[b1soul]

The First Primarch absolutely shut down the Eighth Primarch in personal combat in Prince of Crows and then yet again in Angels of Caliban...there is that

[rendingon1+]

It's a little amusing azorius, that you seemingly keep on missing the thrust of my point, despite multiple explanations from multiple people.

 

Again, it's simply this: the dark angels aren't held in any noticeably higher regard than any other legion due to being the first legion. No legionary or high command is ever jealous of the first's "status". They were one of the more intact legions during the heresy, which is what gave them strength.

 

I'll put it like this. The glorious first, with access to every facet of proscribed weapon and technology and the tactical flexibility of the hexagrammaticon and a very large legion....was held in a stalemate by the night lords until they managed to get a literal plot device to break it. Sevetar didn't hold them in awe and wasn't resentful of their legendary status; he treated them like absolute chumps and barely afforded their legionnaires any higher regard than mortal soldiers.

 

They weren't held as anything special by their peers

Obviously Azorius is wrong but the way you put it is not to my liking

 

And besides we don't know how Thramas campaign actually looked like, what objectives, forces, scenarios etc were in play. I'll hold my judgement untill I see it fleshed out. Because at the moment this campaign does not make sense considering that NL lost 20.000 to a 4.000 Ultras and allies lol.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The First Primarch absolutely shut down the Eighth Primarch in personal combat in Prince of Crows and then yet again in Angels of Caliban...there is that

 

I mean, I wasn't referring at all to personal combat. But curze also took him to a stalemate in Savage Weapons, duelled both the lion and guilliman at the same time in Unremembered Empire and defeated the Lion in a court of law in Angels of Caliban (fittingly for the Last Judge).

 

 

It's a little amusing azorius, that you seemingly keep on missing the thrust of my point, despite multiple explanations from multiple people.

 

Again, it's simply this: the dark angels aren't held in any noticeably higher regard than any other legion due to being the first legion. No legionary or high command is ever jealous of the first's "status". They were one of the more intact legions during the heresy, which is what gave them strength.

 

I'll put it like this. The glorious first, with access to every facet of proscribed weapon and technology and the tactical flexibility of the hexagrammaticon and a very large legion....was held in a stalemate by the night lords until they managed to get a literal plot device to break it. Sevetar didn't hold them in awe and wasn't resentful of their legendary status; he treated them like absolute chumps and barely afforded their legionnaires any higher regard than mortal soldiers.

 

They weren't held as anything special by their peers

Obviously Azorius is wrong but the way you put it is not to my liking

 

And besides we don't know how Thramas campaign actually looked like, what objectives, forces, scenarios etc were in play. I'll hold my judgement untill I see it fleshed out. Because at the moment this campaign does not make sense considering that NL lost 20.000 to a 4.000 Ultras and allies lol.

 

 

It was meant to be over the top lol.

 

And I agree for thramas that we have very little details, but up until the warp-engine is acquired both Corswain and the lion think the Angels and Night Lords are deadlocked and it will be "war without end" and that "for every victory we claim,  Curze gifts us with a loss in return". It's pretty unequivocal about it in Savage Weapons.

 

Now I hate Pharos, but it's what we have. 20000 Night Lords made it under the leadership of one of the kyroptera and got dunked at almost all points by a much smaller force. Maybe he gathered the least disciplined, most gang-scum portion of the legion? Because from the brief in Savage Weapons, obviously the VIIIth was highly competent when used as a cohesive force with proper leadership in the form of the primarch and Sevetar 

[Azorius]

 

The First Primarch absolutely shut down the Eighth Primarch in personal combat in Prince of Crows and then yet again in Angels of Caliban...there is that

 

I mean, I wasn't referring at all to personal combat. But curze also took him to a stalemate in Savage Weapons, duelled both the lion and guilliman at the same time in Unremembered Empire and defeated the Lion in a court of law in Angels of Caliban (fittingly for the Last Judge).

 

 

It's a little amusing azorius, that you seemingly keep on missing the thrust of my point, despite multiple explanations from multiple people.

 

Again, it's simply this: the dark angels aren't held in any noticeably higher regard than any other legion due to being the first legion. No legionary or high command is ever jealous of the first's "status". They were one of the more intact legions during the heresy, which is what gave them strength.

 

I'll put it like this. The glorious first, with access to every facet of proscribed weapon and technology and the tactical flexibility of the hexagrammaticon and a very large legion....was held in a stalemate by the night lords until they managed to get a literal plot device to break it. Sevetar didn't hold them in awe and wasn't resentful of their legendary status; he treated them like absolute chumps and barely afforded their legionnaires any higher regard than mortal soldiers.

 

They weren't held as anything special by their peers

Obviously Azorius is wrong but the way you put it is not to my liking

 

And besides we don't know how Thramas campaign actually looked like, what objectives, forces, scenarios etc were in play. I'll hold my judgement untill I see it fleshed out. Because at the moment this campaign does not make sense considering that NL lost 20.000 to a 4.000 Ultras and allies lol.

 

 

It was meant to be over the top lol.

 

And I agree for thramas that we have very little details, but up until the warp-engine is acquired both Corswain and the lion think the Angels and Night Lords are deadlocked and it will be "war without end" and that "for every victory we claim,  Curze gifts us with a loss in return". It's pretty unequivocal about it in Savage Weapons.

 

Now I hate Pharos, but it's what we have. 20000 Night Lords made it under the leadership of one of the kyroptera and got dunked at almost all points by a much smaller force. Maybe he gathered the least disciplined, most gang-scum portion of the legion? Because from the brief in Savage Weapons, obviously the VIIIth was highly competent when used as a cohesive force with proper leadership in the form of the primarch and Sevetar 

 

 

There is a huge inconsistency of performance of Curze, to say the least. And cited paragraph is purely a poetic metaphor. And remember, what information we know about Thramas is penned by the author of Night Lords trilogy, thus it could well be biased. 

 

And nope. We know next to nothing about Thramas - actually, it is the least explored major conflict of the HH - and how the NL held off for three years against supposedly (and supposedly - since it seems like in Thramas, the First held none meaningful numerical advantage at all, for whatever reasons) superior force. Also, I can't remember who Sebatar doesn't treat like chumps or mere mortals, save for the very best among the Legions like Corswain or Sigismund. 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

The First Primarch absolutely shut down the Eighth Primarch in personal combat in Prince of Crows and then yet again in Angels of Caliban...there is that

 

I mean, I wasn't referring at all to personal combat. But curze also took him to a stalemate in Savage Weapons, duelled both the lion and guilliman at the same time in Unremembered Empire and defeated the Lion in a court of law in Angels of Caliban (fittingly for the Last Judge).

 

 

It's a little amusing azorius, that you seemingly keep on missing the thrust of my point, despite multiple explanations from multiple people.

 

Again, it's simply this: the dark angels aren't held in any noticeably higher regard than any other legion due to being the first legion. No legionary or high command is ever jealous of the first's "status". They were one of the more intact legions during the heresy, which is what gave them strength.

 

I'll put it like this. The glorious first, with access to every facet of proscribed weapon and technology and the tactical flexibility of the hexagrammaticon and a very large legion....was held in a stalemate by the night lords until they managed to get a literal plot device to break it. Sevetar didn't hold them in awe and wasn't resentful of their legendary status; he treated them like absolute chumps and barely afforded their legionnaires any higher regard than mortal soldiers.

 

They weren't held as anything special by their peers

Obviously Azorius is wrong but the way you put it is not to my liking

 

And besides we don't know how Thramas campaign actually looked like, what objectives, forces, scenarios etc were in play. I'll hold my judgement untill I see it fleshed out. Because at the moment this campaign does not make sense considering that NL lost 20.000 to a 4.000 Ultras and allies lol.

 

 

It was meant to be over the top lol.

 

And I agree for thramas that we have very little details, but up until the warp-engine is acquired both Corswain and the lion think the Angels and Night Lords are deadlocked and it will be "war without end" and that "for every victory we claim,  Curze gifts us with a loss in return". It's pretty unequivocal about it in Savage Weapons.

 

Now I hate Pharos, but it's what we have. 20000 Night Lords made it under the leadership of one of the kyroptera and got dunked at almost all points by a much smaller force. Maybe he gathered the least disciplined, most gang-scum portion of the legion? Because from the brief in Savage Weapons, obviously the VIIIth was highly competent when used as a cohesive force with proper leadership in the form of the primarch and Sevetar 

 

 

There is a huge inconsistency of performance of Curze, to say the least. And cited paragraph is purely a poetic metaphor. And remember, what information we know about Thramas is penned by the author of Night Lords trilogy, thus it could well be biased. 

 

And nope. We know next to nothing about Thramas - actually, it is the least explored major conflict of the HH - and how the NL held off for three years against supposedly (and supposedly - since it seems like in Thramas, the First held none meaningful numerical advantage at all, for whatever reasons) superior force. Also, I can't remember who Sebatar doesn't treat like chumps or mere mortals, save for the very best among the Legions like Corswain or Sigismund. 

 

 

Savage Weapons was written with the explicit intent of the author to give the Dark Angels a good showing. 

[Brother Styphus]

We know the general idea of how fighting I Thramas went down. NL jump into a system, massacre the population and mess up supply lines, then run away when DA arrive. It was interstellar guerrilla warfare, which is hard to counter if you have no idea where the NL are going to strike next. Once they had the warp engine, the DA trashed the NL fleet.

[Mango Polo]

This thread has been surprisingly hilarious to follow